Hearthpwn

the wont remove the system: They will give it less protagonist in future expansions. The system is a "good excuse" to make exciting broken cards that they wont be able to print unless they could force us to play those cards in a particular deck. Thats why the system is a great idea for they to keep.

But yeah we obviusly would see some "no rune" legos in the future and "no rune" focus package too. Thats obvius because design space wont allow to focus on one rune every expansion. But...thats not a concern on my list because most broken DK cards will have runes attached to them so its a win-win kindof situation.

Quote from FeedtheEmu >>

I did. I disagree. The first four expansions were as bad they are now. (Naxx, Goblins, Blackroack, Grand Tournament) but you can chalk that up to it being relatively new. They were pretty good with playability after that (with a few exceptions like Karazan) Good: League of Explorers, Old Gods, Knights, Un' Goro, Kobolds, etc...etc...

My expectation, especially of class cards, is that they are on average better than neutrals, and I understand their is always a dude or two, or a direction that doesn't pan out that expansion (Though, the expectation their is that they will add or buff cards in the direction until it is viable). 

Speaking as someone that only plays Shaman for F2P reasons. We got one playable card in the last 3, possibly including this one, expansions (Clown Fish) We got several dudes, like the 8 mana spell I mentioned, several big unplayable minions, and several directions that didn't pan out and aren't getting more support. Totems, this (Big Shaman) has exactly one enabler!, They printed a few cards for a board flood direction, and gave us back bloodlust, but you look at it for two seconds and you can tell it's way worse than Imp Warlock, and Beast Druid and those barely work against Renethal so what chance is their of that panning out, they took away some of the Freeze synergy, We havent gotten a new Elemental in 3 sets, we haven't got new Frost, Fire, Nature spell support in 3 sets, we haven't got Overload in 3 sets. 

It really feels like they are choking out Shaman with a dozen different directions, none of which have the support they need, or are getting additional support. I don't remember it being this bad before, we always got at least one card here and there to try to make old archetypes work. 

 This. I always feel like Shaman is one of the most experimental and thematic classes if not the most experimental clas of the game. It has a good amount of great tools in wild that collected around the years to get solid decks but in general the package is usually not focus on competitive decks, it lack of consistency between the expansions. The only thing that is consistent is the heavy amount of Murloc Legends in the class that really is something good because you have a package of utility cards that dont really need to go in that deck but you can always put in that deck if you want.

In that sense i dont belive Shaman is a trolling class. More like a class to appeal a different kind of player than the others. Just like Priest is heavy focus on control tools, slow games and "improvise" your winconditions with your oponent cards. Shaman is focus on building this sensation of "i have tools from very different elements" and "my deck is not just one think, is a lot of stuff that can work together" even when this decks dont reach the consistency they would like to reach.

Well, mage and warlock already "destroy all of us" so what is another bullet to take?

Quote from KingCarnage >>

A card that lets you take a quest reward shouldnt exist. Period. someone wants to play stupid steal cards crap, it should be random, not i get to look through your hand and choose. I remember thinking Chamelos was kind of annoying how much info it can give. Now, you can easily know your opponents entire hand.

 Cards that let you win on the spot neither should exist. Period. But they do right? so were we draw the line?  - Lets look effects like Quest Warlock provide. Is not a good deck neither a common deck to find but what happen when you complete the Quest and play the Tenzin? Oh, right, you win the game by spamming all the heavy self damage spells you how in hand and you can also Attack into your enemy minions with Jarraxus because is not just damage by effects in your turn but any kind of damage, you can also self-mill yourself in order to win the game.

Priest Quest? "i draw one card, i win" Mage Quest? "Now with all the face damage spells that dealt 3 or more damage i will combo you to hell with +2 spell damage min" - I am pretty sure all this effects Are imposible to dealt with for not-top tier aggresive decks. People that hate Theothar but dont want to admit that the top dogs are very similar cards in terms of design ALWAYS said "you should play a different deck, this other deck that you dont like to play works well against my card"

Well...why u guys dont play a different deck? Go and play DH and imp-lock until you get bored. You will atleast have a positive winrate against Theotar.

