Am I the only one finding the timing of this nerf a little odd? Look it can be debated all day whether or not the nerf was the right thing to do (it probably was) but why nerf it 6 MONTHS after release? It's been OP forever, and just a few weeks ago Ben Brode made it sound like it would be left the same for quite a while longer.
My hypothesis? Nobody is spending money on Nax any more and Blizzard needs to push F2P to open their wallets to GvG. What easier way than nerfing a strong card in cheap decks.
Maybe I'm wrong, crazy or just plain stupid but something just seems a little off with the timing of everything. Maybe an expansion in the spring with more low-cost deathrattle? Or maybe not...
This is far-fetched, OP. It's a big stretch to presume that Hearthstone is struggling for cashflow. The game is enormously popular, worldwide. I realize that it's possible to be a truly "free to play" player, but even the most miserly players still spend at least SOME money on packs or Arenas occassionally. A couple dollars here or there X millions of accounts = plenty of money.
The game's developers are mainly interested in maintaining competitive balance and ensuring a diverse meta. When the meta is diverse, people are generally happier and far less likely to complain that they are "getting screwed" by a specific decklist/class. If the game stays diverse and interesting, people will play. When people play, they will spend money (a lot or a little, depending on the person). Hearthstone has become so huge that in-game purchases may eventually no longer be the main source of income for the game. If the tournament scene continues to grow (likely), then sponsorships and advertising at events will bring big revenues.
good points, dreamcrusher. i'd love to know the stats for paying vs. F2P players - chances are I assume there is more F2P than there really is. thanks for bringing me back to reality and away from conspiracy theory!
Blizzard likes money first and foremost. We all know this, just look at their other games. You can buy a level 90 in WoW right now. Pretty sad. The game itself is pretty neat, but it's run with the intention of making money and ONLY making money.
Yeah, WoW has been so popular for 10 years because all blizzard cards about is money... right. They actually listen to the community and make their games better/more balanced. WoW is constantly being tweaked for better or for worse, but these days there's room for the ultra casual to ultra hardcore players. HS is a year old, has a really small team and is still in it's beginning stages. I'm guessing they did a lot of play testing with popular decks and looking at all the hate for undertaker and decided a nerf was needed. Or maybe they got front row seats to a match where some "pro" HS players got wrecked by a run of the mill huntertaker deck ;)
^ Must be Blizzard's favorite kind of sheep, lol. Keep throwing your money blindly at them. It's annoying that everyone thinks Blizzard is a fan-centric company. $$$ speaks louder than any community. Go look at the mess WoW is in right now. The game is good, and I'm enjoying it while it is good. I happen to have money I can spend on the game, and I like cardgames, so I do. But don't trick yourself into thinking Blizzard sees you as any more than a profit margin.
Blizzard likes money first and foremost. We all know this, just look at their other games. You can buy a level 90 in WoW right now. Pretty sad. The game itself is pretty neat, but it's run with the intention of making money and ONLY making money.
What's sad is how much of a lose/lose people put companies in. Blizzard refused to allow free lvl X characters for a long time on WoW when other games were already doing so. For like 8+ years they got reports from players of gold/character farmers ripping them off. Then they finally implement a system to allow it and people point to it as an example of how greedy the company is. They literally were begged by their player base for that feature and now its proof of how greedy they are.
well it's definitely profit related and a very smart move. it "balances" the game at higher levels where people have paid collections of cards, run control decks amongst others, and are tired of getting stomped by F2P undertaker huntards. at the same time it makes it harder to compete at the f2p level and makes mech decks (i.e. new shiny GvG cards) implicitly better. why did blizzard wait? because they wanted their free players in deeper before bringing out the hammer!
I don't even play WoW. I like HS because it's like MTG but I can play it whenever I want and not need physical cards or to keep up with the current "block" or whatever. I played type 1 magic back in the day when everything was legal, to many restrictions just gets annoying. I remember my decks going invalid every month when newer cards came out so I had to build a whole new deck and buy more cards, screw that. HS has a lot of flaws, and room for improvement, but it works.
