October Hearthstone Game Mechanics Update
In Hearthstone's October Patch we're getting an update to a couple of game mechanics. The goal behind these changes is to make the game work more intuitively. Core gameplay is not being changed, only rare edge-cases.
Ultimately, triggers will now be validated before they activate, so new triggers introduced onto the board during a chain of events will no longer fire. Watch the video below or read the huge informative text by Josh Durica and Daxxarri if you want to get more in-depth into the changes.
Josh Durica on Evolve
A change in the future will ensure Evolve effects aren't going to activate any summon triggers.
Quote from Josh DuricaThis mechanic change actually does not affect the Apothecary/Thrall interaction because that’s due to a different issue involving evolve effects activating certain summon triggers. However, we ARE specifically changing Apothecary in the next patch, so that it will no longer trigger off evolve effects.
Additionally, while it won’t make the next patch, we’re planning to make sure evolve effects won’t activate any summon triggers in the future.
Hearthside Chat with Josh Durica: Game Mechanics Update
Join Hearthstone Gameplay Engineer Josh Durica as he gives you an overview of what to expect from the game mechanics changes coming in Hearthstone’s October 2017 update!
In-Depth Explanation of Changes
Quote from Josh Durica and DaxxarriHearthstone has a lot going on under the hood. The cause-and-effect relationships when cards are played are relatively straightforward and easy to predict, but because of the way certain events are timed, some very surprising things can happen in rare circumstances. We want cards to work the way that you guess they might—in other words, we want the game to work intuitively.
In the upcoming patch, we’re making some changes in pursuit of that goal. We want Hearthstone to continue to be strategically deep: a game of careful choices, calculated risks, and exciting events. So we want to be extra clear that this update isn’t a change in depth; instead it’s one step in an ongoing effort improve Hearthstone’s mechanics.
Hearthstone’s core gameplay won't change, but what will change are some rare edge-cases.
Please be aware: what follows is a detailed look at Hearthstone’s mechanics by Hearthstone Gameplay Engineer Josh Durica. If you want to delve into the nitty-gritty details regarding how this change will work, read on.
First, A Glossary
Event
Events are interactions that occur throughout gameplay that can cause triggers to activate when they happen.
Example Events:
- Whenever a Card is Played
- After a Card is Played
- Deathrattle (When this minion dies)
- Whenever a Minion Takes Damage
- At the End of Your Turn
Trigger
A trigger has two parts: an event (usually starts with “Whenever”, “After”, or “At”), and an effect. Sometimes triggers can also have a condition (usually noted with “if” or “while”, but sometimes noted by qualifiers like “your”).
Example triggers:
- Whenever you cast a spell, gain +1 Attack.
- After you cast a spell, deal 1 damage to ALL minions.
- At the end of your turn, give another random friendly minion +1 Health.
- If you control a Secret at the end of your turn, gain +2/+2.
Zone
In Hearthstone, there are three zones where triggers can happen, and they happen in order: First, any triggers in the Battlefield, then those that occur in a player’s Hand, and finally those that belong to cards in a player’s Deck.
Sequence
Whenever an action is taken, Hearthstone executes a sequence of steps to resolve what happens.
Here’s a simplified example sequence:
- ACTION: A card is played (this begins the sequence)
- EVENT: Whenever A Card is Played
o Whenever A Card is Playedtriggers
resolve
- Card ability activates
- EVENT: After a Card is Played event occurs
o After a Card is Playedtriggers
resolve
Here’s what that sequence would look like using actual cards, if you had a Questing Adventurer and a Flamewaker on the board, and then played Frostbolt:
- ACTION: Frostbolt is played (this begins the sequence)
- EVENT: Whenever a Card is Played triggers resolve
o Questing Adventurer gains +1/+1
- Frostbolt’s text resolves: Deal 3 damage and freeze
- EVENT: After a Card is Played triggers resolve
o Flamewaker shoots two missilesThis is a simple example, but a sequence can incorporate many events and triggers.
Keep in mind that dealing damage, destroying a minion, and other things can interrupt sequences with new sequences, like in this more detailed example:
- ACTION: Frostbolt is played (this begins the sequence)
- EVENT: Whenever a Card is Played triggers resolve
o Questing Adventurer gains +1/+1
- Frostbolt’s text resolves: Deal 3 damage and freeze
o NEW SEQUENCE: Damage dealtEVENT:
Whenever a Minion Takes Damage triggers
resolve
- EVENT: After a Card is Played triggers resolve
o Flamewaker shoots 1 missile
- NEW SEQUENCE: Damage dealt
- EVENT: Whenever a Card Takes Damage triggers resolve
o Flamewaker shoots another missile
- NEW SEQUENCE: Damage dealt
- EVENT: Whenever a Card Takes Damage triggers resolve
In Pursuit of the Goal
If you watched the video in our recent blog post, then you saw two different examples of cards triggering in counter-intuitive ways because they weren’t present when the sequence that activated them took place. That sets the stage for the primary goal we wanted to accomplish with these changes:
If you want to trigger off something, you need to be present and valid when that something first happens.
