Hello out there...I was wondering what you all thought which accomplishment demonstrates or requires more skill at hearthstone: reaching legend in a season or becoming an infinite arena player (assume 30+ runs...or a number that's enough to ensure a non-tiny sample size)? Oh, for the purpose of this I'm defining an infinite arena player as someone who actually does average 7+ wins. The fact that technically you don't need quite that many with quests to get there is not the point here.
Both are two completely different skill sets and depend on certain circumstances and match ups. Overall I'd place them at equal skill wise but I can see how one can argue in either direction.
Card pool : In arena the cards you have to be prepared for in any given game are of a bigger variety than in constructed. Especially as a game progresses in constructed both the card count and archetype make the constructed deck more predictable.
Construction : putting together a sound Arena deck takes a lot of skill, choosing a solid deck to get to Legendary is just personal preference.
The main limiting factor for achieving legendary is having time and patience. You can't hit Legendary playing just an hour a day after work, unless you're quite fortunate. Also you need to keep your head and trust that if you play correctly, you will eventually hit Legendary.
Both accomplishments are still very impressive and should not be belittled!
As others have said, they really are two entirely different beasts. That doesn't mean they can't be compared though. I would say that going infinite in arena is a bit harder.
In constructed you have much more control over every aspect of your games, from your deck to what you tech against. It more of a time factor and remaining in a good mindset. Knowing when to take breaks so you don't take massive dives in ranks in one sitting.
But in arena the variables vary widely. It isn't hard to hit 7 or 9 wins, but to average 7+ is a lot harder. You aren't sure of anything, from if you opponent has 2 Flamestrikes or if they are packing 4, any number of things can cause games to swing wildly from one persons advantage to to others. You just have to prepare for anything and 95% of the time go for the most value cards/trades. Along with the cards you're given, even if you know how to draft well, sometimes you just get to decided which card is less crap.
In my opinion infinite arena is more of a challenge, but not unobtainable. Since GvG getting steady 7+ has become a bit harder and players have become somewhat better. Good luck whatever you goal is. (I have over 600 arena games played and am pretty decent but still not infinite, close, but it's not easy.)
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. - T. E. Lawrence
Definitely arena. Unless you happen to have also created your own constructed deck from scratch it's basically just a case of playing it over and over and over with a win rate anything above 50%, which does not requite much skill. Legend is a test of patience. Arena is a test of skill, at least if youre going infinite time after time and not just that once you got 4 flame strikes, 3 fireballs and a pyroblast.
Card pool : In arena the cards you have to be prepared for in any given game are of a bigger variety than in constructed. Especially as a game progresses in constructed both the card count and archetype make the constructed deck more predictable.
Construction : putting together a sound Arena deck takes a lot of skill, choosing a solid deck to get to Legendary is just personal preference.
The main limiting factor for achieving legendary is having time and patience. You can't hit Legendary playing just an hour a day after work, unless you're quite fortunate. Also you need to keep your head and trust that if you play correctly, you will eventually hit Legendary.
Both accomplishments are still very impressive and should not be belittled!
you make it sound like a predictable game makes it easier, but i would argue that it's the other way around. there's a lot more mindgames on ladder ^_^
couldn't agree more.
Arena is always the same strategy, there are no real match up: just staple cards you hope to pick/ not face, and play around them. Then, clear and control board, go face, gain card advantage, don't over extend. With this and all the websites that help you to build a deck, you will get a 12 win very very fast...
Constructed is a lot of "netdecking", I can't deny that. Which means: you don't have deck advantage over the opponent, since you have the same decks, more or less personnal preference/changes. Which means, only skill and rng will make a difference, and in the long run, everybody's chance balance itself out (more or less). So skill is the main factor at the end of the day. In arena, everybody can do the deck building in the same way, everybody uses the same skill (clearing, controlling and doing value trades are really not that hard to understand), so at the end of the day, the factor that will help the most will be the deck itself: did u get a lucky draft/what the did opponent get. You can hate it all you want, but if u practice arena a lot, you will become infinite at some point, because you mastered the basic required skills. And you will sometimes still go 1-3, because your draft is awful and there is nothing you could have done to prevent that. In constructed, once you have the skills to go legend, you will not have a next season "stuck at rank 14", because skill is what matter the most, and is the hardest to acquire.
