Quote from machine1979 >>Take away the auto summon which is really the problematic thing, and make it cost 0
or 1 mana, and battlecry: draw a card.
As long as this card exists every aggro deck will play it.
That is where I am bothered by some parts of the HS community. Allowing some decks to have staples is not always a bad thing. If you guys had played something like Yu-Gi-Oh you would better understand this. Sure, many staples in that game did need removing outside of the tourney format, or placed on the limited/restricted lists due to being too strong of a staple, but the game also made balanced staples work really well too.
Should we nerf Arcane Intellect because every mage deck uses it? How about Eviscerate for rogues, Truesilver Champion for pallies, or Shadow Word Pain for priests? Simply wanting to nerf something because every deck of that class/archtype uses it is not really that strong of a reason to nerf something, otherwise look at how many cards should be nerfed from every class right now if we used that reasoning.
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That's not true. Every-****ing-one repeated the exact same stupidity "Lol. Shaku has low stats. Undercity Huckster does the same thing for 2 manas."
Everyone literally spat on the only Ophidian* of the game at its release, and now feel smart for comparing him to Mana-Tide Totem, saying it's pretty good.
*The word in Magic the Gathering to define the creatures that give you card when they attack the opponent.Ltteral game-winners if your opponent can't react quickly enough.
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"Imo Water Rogue is just a Good Stuff deck, not A rogue deck. The tihng that makes this water list work better on rogue is the weapon hero power."
Hero Power, Backstab, Eviscerate, Cold Blood, Swashburglar, Shaku, VanCleef, SI:7, Shadow Sensei... Yeah you're right ! Everyone has those kind of cards, that's why we see so much different classes playing Finja aggro decks !
If you can't consider Water Rogue as a Rogue deck, you kinda missed a whole chapter, called "The basics of Tempo" >_>
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@Kovachut
We'll all easily agree that if you had to play 3 cards instead of 4, the card would be way more busted (since it's basically an Auctioneer-Prep-Spell turn, which is the most common thing you'll be doing if you play Miracle) ;)
Now let's have a look at the cheap answers you're mentioning : sure they are cheap, meaning the individual 5/3 bodies aren't that sticky by themselves against the right answers. But every one of them costs a specific card, that migh have been used before to kill the first Sherazin, or simply not fall too far behind on the board. The obvious conclusion is that Sherazin produces more value every time you bring him back. So even though the 3 health are a weakness against cheap spells, those cheap spells still aren't all that perfect, since they cost a card, you have to DRAW that card, and you can't have a bagillion of them because of the deck limitations. The perfect answers would actually be Sheep or Hex, which cost about the same mana cost as Sherazin, and are some forms of hard removal (I guess we wouldn't extend to say that cards like Sherazin are weak to "transform" hard removals, because nearly every creature in the game is and saying it would be pointless ^^).
Once again, let's clear out that "playing multiple cards in one turn" isn't a cost. You're getting the full advantage of playing those cards; Sherazin is just an extra payoff. And as everyone knows, Rogue is the most ideal class to play those multiple cards and gain tempo off of it.
I'll finish with the tempo point : as I mentioned a second ago, Sherazin comes back whenever you play your 4 cards, and the key is to understand the meaning of those all-in moments in a traditionnal Rogue game. Because Reno is going out of standard, I'll not talk about Reno Rogue, even though it's a very interesing deck ;)
In Aggro Rogue, the moment you dump your hand is usually whenever you want to go for the kill and use your burst damage. If you can kill the opponent right away, Sherazin didn't produce much but you already won. What's interesting with Sherazin is being able to setup a much more resilient 2-turns lethal, which is a play you generally start on turn 5/6, if your hand is full of burst damage that you couldn't use to play a "fairer" back-and-forth game. Though, I wouldn't be too affirmative on Sherazin being excellent in Aggro, because it depends on you ability to have enough cards in hand and another 4 drop could be preferable if your deck demands it ( right now for example, Shadow Sensei takes the cake because you have a bunch of Stealth minions, and the +2/+2 tempo swing on turn 4 is very valuable).