A more technical way to say this is: In order for a trigger to activate from a sequence, it needs to be present and valid at the time the sequence began.
This means any card featuring a trigger that appears in the middle of a sequencecan’t activate during that sequence. So, when you play a card (or when a card is destroyed, or an attack occurs, etc.) you only need to consider what is currently on the board instead of guessing what the board state might be in the middle of the sequence. The Mindgames + Wild Pyromancer interaction showcased in the video is an example of an interaction improved by this change.
The valid qualifier is more subtle, but equally important. Before any trigger can activate, it needs to be validated. Each trigger has its own specific validation step, which allows the trigger to filter when it should and shouldn’t activate. For example, the Whenever a Card is Played event occurs when any card of any type (Minion, Spell, Weapon, etc.) is played. However, we want a card like Flamewaker to only triggerwhen a friendly spell is cast, so the Flamewaker’s validation step checks the card type and controller of the card played. In other words, Flamewaker’s trigger is only valid if the card played was a spell cast by Flamewaker’s controller.
Before our changes, we would validate triggers whenever their related eventoccurred, even if that was in the middle of the sequence. After the mechanics update, all triggers are validated when the sequence begins, and then they are only allowed to activate if they were valid from the start.
For further insight, let’s look at a bug that will be addressed by the update:
Currently, if you have a Djinni of Zephyrs on the board and cast Entomb on an enemy minion, your Djinni of Zephyrs will trigger, sending itself back to your deck. Not great for you or the Djinni! Djinni of Zephyrs triggers off the After a Card is Played event, and his validation step should only pass if the card played was a spell cast on a different friendly minion. Entomb is a spell, but it was cast on an enemy minion, so why does Djinni trigger?
Remember: the After a Card is Played event occurs after the ability on the played card resolves. In this case, that card is Entomb, and its ability moves the enemy minion into your deck. When the enemy minion enters your deck, it becomes a friendly minion. So, by the time the After a Card is Played event occurs, Djinni’s trigger is valid, because the minion is now friendly.
After the mechanics update, Djinni’s trigger is validated at the beginning of the sequence when the enemy minion is still on the battlefield, and because the triggerisn’t valid at that point (since Entomb counts as being cast on an enemy minion), it’s prevented from triggering when the After a Card is Played event occurs.
There is one final change we should mention, which is a tweak to when we validate triggers across different zones. Currently, the order in which triggers are validatedand activated looks like this:
1) Validate Player 1 Battlefield triggers and then activate those that are valid.
2) Validate Player 1 Hand triggers and then activate those that are valid.
3) Validate Player 1 Deck triggers and then activate those that are valid.
4) Validate Player 2 Battlefield triggers and then activate those that are valid.
5) Validate Player 2 Hand triggers and then activate those that are valid.
6) Validate Player 2 Deck triggers and then activate those that are valid.
That approach meant new triggers could appear in the middle of a sequence and still be activated, and a trigger’s validation could even be affected by previous triggers’activations. The Bolvar Fordragon/Spirit Echo interaction detailed in the video was an example of a weird interaction caused by this.
After the update, the order now looks like this:
1) Validate all Battlefield triggers
2) Validate all Hand triggers
3) Validate all Deck triggers
4) Activate Player 1 valid Battlefield triggers
5) Activate Player 1 valid Hand triggers
6) Activate Player 1 valid Deck triggers
7) Activate Player 2 valid Battlefield triggers
8) Activate Player 2 valid Hand triggers
9) Activate Player 2 valid Deck triggers
This means all triggers are validated before any trigger is allowed to activate. Since all triggers are validated using the same game state, then triggers that appear in the middle aren’t allowed to fire. It’s important to note that the order in which triggersare activated is unchanged.
Here are some more examples of sequences and their results before and after the mechanics update:
Card Played
Example Interaction:
Player 1 has a Mad Scientist on the board, and a Mirror Entity in their deck.
Player 2 plays Stampeding Kodo.
Before Update
1) Stampeding Kodo kills Mad Scientist.
2) Mad Scientist pulls Mirror Entity into play.
3) Mirror Entity triggers, copying Stampeding Kodo.
After Update
1) Stampeding Kodo kills Mad Scientist.
2) Mad Scientist pulls Mirror Entity into play.
3) Mirror Entity does NOT trigger, because it did not exist when Stampeding Kodo was played.
Minion Destroyed
Example Interaction:
Player 1 has a Piloted Sky Golem and a Wisp on the board (played in that order).
Player 1 plays Deathwing.
The Piloted Sky Golem spawn a Cult Master from its Deathrattle.
Before Update:
The Cult Master's power triggers off of the Wisp's death, and Player 1 draws a card.
After Update:
The Cult Master does not trigger off the Wisp's death, because it wasn’t present to see the Wisp destroyed.