What's sad is how much of a lose/lose people put companies in. Blizzard refused to allow free lvl X characters for a long time on WoW when other games were already doing so. For like 8+ years they got reports from players of gold/character farmers ripping them off. Then they finally implement a system to allow it and people point to it as an example of how greedy the company is. They literally were begged by their player base for that feature and now its proof of how greedy they are.
There isn't really a lose-lose situation. It actually helps Blizzard that people think a company has no choice but to take advantage of their customers. That's completely false. Companies can easily be run on a true free2play model. League is the prime example. Even though a moba is much different from the card game genre, the basic premise still stands: You can be successful while keeping your integrity as a game producer. Witcher 3 is also taking a stand against paid DLC, which is another form of money grabbing that spawned from the expansion system, only targeted toward the console market.
Undertaker is only a Faux budget card. It takes 2800 gold to acquire them which is about as much gold as 1 1/2 legendries. If anything it took so long to nerf Undertaker because it’s against their business interests to do so, New players will no longer be obligated to sink 2800 gold or $$ into buying the first 4 wings of nax to make a competitive "budget" deck
Undertaker is only a Faux budget card. It takes 2800 gold to acquire them which is about as much gold as 1 1/2 legendries. If anything it took so long to nerf Undertaker because it’s against their business interests to do so, New players will no longer be obligated to sink 2800 gold or $$ into buying the first 4 wings of nax to make a competitive "budget" deck
you also pick up a slew of legendaries, epics and class cards along the way. not to mention that adventure mode was incredibly fun. don't act like 2x undertakers cost 2800 gold unless you're drinking the kool aid too. nax is probably the most fun and efficient way to spend gold.
don't get me wrong, i dished out money for nax, bought a lot of packs and will continue to do so. i'm trying to pick apart this nerf because i'm not convinced they did it to make the whiners happy. people have been whining for months about Undertaker, and much harder than people were complaining about Buzzard and Leeroy. their story just doesn't make sense because of the timing of everything. I wish Blizzard would be honest and say they made the change to "evolve" the game; not to fix it.
^ Must be Blizzard's favorite kind of sheep, lol. Keep throwing your money blindly at them. It's annoying that everyone thinks Blizzard is a fan-centric company. $$$ speaks louder than any community. Go look at the mess WoW is in right now. The game is good, and I'm enjoying it while it is good. I happen to have money I can spend on the game, and I like cardgames, so I do. But don't trick yourself into thinking Blizzard sees you as any more than a profit margin.
Quite hysterical. I can only assume you've never looked at some truly rapacious game devs. I suggest you go check out some mobile games, that seems to be where the worst of them congregate.
Of course Blizzard is a company and their job is to make a profit. But I think you're the sheep blindly following the "cool" kids hating on the internets if you think Blizzard are on the end of the scale which most prioritizes cash grabbing, and least prioritizes achieving success by making games that people want to buy.
The mindset some of you guys take to your hobbies these days is pretty sad ive to say, I collected magic the gathering/yu-gi-oh and warhammer 40k tabletop for years when I was younger and do you know what happened if I didnt pay money to get new boosters/models.....you guessed it, I got jack shit regardless of how much time I spent per day playing it. Even if you are free to play you could have collected around 40ish packs by now plus the 3 free packs you got just by logging in, thats 45 euros saved and you should have gotten a lot of the basic gvg cards from it. At the end of the day the only thing that forces you to buy packs/naxx is your sense of accomplishment from achieving a virtual rank in on online game. Hobbyists will spend money on their hobby from time to time as a form of entertainment and pleasure for themselves, its not a new or shocking revelation.
i just posted my theory in another thread but thought it is more relevant here:
Blizzard is running a formula. Dr. Boom is a great example. he is OP, so people want him. they pay money to buy packs and get lucky (probably not) or spend 1600 dust to craft him. cha-ching. fast forward to next expansion. Dr. Boom remains OP (just like Undertaker remained OP for 6 months) so he now, finally, needs to be nerfed to balance the game. Makes no difference to Blizzard because everyone already paid for him and now are buying the next best thing. He will still be a good card and most people won't disenchant him even for the full dust. it's brilliant.