Both are completely different, but I'd say getting Legend is 10x easier than getting 12 wins.
I really laughed at this comment... getting 12 wins is definetly easier than getting legend, and also takes way less time.
Yeah getting 12 wins is a lot easier than getting legend, getting legend is very time dependent and also skill dependent. However I am willing to state that players with above average (not good just above average) skill and access to all the cards (not even needed) can get to legend if they have enough time to play the game. In arena I am willing to bet that getting a >70% win rate over a long period (above 100 arena runs) is only achievable with skill.
Having said that most great players will be good at both constructed and arena, but the skills do not translate directly as both modes have distinctly different playing styles. The best time however to farm arena for gold is just after an adventure or expansion has been launched as a lot of people who don't usually play arena come and test the new cards before buying or crafting them and thus players not used to arena drafting ensures a lot of free wins for a couple of weeks after a new launch.
Getting legend obviously takes long time, but most people just rush face with hunter or mage till rank 5, so the skill part only becomes important during the last few ranks.
On ladder you know you're probably going to face the same 5-8 decks again and again with hardly any variation. All the best decks are tough, but you know what you're likely to face each game. So it's far from impossible to grind to legend in a season, assuming you've got the time and the cards and the dedication. Arena is entirely different. You've gotta be prepared to essentially face any and every card in the game at unexpected times. Chances are you'll see something you'd NEVER see on ladder and it may kill you. Luck also helps but it can't save you every time.
Bottom line, you can reach legend if you play ALL month with a 55-60% winrate. Getting 7+ wins consistently in Arena requires a winrate closer to 80% which is far more difficult with random decks and no way to know what you're facing from game to game. Much respect to anyone who's ever reached legend, but if you're infinite in Arena.....chances are you've already reached legend several times and just wanna earn more free cards/gold.
Well ranked is all about deck building, knowing the meta, knowing the best decks, guessing what deck your opponent is playing etc. Ofc you can play the most powerful deck but it does take skill once you are facing legendary players so I'd say it takes a lot of knowledge of the game and the meta to be a legendary player which is 0.5% of all ranked players. But then again Arena is all about winning in any circumstances, so it tests your skill when you have to use somewhat sloppy deck with pretty bad cards while your opponent has 3 legendaries in their deck. So I'd say they are both equally difficult.
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Thanks for everyone's thoughts. For the record, though I primarily play arena I was in no way trying to suggest that both don't require a lot of skill. Both are unquestionably an accomplishment. I was just wondering about the perception of one as compared to the other. I know they are different, but to say that you can't compare them at all seems like a fallacy. I mean it is the same game.
Maybe the best way to compare is if you knew the average number of games it takes a person to reach legend, divide by 7 (# of wins I'm using to define infinite arena) and use that number of arena runs to average 7+ as compared to reaching legend. Again I'm not talking about a single 12 win arena. one poster I think compared a 12 win win run to reaching top 100 legend...there's no question that reaching top 100 is the harder one. Maybe top 100 could be compared to averaging 10+ wins which is probably impossible.
I would say becoming an infinite arena player is harder than reaching legend because drafting is a challenging process.
Constructed requires more skillful plays than arena, but if you netdeck some really good decks, understand all of your opponents decks, and play a lot of games you will reach legend in time.
Getting 12 wins < Reaching Legend < Infinite Arena Player < Finishing in Top 100 in Legend at the end of the season
I would say becoming an infinite arena player is harder than reaching legend because drafting is a challenging process.
Constructed requires more skillful plays than arena, but if you netdeck some really good decks, understand all of your opponents decks, and play a lot of games you will reach legend in time.
Getting 12 wins < Reaching Legend < Infinite Arena Player < Finishing in Top 100 in Legend at the end of the season
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From a newer player's perspective, reaching 12 wins at all is a lot about having hte right deck. That's NOT random purely as newer players wont' know how to craft the right deck and following a card priority guide will NOT get you a 12 win deck. You need to know enough about drafting to get the right deck. That said, a great draw with this knowledge is all you need to get a 12 win deck.