Summon Minion
Example Interaction:
Player 1 has Starving Buzzard and Rotface on the board.
Player 1 also has a Flame Leviathan on top of their deck.
Player 1 plays Savannah Highmane.
Starving Buzzard triggers off of Savannah Highmane, causing Player 1 to draw Flame Leviathan.
Flame Leviathan triggers, dealing 2 damage to all characters.
Rotface triggers off the damage and summons Spiritsinger Umbra.
Before Update:
Spirit Singer Umbra triggers off the Savannah Highmane and summons two hyenas.
After Update:
Spiritsinger Umbra does not trigger off the Savannah Highmane, because she was not present when Savannah Highmane was played.
Thanks for Reading!
Of course, our work to make Hearthstone better won’t stop here!
Like the majority of odd interactions, each of these situations represents an edge case. While this update will address every situation we illustrated (among many others), there are still bound to be more. Keep in mind these are substantial changes to the core systems that underlie Hearthstone! We need to make them incrementally, and with the utmost care, but you can rest assured that we’ll continue to make improvements over time.
As someone who is used to the stack in Magic, this is much more intuitive for Hearthstone. Especially because Magic has no cards that read, "After you cast a spell..."
Notice how this example feels very similar to the example that Josh left behind in his video? This is because Magic The Gathering already incorporated this change since the beginning.
Hearthstone's changes are necessary for the game. There is absolutely no need for "After" effects. Hearthstone likes them because it feels different than Magic and the game can apply what is necessary to apply (like healing Wild Pyro with a spell before damage is dealt from his effect). Since the game itself can moderate the triggers instead of forcing the players to remember which triggers happen AFTER or BEFORE, it's welcome in Hearhtstone.
I'm not sure your right that MTG has had this since the beginning. The state is validated when a spell or ability resolves on the stack, it is not the case that everything is validated at the bottom of the stack. A lot of the best interactions in MTG is when you respond by making something an invalid target for a spell, thus effectively countering the spell.
However, after reading the examples more carefully and keeping the stack in mind, I am not as strongly against this change. It indeed makes the interactions more intuitive, and more akin to what the MTG resolution would have been. This is especially evidenced by the Mirror Entity example, since Kodo would have already resolved and have entered the battlefield when mirror entity is put into play.
This is complete BS, when a shaman cries. TIME FOR AN OVERHAUL.
When warlock is bottom and always asks for a change. Here's a cute gnome.
You realize that this is a positive change for warlock too, right? Playing DK after having Unlicensed Apothecary on board is a death sentence. So no, it's not just about shamans. Someone always has to comment on everything positive in the community with "BUT WHAT ABOUT MY CLASS? WAH WAH WAH!"
can they change back Naga Sea Witch please?
playing against hunter that plays a 5/5 and 3 to 4 8/8s is just not interactive at all
"Change back"? Naga Sea Witch wasn't changed since the release and I don't think these decks are that kind of a problem.
hey all, I've had a few drinks and haven't got a clue what the goblledigoog monster just googed.
However, I've a suspicion my earlier suspicions have been confirmed: I disenchanted, only a week ago, Bane of Doom and Unlicensed Apothecary because of their terrible synergy with Bloodreaver Gul'dan knowing that they'd change this bloody ridiculous double punish on Unlicensed Apothecary straight after I dust'em.
So, now... does adding Unlicensed Apothecary cease being an epic suicide interaction with Bloodreaver Gul'dan or Krul the Unshackled? ... can i even consider Bane of Doom without the fear of Unlicensed Apothecary arriving for the laughs?
Thanks anyone who can be arsed answering and understands what the hell's in the above. Be good, gl.
Unlicensed Apothecary ** I mean harhar
I believe that they are only changing Apothecary to not work when it is gotten through evolve, since its not being summoned.
Since BR Gul'dan technically summons it (Though battlecries don't trigger) it should still kill you.
Imo Might be wrong though so ya never know.
You should read this: https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/75yds0/hearthside_chat_with_josh_durica_game_mechanics/doa7q09/
many thanks for the replies. I don't think i'll get my head around it tonight... prob better off just waiting for the experimentation ><
ok, shite... i see what you mean. so battlecrys technically summon in sequence, where as spells have a singular
globaleffect?actually it's not global.
Actually it seems each summon is treated as its own event, no matter the circumstance. Stupid imp is still stupid. I was so hopeful too that this change would buff that little degenerate. The best you can hope for now is he is the last to be summoned, which is horribly unreliable.
i hope you're correct and that was my first impression. I don't know if the sequencing element re battlecries is a fact but that seems to contradict you. Anyone on twitter who could conform?
How about knife jugglers snipe face 6 times in a row while enemy board is full of minions
It's pure RNG bro, nothing you can do about that.
it's obviously a bad-RNG method they use
Sooo... The Djinni of Zephyrs and Potion of Madness combo deck is now dead i presume? :(