C'mon people, the class doesn't need to be reworked. DH is an aggro class, that is its class identity, and as such it has a ton of aggro tools and a few other tools like lifesteal and silence to help support it. It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". If anything needa a nerf it is the Skull of Gul'dan. Change it back to 5 and add outcast to the second effect. That is all. Not every good card needs a nerf.
DH has six card draw-cards, of which three are absolute staples in tempo DH. Another one is often played as well. These confer for the most part little to no tempo loss. The other classes are stuck with card draw-cards that are barely playable in any deck (compare Greyheart Sage to Crimson Sigil Runner. Skull is hardly the lone offender.
C'mon people, the class doesn't need to be reworked. DH is an aggro class, that is its class identity, and as such it has a ton of aggro tools and a few other tools like lifesteal and silence to help support it. It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". If anything needa a nerf it is the Skull of Gul'dan. Change it back to 5 and add outcast to the second effect. That is all. Not every good card needs a nerf.
DH has six card draw-cards, of which three are absolute staples in tempo DH. Another one is often played as well. These confer for the most part little to no tempo loss. The other classes are stuck with card draw-cards that are barely playable in any deck (compare Greyheart Sage to Crimson Sigil Runner. Skull is hardly the lone offender.
Yea DH does have 6 not three. Turns out too you can run two copies so it can be up to 12!
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.
Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.
Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"
In no way was that clear from what he said - quite the opposite: "It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". Class is in the thread title. It's in his post.
And who's being technical, if the argument is "Yes, DH have too much card draw, but hey - they don't play all of it"?
I agree about the "legend"-argument. Not one I would use either, mostly because I'm not always legend myself at the end of the month.
Sacrifical Pact should never have been nerfed, yes it's a clunky tool to keep them in line but i still can't beleive people didn't see the conequences of that nerf with DH as it stands, It was pretty obvious to me. No neutral demon hate so sac pact was a must.
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.
Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"
In no way was that clear from what he said - quite the opposite: "It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". Class is in the thread title. It's in his post.
And who's being technical, if the argument is "Yes, DH have too much card draw, but hey - they don't play all of it"?
I agree about the "legend"-argument. Not one I would use either, mostly because I'm not always legend myself at the end of the month.
I interpreted it as "it has three card draws" in Tempo DH specifically, not the whole class, and c'mon. You either assume he's a complete idiot that can't open the client and count, or that interpretation was the only way what he said made any sense.
And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.
Also, DH's 6 card draws could be all extremely good for all I care (and you guys are right, they are. I'd kill for something like Feast of Souls in Hunter LOL), but he's not ever going to run ALL 6 in a single deck because there's a point where it's simply too much. It doesn't make sense to rage about cards that aren't even currently used. Besides, Skull is the only real issue here in term of how powerful it is.
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.
Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"
In no way was that clear from what he said - quite the opposite: "It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". Class is in the thread title. It's in his post.
And who's being technical, if the argument is "Yes, DH have too much card draw, but hey - they don't play all of it"?
I agree about the "legend"-argument. Not one I would use either, mostly because I'm not always legend myself at the end of the month.
I interpreted it as "it has three card draws" in Tempo DH specifically, not the whole class, and c'mon. You either assume he's a complete idiot that can't open the client and count, or that interpretation was the only way what he said made any sense.
And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.
Also, DH's 6 card draws could be all extremely good for all I care (and you guys are right, they are. I'd kill for something like Feast of Souls in Hunter LOL), but he's not ever going to run ALL 6 in a single deck because there's a point where it's simply too much. It doesn't make sense to rage about cards that aren't even currently used. Besides, Skull is the only real issue here in term of how powerful it is.
I've meant tempo DH. I see how the lack of context caused confusion.
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.
Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"
In no way was that clear from what he said - quite the opposite: "It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". Class is in the thread title. It's in his post.
And who's being technical, if the argument is "Yes, DH have too much card draw, but hey - they don't play all of it"?
I agree about the "legend"-argument. Not one I would use either, mostly because I'm not always legend myself at the end of the month.