Reaching legend is a similar mentality. You need to know deck types, the meta, know which deck to use and to know how to use it. You also have to be ready for the meta switch at rank 5's 'wall'. It's not the same but similar in difficulty to good arena runs. What makes legend harder is afterwards: the grind. I'm not including the old "I don't have time for that many games" and pretending everyone DOES have time. What they won't have is stamina to play that many games and the mental ability to keep a positive attitude. Tilt kills a lot of people's chances, even if they know how to get to legend. 12 win runs don't have that.
While 12 wins can be gotten by just waiting for a good draft, and legend can be reached once you've reasearched the right deck to use, none of that helps you for going Infinite. You have to be able to draft a good draft every time the game gives you the option and make the most out of times when it doesn't. If you just give up on every bad draft that comes you wont' go infinite, even if you can take The Best draft to 12. This is taking the worst draft you can make to at least 3, and taking some bad drafts to 7-12. Luck is against you instead of for you at this point so getting past that takes more than what the others do.
Top 100 legend. Well, less than .1% of the population will ever get to this point during their game careers even with every good deck being available to research and most of us having the cards to make them.
Anyone who says that getting legend is harder than averaging 7 in arena hasn't tracked their arena stats. Simple as that.
There's no comparison. Legend is just a matter of time if you want it. Barely a matter of skill at all.
Btw if you want to go "infinite" in arena, you don't need to average 7 wins. I have tracked 55 arenas so far and average 6.71 wins but average 154 gold as rewards. But I have a 70.84% win rate. The reason is that 12 win runs can end at 12-2, 12-1 or 12-0 so they "lower" your arena average while at the same time increasing your avg wins and avg rewards.
I think to go infinite though you need to average 70% win rate.
I don't get the people saying getting legend is harder. Yes it requires skill but you can achieve it with one class, so it just a lot of time and practice. You will with most deck just do the same thing over and over again. Your deck will be fairly consistent.
In arena you always have to adept your playing style to the class you got and the cards in the draft, decks aren't consistent at all and you have to have a much higher winrate. 70% against like only 50%+ to get legend.
infinite is way easier than hitting legend. This is because most arena players aren't very good at drafting decks so constructed were optimal cards are chosen in both players decks is much easier.
Edit: I am both a constructed legend and infinite arena so I'm not biased to either side
Hello out there...I was wondering what you all thought which accomplishment demonstrates or requires more skill at hearthstone: reaching legend in a season or becoming an infinite arena player (assume 30+ runs...or a number that's enough to ensure a non-tiny sample size)? Oh, for the purpose of this I'm defining an infinite arena player as someone who actually does average 7+ wins. The fact that technically you don't need quite that many with quests to get there is not the point here.
Both are two completely different skill sets and depend on certain circumstances and match ups. Overall I'd place them at equal skill wise but I can see how one can argue in either direction.
Mistakes were made
I would say infinite arena is more difficult.
Two points.
Card pool : In arena the cards you have to be prepared for in any given game are of a bigger variety than in constructed. Especially as a game progresses in constructed both the card count and archetype make the constructed deck more predictable.
Construction : putting together a sound Arena deck takes a lot of skill, choosing a solid deck to get to Legendary is just personal preference.
The main limiting factor for achieving legendary is having time and patience. You can't hit Legendary playing just an hour a day after work, unless you're quite fortunate. Also you need to keep your head and trust that if you play correctly, you will eventually hit Legendary.
Both accomplishments are still very impressive and should not be belittled!
How interesting
As others have said, they really are two entirely different beasts. That doesn't mean they can't be compared though. I would say that going infinite in arena is a bit harder.
In constructed you have much more control over every aspect of your games, from your deck to what you tech against. It more of a time factor and remaining in a good mindset. Knowing when to take breaks so you don't take massive dives in ranks in one sitting.