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Who is running denathrius in the top decks right now, druid and…? What is “value priest” even? It sounds like you don’t have a wincon and the strategy is to answer and withstand all threats your opponent plays then play your power spike. It’s a dead strategy. Look, I love priest too, it’s my favorite class. I understand what you want to play, but those days are gone. It’s not just denathrius that killed it either. The value in priest now is draw/discount and naga priest isn’t up or down, it’s one of the best decks if not the best deck depending where you are on the ladder. Theotar is bad card and trying to play 20 turns is a long gone strategy. I’m not saying Theotar was never good or that he isn’t good in your case, but attrition decks that grind out games are going away. If you think it’s bad now, wait until DK comes out, there is no way decks that don’t have a proactive wincon stand a chance.

 Sure whatever u said buddy. Look one think is said "u can climb with nagga priest" but nagga priest is the most easy deck to counter on ladder right now. The only place where the deck shines is on the high ranks were people spam Imp-Lock and Token Druid. Both the only decks on ladder that cant board wipe every turn. I dont see any proof of Naga Priest being a good deck overall. Is just a product of the ladder. Its good against decks that are not good dealing with a lot of minions in one hit. But the decks that are good doing that are bad against the top dogs (Imp Lock in particular that has a lot of tools to punish control decks). So Imp lock, the good deck keep on check the decks that destroy Nagga Priest so Nagga Priest is "good" in the same ranks were people is playing a lot of imp-lock.

I play many versions of Nagga Priest for one week and just come to the conclusion that is a deck that depends of other decks to be good. Its boring to play, its really hopeless against a lot of off-meta matchups. And dont even offers a great challengue to pilot. Its just learn when to hold your cards when play your cards, when over commit and when auto-concede. Boring Pseudo Zoo deck. Edit: you can argue that one dimensional decks like Demon Hunter or Naga Priest are not good or bad, but for sure not my style of play, i dont get any joy of ranking with stuff like that.

Quote from Scorpyon >>

Quote from HeilKise >>

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Here’s the thing about Theotar, he’s bad. He was bad at 5 mana. He is bad at 6 mana. It’s a turn 6 4/4 with no immediate impact. I see everyone saying he steals denathrius and so he is mandatory, but that is pretty much for ramp Druid and maybe phylactery warlock. The best decks and most popular decks don’t care about Theotar at all. Shaman being able to abuse it with schooling is a different story because you are almost guaranteed a terrible trade, so it makes Theotar a bit better. If you are playing Theotar, cut him and win more games. Theotar is so niche that if you need him to beat ramp Druid, you are probably going to lose to one of the other wincons in that deck.

 Well you hit a good point there. Most top dog decks dont need Denathrius,

 Not to skew the conversation here (since this thread is about Theotar rather than Denathrius), but it's probably worth mentioning that he featured in EVERY deck in the recent tournament. If he wasn't needed, then I am pretty sure this wouldn't have been the case.

 The thing with Denathrius is that this decks dont really need him to win but they CAN  win with him. So why dont put him in the deck? is just 1 card and honestly when he appears fast he will win the game for u or atleast give u better odds.

@RendInFriend
Friend, my point is exactly that. I dont care about those decks, i play value Priest, and talking from that only perspective is maybe wrong but i am pretty pure control priest is not the only deck that is unable to beat a Long-Game deck with Denathrius on top. Denathrius itself is not something that will kill you but if your oponent dry your resources and them will finish you with Denathrius. A lot of decks cant play against that. And to make it worse you just name the top dogs (and naga priest which as a up and down winrate but honestly it does pretty bad against the most played decks)

So he have two cards that the player base dont really like: Theotar which is the main target of nerfs because is not the face of the actual expansion a Denathrius a card that the devs admit they will probably nerf in the future but they dont want to nerf right now because is the face of this expansion They want people to "test him with the new cards to see if he is more balance there" - With a new expansion filled with resurrect a lot of minions and trade super big boards turn after turn...yeah that would be "fun" to see who has the biggest denathrius on curve as a Plan B wincon or who can set-up a denathrius combo as a main wincon.