I interpreted it as "it has three card draws" in Tempo DH specifically, not the whole class, and c'mon. You either assume he's a complete idiot that can't open the client and count, or that interpretation was the only way what he said made any sense.
And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.
Also, DH's 6 card draws could be all extremely good for all I care (and you guys are right, they are. I'd kill for something like Feast of Souls in Hunter LOL), but he's not ever going to run ALL 6 in a single deck because there's a point where it's simply too much. It doesn't make sense to rage about cards that aren't even currently used. Besides, Skull is the only real issue here in term of how powerful it is.
LOL... you know people even think Skull can be cut off the decks... right? I mean they wont cut it cuz there is no other better card but that mean Skull is not super OP like everyone whine about it.
Sacrifical Pact should never have been nerfed, yes it's a clunky tool to keep them in line but i still can't beleive people didn't see the conequences of that nerf with DH as it stands, It was pretty obvious to me. No neutral demon hate so sac pact was a must.
Sacrifical Pact should never have been nerfed, yes it's a clunky tool to keep them in line but i still can't beleive people didn't see the conequences of that nerf with DH as it stands, It was pretty obvious to me. No neutral demon hate so sac pact was a must.
Agree... Sacrifical Pact should never been printed as it was.
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
\bet you will tell this to all that pro players in high legend who think DH is ok or... not even that good anymore?
just stop being big salty cry baby and play the game... or dont if you dont like it. Cuz your bitching is boring...
And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.
You're misreading my argument. I didn't say quality doesn't matter - but neither did I say the less played cards are bad, in DH's case. You're telling me Spectral Sight wouldn't be more or less a staple in most aggro/tempo decks for any other class than DH (where it is, yes, falling out of most lists)?
I take that is indicating DH is way over the line in terms of card drawing ability for an intuitively aggressive class. Imagine Blizzard giving hunter any real card draw outside of Tracking.
And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.
You're misreading my argument. I didn't say quality doesn't matter - but neither did I say the less played cards are bad, in DH's case. You're telling me Spectral Sight wouldn't be more or less a staple in most aggro/tempo decks for any other class than DH (where it is, yes, falling out of most lists)?
I take that is indicating DH is way over the line in terms of card drawing ability for an intuitively aggressive class. Imagine Blizzard giving hunter any real card draw outside of Tracking.
Anyways, I was just trying to remove the focus from the "OMG 6 draw cards and they're all good!" argument the other user was making, which is imho completely irrelevant. The strength or oppressiveness or whatever you wanna call it of the current top tempo/aggro DH deck, is definitely not predicated on three other cards they're not even running, so unless one wants to rant against DH as a class instead of the specific archetype/deck being allegedly OP there's literally no point in discussing them.
As for Spectral Sight, yes it could easily see play in aggro/tempo list for other classes, but I think you're overestimating it. In most other decks it would be just a 2-mana draw-1 (bad) that occasionally becomes a better Arcane Intellect (good), but it's not like aggro decks in the past never had better options (the aforementioned Hunter combo, stuff like Cristology or Divine Favor in Pala...). Skull aside, the other card draw options DH has are not that crazy taken singularly.
Taken singularly, I agree that Skull is the only clear nerf candidate. The problem in my eyes is the compound effect when an aggro deck is afforded 6 copies of card draw that it can viably run (and options for even more, if it would like them).
Aggro pala decks, which has reigned at tier one in many metas in various builds, always relied on two copies of one draw effect. First it was Divine Favor, then Crystology. That meant it could run out of steam easily, if those two copies weren't drawn. Same has usually been true for other aggo decks, too. But DH, due to the reason stated above, just doesn't run out of steam. And even though the nerfs have dealt with a lot of the tempo issues with DH, they're still fundamentally an aggro deck that can get through most of its deck with ease, most games, not going in to top deck mode until way later than other aggressive decks do. And that's what annoys me.