Imo, Sherazin is at its best in Miracle Rogue for 3 reasons : firstly, Pillager is going out of Standard and the deck needs some cards to play before the Auctioneer turn to fight on the board (of course if we focused only on that role, Naga Corsair would be better but it's not the case ;).
Secondly, Sherazin can come back the turn you play Auctioneer (I do think it would require a refined build though. Since Conceal is going out, I'd predict a build with 2 Coins, and a few more 1 mana spells like Deadly Poison and Journey, which would lead to a more midrangy Miracle instead of the cheaty one we see today). This is very interesting because Auctioneer is pretty weak on ist own AND a key target, so having an extra threatening body would really help maintaining pressure the turn you play your Auctioneer.
Lastly, once you've refilled your hand with Auctioneer, playing 4 cards per turn for atleast 2 turns becomes really easy, and at that point you're developping your key threats or exhausting your opponent. Thus, Sherazin becomes really difficult to deal with in the late game, and the pressure of its 5 attack continuously threatens your opponent or helps you deal with those pesky Taunts.
All in all, Sherazin is apparently able to help out Miracle Rogue at any point of the game, and does it in a grindy, balanced yet powerful and tempo-oriented way. That's why I really like its design and don't think the 3 Health are gonna be much of a problem : because the card isn't made to survive, it's made to put pressure and chip away ressources from your opponent's hand along the whole game :)
Sorry if you found my answer too long, I just though it would be useful to explain my whole point since you are open to a constructive conversation =)
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It only needs to be revived once to basically give 10/6 worth of stats for 4 without any other cost (playing 4 cards in a row being rather positive tempowise, and the plant comes back at that precise moment where you take the upperhand by dumping your hand). The card is balanced, has a lot of potential, is perfectly suited for the Rogue playstyle and refills a spot in the curve that's loosing Pillager.
Yet people are criticizing the card and complaing about Rogue having "bad legendaries", literally a month after founding how good Shaku is in Aggro Rogue AND hipstering about how they "knew it from the start". Except everyone trashed Shaku when he got announced.
I'd say "wtf guys", but after having been a Rogue main for so long I'm actually not surprised at all. Rogue cards are just doomed to be treated like shit until they break through >_>
Let's just clear out one thing. 5/4 for is the agressive standard for 4 drops. So a recursive 5/3 ISN'T weak. With that kind of mindset, you'd literally look up to Shredder if you had to judge it today...
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Hey ! Ça fait plaisir d'avoir des francophones qui postent sur Hearthpwn; la plus grande visibilité me semble intéressante en terme de commentaires (bien qu'évidemment tu te retrouve noyé dans mille decklists similaires ;)
C'est clair que les tests en diront plus. Actuellement j'essaie de partir sur une liste très proactive pour casser avec le N'Zoth Standard précédent, d'où ma volonté de sortir Azure Drake et Brann pour les remplacer par des choses plus cheap ou plus consistantes (mais aussi pour maximiser les probas que Barnes touche un Deathrattle). L'air de rien mon esprit a immédiatement catégorisé Swash comme hors de propos, alors que bon, 1/1 pour 1 c'est peu mais on respecte quoi. D'ailleurs j'ai eu aujourd'hui même la même réflexion que toi sur le fait de limiter les Deathrattle anecdotiques pour maximiser les Deathrattle d'Aya et Wanderer sur N'Zoth.
Du coup j'pense que dans ma démarche de deck full proactif je vais définitivement mettre de côté 1 Hoarder et temporairement mes 2 Journey pour rentrer 2 Swash et 1 SI:7 (j'en avais 0 pour l'instant), et lâcher mon Xaril pour mettre le petit Skulker, qui me sauce pas mal aussi et remplace le high-value play de Xaril par un play tout aussi puissant, mais plus en terme de tempo.