But in arena the variables vary widely. It isn't hard to hit 7 or 9 wins, but to average 7+ is a lot harder. You aren't sure of anything, from if you opponent has 2 Flamestrikes or if they are packing 4, any number of things can cause games to swing wildly from one persons advantage to to others. You just have to prepare for anything and 95% of the time go for the most value cards/trades. Along with the cards you're given, even if you know how to draft well, sometimes you just get to decided which card is less crap.
In my opinion infinite arena is more of a challenge, but not unobtainable. Since GvG getting steady 7+ has become a bit harder and players have become somewhat better. Good luck whatever you goal is. (I have over 600 arena games played and am pretty decent but still not infinite, close, but it's not easy.)
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. - T. E. Lawrence
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Definitely arena. Unless you happen to have also created your own constructed deck from scratch it's basically just a case of playing it over and over and over with a win rate anything above 50%, which does not requite much skill. Legend is a test of patience. Arena is a test of skill, at least if youre going infinite time after time and not just that once you got 4 flame strikes, 3 fireballs and a pyroblast.
Well i guess by nature, arena requires more RNG then legand, andarrives quicker.
ranked needs more commitment. if you play enough you will get there.
I really laughed at this comment... getting 12 wins is definetly easier than getting legend, and also takes way less time.
couldn't agree more.
Arena is always the same strategy, there are no real match up: just staple cards you hope to pick/ not face, and play around them.
Then, clear and control board, go face, gain card advantage, don't over extend. With this and all the websites that help you to build a deck, you will get a 12 win very very fast...
Constructed is a lot of "netdecking", I can't deny that. Which means: you don't have deck advantage over the opponent, since you have the same decks, more or less personnal preference/changes. Which means, only skill and rng will make a difference, and in the long run, everybody's chance balance itself out (more or less). So skill is the main factor at the end of the day. In arena, everybody can do the deck building in the same way, everybody uses the same skill (clearing, controlling and doing value trades are really not that hard to understand), so at the end of the day, the factor that will help the most will be the deck itself: did u get a lucky draft/what the did opponent get. You can hate it all you want, but if u practice arena a lot, you will become infinite at some point, because you mastered the basic required skills. And you will sometimes still go 1-3, because your draft is awful and there is nothing you could have done to prevent that.
In constructed, once you have the skills to go legend, you will not have a next season "stuck at rank 14", because skill is what matter the most, and is the hardest to acquire.
Yeah getting 12 wins is a lot easier than getting legend, getting legend is very time dependent and also skill dependent. However I am willing to state that players with above average (not good just above average) skill and access to all the cards (not even needed) can get to legend if they have enough time to play the game. In arena I am willing to bet that getting a >70% win rate over a long period (above 100 arena runs) is only achievable with skill.
Having said that most great players will be good at both constructed and arena, but the skills do not translate directly as both modes have distinctly different playing styles. The best time however to farm arena for gold is just after an adventure or expansion has been launched as a lot of people who don't usually play arena come and test the new cards before buying or crafting them and thus players not used to arena drafting ensures a lot of free wins for a couple of weeks after a new launch.
Getting legend obviously takes long time, but most people just rush face with hunter or mage till rank 5, so the skill part only becomes important during the last few ranks.
Greetings traveler.
On ladder you know you're probably going to face the same 5-8 decks again and again with hardly any variation. All the best decks are tough, but you know what you're likely to face each game. So it's far from impossible to grind to legend in a season, assuming you've got the time and the cards and the dedication. Arena is entirely different. You've gotta be prepared to essentially face any and every card in the game at unexpected times. Chances are you'll see something you'd NEVER see on ladder and it may kill you. Luck also helps but it can't save you every time.
Bottom line, you can reach legend if you play ALL month with a 55-60% winrate. Getting 7+ wins consistently in Arena requires a winrate closer to 80% which is far more difficult with random decks and no way to know what you're facing from game to game. Much respect to anyone who's ever reached legend, but if you're infinite in Arena.....chances are you've already reached legend several times and just wanna earn more free cards/gold.