I understand your frustration at the not running out of steam part, and in part I share the same feeling when I face DH, but at this point in the game an aggro deck that can't reliably draw is, well... just not gonna work. See Murloc Pala. Even Hunter right now works basically just because they received Scavenger's Ingenuity to complement Tracking, and both cards are actually great. I guess it's because I'm a returning player and I have a different perspective (meaning that you guys had more time to get "used" to the following), but you really have to consider what a new class like DH would have to face if it wasn't super powerful in at least one aspect (in this case, card drawing):
- 7-mana draw 4 cards, make them cost 0, equip a free Arcanite Reaper, get 5 armor, change your now-irrelevant hero power to an infinite value-generating one... and it's not even the strongest play of that deck
- 2-mana 1/5 basically irremovable on curve battlecry: play infinite secrets from other classes + 1-mana targetable Freezing Trap on a stick just because
- turn 7 or something 3/4-card combo with the main piece being able to be double-tutored: gain 15+ armor, generate bombs, generate a mini board while clearing the opponent's, draw 3-4 cards. And that's just the "defensive" combo, not counting the burst ones that shares some of the same combo pieces
- the other aggressive class having, among other things, a 3-mana 3/infinite weapon and a 5-mana 6/5 that casts a free Deadly Shot
- infinite boards of reborn-taunts with either deathrattle-heals or cast Deadly Shot in a class that has now so much redundancy in his heal / removal / aoe toolset that certain games might as well start on turn 5
That is to say that DH is overtuned, alright, but it's like only a tiny notch above its competition, not in completely another league as some people are saying. The bar is set very high nowadays, and if you remove DH's strengths, it would be just another trash aggro deck like Murloc Pala.
But note that all of the examples you just listed either require considerable setup and deck restriction (Galakrond), are conditional (Rotnest Drake and Stunner), or a multiple-card combination like warrior with Risky Skipper + Armorsmith and/or Wrangler. That's not the case for DH - unless you cast outcast, which can hardly be considered much of a condition in this sort of deck.
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DH has six card draw-cards, of which three are absolute staples in tempo DH. Another one is often played as well. These confer for the most part little to no tempo loss. The other classes are stuck with card draw-cards that are barely playable in any deck (compare Greyheart Sage to Crimson Sigil Runner. Skull is hardly the lone offender.
Yea DH does have 6 not three. Turns out too you can run two copies so it can be up to 12!
DH ruined Hearthstone for me...I had to unninstal it, but maybe I will come back when they delete it from game...maybe
i loved this game
They can barely balanced nine classes and then they thought it’s a good idea to add another. What a joke
I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.
The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/212005-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-steam-mega-salty?page=837
Wiggy, as apparent content creators we should collab on our platinum podcast next week, ok?
Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.
Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"
I'm down. Currently stuck between Plat 4-5, with no end in sight.
In no way was that clear from what he said - quite the opposite: "It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". Class is in the thread title. It's in his post.
And who's being technical, if the argument is "Yes, DH have too much card draw, but hey - they don't play all of it"?
I agree about the "legend"-argument. Not one I would use either, mostly because I'm not always legend myself at the end of the month.
Stop crying and pick priest ?
Sacrifical Pact should never have been nerfed, yes it's a clunky tool to keep them in line but i still can't beleive people didn't see the conequences of that nerf with DH as it stands, It was pretty obvious to me. No neutral demon hate so sac pact was a must.
I interpreted it as "it has three card draws" in Tempo DH specifically, not the whole class, and c'mon. You either assume he's a complete idiot that can't open the client and count, or that interpretation was the only way what he said made any sense.
And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.
Also, DH's 6 card draws could be all extremely good for all I care (and you guys are right, they are. I'd kill for something like Feast of Souls in Hunter LOL), but he's not ever going to run ALL 6 in a single deck because there's a point where it's simply too much. It doesn't make sense to rage about cards that aren't even currently used. Besides, Skull is the only real issue here in term of how powerful it is.
I've meant tempo DH. I see how the lack of context caused confusion.
LOL... you know people even think Skull can be cut off the decks... right? I mean they wont cut it cuz there is no other better card but that mean Skull is not super OP like everyone whine about it.
Agree... Sacrifical Pact should never been printed as it was.
\bet you will tell this to all that pro players in high legend who think DH is ok or... not even that good anymore?
just stop being big salty cry baby and play the game... or dont if you dont like it. Cuz your bitching is boring...