Because of Denathrius i find Theotar effect very balance. We have a meta with super strong "hand to board" effects. We cant interact very well with this kind of cards and just delayed this cards dont supposed any problem for the opponent because eventually they are going to play them and get a heavy impact on the board that may win them the game on the spot. Until this changes i am in favor of Theotar. When that changes? sure delete the card.

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Quote from HeilKise >>

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Here’s the thing about Theotar, he’s bad. He was bad at 5 mana. He is bad at 6 mana. It’s a turn 6 4/4 with no immediate impact. I see everyone saying he steals denathrius and so he is mandatory, but that is pretty much for ramp Druid and maybe phylactery warlock. The best decks and most popular decks don’t care about Theotar at all. Shaman being able to abuse it with schooling is a different story because you are almost guaranteed a terrible trade, so it makes Theotar a bit better. If you are playing Theotar, cut him and win more games. Theotar is so niche that if you need him to beat ramp Druid, you are probably going to lose to one of the other wincons in that deck.

 Well you hit a good point there. Most top dog decks dont need Denathrius, runing him in token druid and imp lock is kind of "optional" You have REALLY good reasons to run him on Warlock tho. The problem is: what about the other top decks? Value mage, value rogue, Paladin, Ramp Druid, those kind of decks have a card that will beat u if you play slow decks of any kind that dont insta win, if you dont have Theotar.

Theothar is just Half of the problem, the other half is this meta with decks that cant dealt with Denathrius, Tess, cards with really strong Battle Cry effects that change win the game when played. What do u do against those cards? The main reason why Theothar is played in every single deck is that...well there is nothing better to play to balance the game. Devs dont like him, probably players neither but without him a lot of decks would be doomed.

 Mage doesn’t need Denathrius and has redundancy. Rogue is playing jackpot, Theotar does little against this matchup. Paladin is the same, if you have to choose between jailer and Denathrius, is it better to play something else? The answer to denathrius decks is to play something more proactive that has a gameplan. Relying on Theotar to solve denathrius isn’t it.

 What is a more proactive gameplan y classes that dont have it? "Play Naga Priest" and accept to lose to board clear when you dont draw the combo or your oponent just hold hard removal forever until you commit or just try to win the matches against not AoE decks which wont happen neither. Nope, there is not other answer than Theothar and Mutanus for MY decks. Try the dragon package against this meta, its not even enough with all the pro-active plays it has. Face it, Denatrius kill most out-meta decks right now. You have access to heavy minion/spell spam or you have an OTK or just dont play this expansion.

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Here’s the thing about Theotar, he’s bad. He was bad at 5 mana. He is bad at 6 mana. It’s a turn 6 4/4 with no immediate impact. I see everyone saying he steals denathrius and so he is mandatory, but that is pretty much for ramp Druid and maybe phylactery warlock. The best decks and most popular decks don’t care about Theotar at all. Shaman being able to abuse it with schooling is a different story because you are almost guaranteed a terrible trade, so it makes Theotar a bit better. If you are playing Theotar, cut him and win more games. Theotar is so niche that if you need him to beat ramp Druid, you are probably going to lose to one of the other wincons in that deck.

 Well you hit a good point there. Most top dog decks dont need Denathrius, runing him in token druid and imp lock is kind of "optional" You have REALLY good reasons to run him on Warlock tho. The problem is: what about the other top decks? Value mage, value rogue, Paladin, Ramp Druid, those kind of decks have a card that will beat u if you play slow decks of any kind that dont insta win, if you dont have Theotar.