Que pense-tu de Huckster ? J'en met deux de base, au prix chez toi de Brann et 1 Sap, toujours dans l'optique de m'assurer un Raptor qui copie quelque chose t3 (oui, tu remarqueras que dans ma vision des choses, delay un trade de Wanderer ou une pose de Raptor est une chose que je compte éviter autant que possible. Certes, tu perds un Golem de plus, mais derrière tu perds en aggression donc Aya et N'Zoth deviennent moins violents pour les PVs de ton adversaire), mais aussi pour avoir 10 Deathrattle et s'assurer que N'Zoth ramènera un maximum de cartes à chaque fois. Moi ce que je pressens comme dangereux dans ta liste, c'est qu'avec 6 Deathrattle pile poil (7 sur un Barnes chanceux), tu vas te retrouver à parfois poser des N'Zoth tour 9 ou 10 qui vont te ramener genre 3 cartes, ce que je trouve un peu underwhelming :)
Merci pour ta réponse, et si tu veux check ma liste et lire mes explications de démarche... je vais pas faire de la pub à un site concurrent mais tu cherches [S-Rank-Wannabe] Rogue N'Zoth Tempo sur le site de Mamy et Zecha ;-D
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What would you think of replacing Swashburglars with Journey Below to insure a decent card and potentially a Jade Wanderer or Aya, and replacing Azure Drake with Loot Hoarder for some more early game board presence and to maximize your odds to trigger Raptor on turn 3 ?
I'm theorycrafting on my own HS french community, and I decided to go fully proative and take inspiration on the typical Wild N'Zoth Rogue decks rather than trying to adapt the actual standard tendancies with Drakes and other slow and inconsistent card (like Brann for example), and I'd love to debate a bit with other builders :)
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Defending Flamewaker and Totem by talking about the situations in which they're good, while neglecting to talk about any rogue spells or the good lines of play for Shaku (which would be clearing the board with cheap/free removals, then playing a second threat to force the opponent to choose one threat to kill, or play Conceal), makes no sense if you want to judge the card seriously.
Now if your opponent has the answer in hand after the first attack (which HAS to be a spell, a weapon or a Charge, since you'll not deliberately attack on a board that'll trade with Shaku and keep him Stealthed for some better time, except if you're getting rushed down in which case Shaku is at its worse), what is wrong with that ? Shaku got you about some 2 for 1 at his worse (the only really good answers being 3/2 weapons or 4/3 Charge). Don't see any problem with that. Xaril is decent while he's weak tempowise, because he lets you get 2 Toxins that are worth about 0.75 card each.
And I kinda disagree on the "if your opponent can't deal with your 3-drop on turn 4, you're winning". They could be playing a 4 drop that's simply dominating the board, and that's generally what you have when your hand is lacking removals : decent on-curve proactive cards. Or they could simply have some 5+ mana cards and go 2-drop + Hero power. Now the most important thing Imo, is that if your opponent actually can't kill your 3-drop on their turn 3-4, you're actually not at all on your way to win, because your 3-drops are 3/3 SI:7, which isn't really punishing. The real issue with rogues is that you merely put any early pressure in standard (and I play N'Zoth Rogue in wild, so I know the big difference ;), therefore your opponent is free to play whatever is best for him and you just try to deal with it in the early game. Shaku starts to fill that hole by being really punishing when it attacks multiples times, Stealth letting you choose the right moment to start attacking.
Rogues cards just can't be evaluated like Warrior or Hunter cards, they have different strenghts to consider and different gaps to fill.
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I keep hearing everyone saying Undercity Huckster is better than Shaku because they'll both atleast Burgle 1 card and Huckster costs 2. But seriously, is it that complicate to see that Huckster is *never* gonna give you anything else than Burgle 1, unlike Shaku ? Sure your opponent can have an answer to a 2/3 body, but if they don't you'll just goddamn Burgle 1 every turn. Did people really forget how an unanswered Flamewaker or Mana Tide Totem can be devastating ? Shaku snowballs all the same except he has Stealth (therefore can be played on curve without instadying).
The hell is wrong with you guys ? :p