You're misreading my argument. I didn't say quality doesn't matter - but neither did I say the less played cards are bad, in DH's case. You're telling me Spectral Sight wouldn't be more or less a staple in most aggro/tempo decks for any other class than DH (where it is, yes, falling out of most lists)?
I take that is indicating DH is way over the line in terms of card drawing ability for an intuitively aggressive class. Imagine Blizzard giving hunter any real card draw outside of Tracking.
I don't have to imagine, I was around when both Starving Buzzard and Unleash the Hounds used to cost 2 xD
Anyways, I was just trying to remove the focus from the "OMG 6 draw cards and they're all good!" argument the other user was making, which is imho completely irrelevant. The strength or oppressiveness or whatever you wanna call it of the current top tempo/aggro DH deck, is definitely not predicated on three other cards they're not even running, so unless one wants to rant against DH as a class instead of the specific archetype/deck being allegedly OP there's literally no point in discussing them.
As for Spectral Sight, yes it could easily see play in aggro/tempo list for other classes, but I think you're overestimating it. In most other decks it would be just a 2-mana draw-1 (bad) that occasionally becomes a better Arcane Intellect (good), but it's not like aggro decks in the past never had better options (the aforementioned Hunter combo, stuff like Cristology or Divine Favor in Pala...). Skull aside, the other card draw options DH has are not that crazy taken singularly.
Taken singularly, I agree that Skull is the only clear nerf candidate. The problem in my eyes is the compound effect when an aggro deck is afforded 6 copies of card draw that it can viably run (and options for even more, if it would like them).
Aggro pala decks, which has reigned at tier one in many metas in various builds, always relied on two copies of one draw effect. First it was Divine Favor, then Crystology. That meant it could run out of steam easily, if those two copies weren't drawn. Same has usually been true for other aggo decks, too. But DH, due to the reason stated above, just doesn't run out of steam. And even though the nerfs have dealt with a lot of the tempo issues with DH, they're still fundamentally an aggro deck that can get through most of its deck with ease, most games, not going in to top deck mode until way later than other aggressive decks do. And that's what annoys me.
I understand your frustration at the not running out of steam part, and in part I share the same feeling when I face DH, but at this point in the game an aggro deck that can't reliably draw is, well... just not gonna work. See Murloc Pala. Even Hunter right now works basically just because they received Scavenger's Ingenuity to complement Tracking, and both cards are actually great. I guess it's because I'm a returning player and I have a different perspective (meaning that you guys had more time to get "used" to the following), but you really have to consider what a new class like DH would have to face if it wasn't super powerful in at least one aspect (in this case, card drawing):
- 7-mana draw 4 cards, make them cost 0, equip a free Arcanite Reaper, get 5 armor, change your now-irrelevant hero power to an infinite value-generating one... and it's not even the strongest play of that deck
- 2-mana 1/5 basically irremovable on curve battlecry: play infinite secrets from other classes + 1-mana targetable Freezing Trap on a stick just because
- turn 7 or something 3/4-card combo with the main piece being able to be double-tutored: gain 15+ armor, generate bombs, generate a mini board while clearing the opponent's, draw 3-4 cards. And that's just the "defensive" combo, not counting the burst ones that shares some of the same combo pieces
- the other aggressive class having, among other things, a 3-mana 3/infinite weapon and a 5-mana 6/5 that casts a free Deadly Shot
- infinite boards of reborn-taunts with either deathrattle-heals or cast Deadly Shot in a class that has now so much redundancy in his heal / removal / aoe toolset that certain games might as well start on turn 5
That is to say that DH is overtuned, alright, but it's like only a tiny notch above its competition, not in completely another league as some people are saying. The bar is set very high nowadays, and if you remove DH's strengths, it would be just another trash aggro deck like Murloc Pala.
Power creep is a thing, for sure.
But note that all of the examples you just listed either require considerable setup and deck restriction (Galakrond), are conditional (Rotnest Drake and Stunner), or a multiple-card combination like warrior with Risky Skipper + Armorsmith and/or Wrangler. That's not the case for DH - unless you cast outcast, which can hardly be considered much of a condition in this sort of deck.