Theothar is just Half of the problem, the other half is this meta with decks that cant dealt with Denathrius, Tess, cards with really strong Battle Cry effects that change win the game when played. What do u do against those cards? The main reason why Theothar is played in every single deck is that...well there is nothing better to play to balance the game. Devs dont like him, probably players neither but without him a lot of decks would be doomed.

sQuote from Scorpyon >>

Quote from HeilKise >>

I dont know what people want this card to be honestly but i dont belive he would be bad never effect unless he cost 9,

 His mana cost was never the problem. Nobody complained about him because they thought he was too cheap to play. It's the Discover element of his power that is what makes him strong and I am surprised after repeated nerfs that they still havent fixed this. 

Denathrius can still be effected by plenty of other disruption mechanics, and even more options in a few days time when DK's are released. So it's not like Theotar is really "needed" in its current farm.

 What other Disruption mechanic in standard prevents you from losing to 30 damage to face - For the resto of the game - ?

(The Answer is hit the jack-pot with mutanus) There is not a great card to call units from your oponents hand in standard right now. If there was one people wont be force to run Theothar and Mutanus both in  literally every late game deck.

I dont know what people want this card to be honestly but i dont belive he would be bad never effect unless he cost 9, which is the turn before Sir Denathrius can be played so your oponent will dump his hand into the board and you will lose if you just play Theotar to take the Denathrius.

What keeps the card strong is how the decks that are really hurt by him really love to hold "game swimp" cards in their hands for the late game. And how little those decks can do if that card is taken away. Theotar for 6 is 100% a worse card in general against a lot of decks that wants to do stuff at turn 1 to 6 because unless you ramp u cant take those cards going second. Going first you can but there is nothing they can do to balance the going first vs going second stuff.

That said, control decks on standard keep a low winrate compare to combo and aggro. The only 2 control decks doing consistenly fine are Paladin and Shaman. One of them because it can abuse Theotar effect multiple times and the other runs 3 winconditions in the form of Sire, Jailer and Cariel. Ladder still is mostly mage, demon hunter, hunter and druid. In Wild the problem is that every X number of sets we need a tool to disrupt hand and all of them end up in Wild but that could be solve by banning 1 or 2 of the hard disruption.

We need cards like Theothar tho. Slowing a combo does nothing for control decks: cards that increase the cost of other cards to prevent an OTK play just buy u half of a turn because u wont have enough mana to end the game in that moment and most combos in Hearthstone are Winconditions, you win the very moment u make the combo. Regardless when you made the combo. There is not any argument against that, combos become winconditions so the only answer for control decks to keep being played was introduce 1 hand disruption card every X number of sets so you always have a way to win games that are decide by 1 card. Or the 1 play.

Quote from Scorpyon >>

Quote from BroF1sT >>

Quote from Scorpyon >>

Druid was garbage tier for most of the first couple of expansions of HS. 
Hunter wasn't that high up either tbh.

 This guy clearly knows his sh*t.

 Thank you. I do, yes. 
Not sure why you cherry-picked a couple of one-off exceptions to the rule as if they were some sort of "gotcha", but you do you. :-) 

 Token druid has been meta in a lot of formats. Ramp Druid too. Before both archtypes, Combo druid with force of nature was one of the strongest and most nerfed decks.

Quote from Scorpyon >>

Druid was garbage tier for most of the first couple of expansions of HS. 
Hunter wasn't that high up either tbh.

In fact, until the origin Spell Hunter and Odd Hunter decks came along, Hunter was mostly a one-trick pony of a class that was extremely easy to play around. 

Putting aside whatever you think they are like now (personally, I believe there are much worse decks to play against right now: Implock, Miracle Pally, pretty much any Mage deck - secrets or frost, etc), they aren't dominant by any means and have definitely seen metas where they were left on the heap.

 event with the edit: Druid and Hunter were the strongest classes for a long time, the devs nerf target a lot of the cards that make Druid and  Hunter strong until they become bad for a short time, them they go back to the top. Aggro Hunter was not a tier 1 top dog all th expansions ? Sure, it was always the faster deck for ladder and one of the most efficients. I remember one of my best climbs in the game just before league of explorers was Tempo Hunter in a really cheap shell. Easy Climb.