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Well ranked is all about deck building, knowing the meta, knowing the best decks, guessing what deck your opponent is playing etc. Ofc you can play the most powerful deck but it does take skill once you are facing legendary players so I'd say it takes a lot of knowledge of the game and the meta to be a legendary player which is 0.5% of all ranked players. But then again Arena is all about winning in any circumstances, so it tests your skill when you have to use somewhat sloppy deck with pretty bad cards while your opponent has 3 legendaries in their deck. So I'd say they are both equally difficult.
I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. For the record, though I primarily play arena I was in no way trying to suggest that both don't require a lot of skill. Both are unquestionably an accomplishment. I was just wondering about the perception of one as compared to the other. I know they are different, but to say that you can't compare them at all seems like a fallacy. I mean it is the same game.
Maybe the best way to compare is if you knew the average number of games it takes a person to reach legend, divide by 7 (# of wins I'm using to define infinite arena) and use that number of arena runs to average 7+ as compared to reaching legend. Again I'm not talking about a single 12 win arena. one poster I think compared a 12 win win run to reaching top 100 legend...there's no question that reaching top 100 is the harder one. Maybe top 100 could be compared to averaging 10+ wins which is probably impossible.
I would say becoming an infinite arena player is harder than reaching legend because drafting is a challenging process.
Constructed requires more skillful plays than arena, but if you netdeck some really good decks, understand all of your opponents decks, and play a lot of games you will reach legend in time.
Getting 12 wins < Reaching Legend < Infinite Arena Player < Finishing in Top 100 in Legend at the end of the season
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From a newer player's perspective, reaching 12 wins at all is a lot about having hte right deck. That's NOT random purely as newer players wont' know how to craft the right deck and following a card priority guide will NOT get you a 12 win deck. You need to know enough about drafting to get the right deck. That said, a great draw with this knowledge is all you need to get a 12 win deck.
Reaching legend is a similar mentality. You need to know deck types, the meta, know which deck to use and to know how to use it. You also have to be ready for the meta switch at rank 5's 'wall'. It's not the same but similar in difficulty to good arena runs. What makes legend harder is afterwards: the grind. I'm not including the old "I don't have time for that many games" and pretending everyone DOES have time. What they won't have is stamina to play that many games and the mental ability to keep a positive attitude. Tilt kills a lot of people's chances, even if they know how to get to legend. 12 win runs don't have that.
While 12 wins can be gotten by just waiting for a good draft, and legend can be reached once you've reasearched the right deck to use, none of that helps you for going Infinite. You have to be able to draft a good draft every time the game gives you the option and make the most out of times when it doesn't. If you just give up on every bad draft that comes you wont' go infinite, even if you can take The Best draft to 12. This is taking the worst draft you can make to at least 3, and taking some bad drafts to 7-12. Luck is against you instead of for you at this point so getting past that takes more than what the others do.
Top 100 legend. Well, less than .1% of the population will ever get to this point during their game careers even with every good deck being available to research and most of us having the cards to make them.
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Anyone who says that getting legend is harder than averaging 7 in arena hasn't tracked their arena stats.
Simple as that.
There's no comparison. Legend is just a matter of time if you want it. Barely a matter of skill at all.
Btw if you want to go "infinite" in arena, you don't need to average 7 wins. I have tracked 55 arenas so far and average 6.71 wins but average 154 gold as rewards. But I have a 70.84% win rate. The reason is that 12 win runs can end at 12-2, 12-1 or 12-0 so they "lower" your arena average while at the same time increasing your avg wins and avg rewards.
I think to go infinite though you need to average 70% win rate.
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I don't get the people saying getting legend is harder. Yes it requires skill but you can achieve it with one class, so it just a lot of time and practice. You will with most deck just do the same thing over and over again. Your deck will be fairly consistent.
In arena you always have to adept your playing style to the class you got and the cards in the draft, decks aren't consistent at all and you have to have a much higher winrate. 70% against like only 50%+ to get legend.
infinite is way easier than hitting legend. This is because most arena players aren't very good at drafting decks so constructed were optimal cards are chosen in both players decks is much easier.
Edit: I am both a constructed legend and infinite arena so I'm not biased to either side
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Highest rank: legend rank 9 Highest finish: legend rank 103 Infinite Arena Player