Ramp Druid when Fandral was release in the DK era? Probably my favorite control oriente druid deck forever. Crazy come back potential, snowball effect. literally the top dog with most complains in th game at that time thanks to certain card that was literally Cruel Ultimatun from MTG with a mini tribute in the name too. I get bored of both classes pretty fast because they just keep becoming more easy to play and still too over the top.

Cheaper in money not in time. A person that start playing the game will get 1 standard deck, a lot of standard packs, and some idea of what the class they choose is played in some degree. For Wild you need to made research, craft a lot of legendaries for an especific deck and working with the crating material u want to spend in that. There is not need for me to said that you will get a playable wild deck after 2 weeks if we are talking about a cheap zoo deck. Yes standard money wise is far more expensive because the format changes and you need to adapt to new decks constanly.

Quote from FatalityHS >>

Quote from HeilKise >>

Quote from FatalityHS >>

always funny when standard players (90% of the community) talk to wild players, theyre like "man we only have 3 classes right now. wild is wild. blizzard dont care etc."

the sad part about this is they have no idea how much blizzard really did to balance wild compared do standard.

 

 Well to be fair i dont remember the last time i could play control Shaman nor good old control priest on Wild. Or tempo something any class. The problem with Wild is not the class diversity, almost any class has atleast one deck that is "wild" level. But the real problem is archtype diversity in those classes. Like Priest is very restricted to OTK combos for example or going hard into Neptulon. The way the game works in Wild is very different to what i want my game experience to be.

 control shaman (shudder) and control priest (quest) are pretty good right now, theres also quest mage and mecha'thun warlock, and there is not really an otk priest. besides that you can play any type of hyper aggro or midrangy deck right now, like enrage warrior, aggro rogue, aggro druid or aggro shaman.

like i said, 90% dont really know what theyre talkin about if ure not very into other modes. its simple an act of feelings. i dont play battlegrounds and i dont talk about it, its that simple.

 

 i dont consider heavy focus shudder decks as a control deck. The wincondition and the gameplan are very different from the raw "i just win by value" in fact most "control shaman" decks on wild will lose even when they dont concede after losing the shudderwock and i can tall of this one very well because i own the deck myself when it becomes a think in standard and try to running a very decent Wild version when haggata rotates. it was a deck i really enjoy for a lot of time but when i get into wild i get quest terminate, mage secret crush me, hunter too, healing priest otk beat, weapon rogue before the nerfs was also just crushing me every time. In single: the deck suck in wild.

I have to admit that this days i dont touch wild i already disch all my wild cards without second thoughts. So yeah maybe you are right and thinks are "better" know but the reason why i leavy wild still remains. Deck are out of control there, its very expensive in terms of value build a full Wild fine tuned deck. If i have the cards i will try it againt this yeah? i dont know. Probably not because the card quality is heavy demanding, stuff like Galakron or some niche Dragon cards i used to tech on my decks are not working anymore there and honestly i hate more matches in Wild than standard.

Maybe is not the "format but me" but well i dont like the kind of stuff that was heavy play back them the past year. This year as i said i dont touch wild and honestly i dont hear something that makes me belive is safe to go back.

edit: btw i find really hard to belive that people is not running mind blast combos that dealt 40 damage over any kind of control priest with shadow cards, 40 card, that kind of autoloses to any "i win with this play" in Wild. It could be a thin but the last time i check this format playing PURE control decks without any end-the-game combo play was a doom sentence (or your draw all your disruption on the right time)

Quote from FatalityHS >>

always funny when standard players (90% of the community) talk to wild players, theyre like "man we only have 3 classes right now. wild is wild. blizzard dont care etc."

the sad part about this is they have no idea how much blizzard really did to balance wild compared do standard.

 

 Well to be fair i dont remember the last time i could play control Shaman nor good old control priest on Wild. Or tempo something any class. The problem with Wild is not the class diversity, almost any class has atleast one deck that is "wild" level. But the real problem is archtype diversity in those classes. Like Priest is very restricted to OTK combos for example or going hard into Neptulon. The way the game works in Wild is very different to what i want my game experience to be.