What's sad is how much of a lose/lose people put companies in. Blizzard refused to allow free lvl X characters for a long time on WoW when other games were already doing so. For like 8+ years they got reports from players of gold/character farmers ripping them off. Then they finally implement a system to allow it and people point to it as an example of how greedy the company is. They literally were begged by their player base for that feature and now its proof of how greedy they are.
There isn't really a lose-lose situation. It actually helps Blizzard that people think a company has no choice but to take advantage of their customers. That's completely false. Companies can easily be run on a true free2play model. League is the prime example. Even though a moba is much different from the card game genre, the basic premise still stands: You can be successful while keeping your integrity as a game producer. Witcher 3 is also taking a stand against paid DLC, which is another form of money grabbing that spawned from the expansion system, only targeted toward the console market.
From a PR standpoint it is a lose/lose because no matter what they do they have people like you saying its 100% greed. Fact of the matter is the more balanced they can keep the meta the more people will play. The more people playing the more money spent. Its not a hard idea to grasp that maybe they really are trying to put players first.
As for your other examples, How is what League is doing different than what HS is doing? They have nerfs and character reworks quite often. At least HS has some way to get your investment back on changes. The models are actually extremely similar.
And really DLC is a money grab based on the console market? What is different between DLC and CD based expansions? Here is a short list of games that all had paid content added on after release: Command and Conquer, Diablo, Total Annihilation, Syndicate, The Sims, Duke Nukem, Age of Empires. All of those were before the era of web-enabled consoles and were almost exclusively PC. All of these were also critically acclaimed and adored by fans. None of this is new. Everyone just gets more butthurt about it because they perceive it to be greed. That's where the lose/lose part comes in. Your negative attitude is affecting the perceived enjoyment of the game. Stop carrying that into the gameplay experience and you might just find more child-like joy in games. Because your child self sure as fuck didn't bring those questions into whether or not they liked a game.
You know what happens when a good movie comes out... I pay to go see it.
You know what happens when a bad movie comes out... I don't go see it.
You know what happens when a free movie comes out... that doesn't happen.
Blizzard is a company that continues to produce extremely (opinion) entertaining games and contrary to popular belief, their employees show up every day because they collect a paycheck. The fact that there is even a F2P model is a gift and its absurd that people complain that its not good enough. Continue to complain if you must, but you must purchase your opinion.
To address OP comment: Blizzard will make far more money by producing a balanced game that appeals to the long term player. A change for a short term boost in income will likely be a net loss over time.
OP I have an honest question, when could they have done this nerf that you would not have thought it was to stimulate buying packs? I mean if they did it right after Nax then would you have said that they were doing it to screw over everyone buying Nax forcing them to keep buying classic packs? Pre-GvG would you have said it was to prep for GvG? Immediately post GvG, obviously you would have been saying the same thing as you are now. I'm just pointing out that no matter when its done a nefarious reason can be found. I think this is when it makes the most sense. Any other time and the meta was too questionable to have that upheaval. With no card releases in sight and a meta slowing down after a major card release, its pretty clear that nothing is going to knock Undertaker from its perch as one of the best cards in HS without a nerf. Any other time since it was released and we would have always had questions if the meta would have stabilized. There is a reason that Nat Pagle, Novice Engineer, and many other card nerfs are being questioned now. The meta changed to a point where they would probably be fine today in their old form. We won't ever have that question with UT.
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Am I the only one finding the timing of this nerf a little odd? Look it can be debated all day whether or not the nerf was the right thing to do (it probably was) but why nerf it 6 MONTHS after release? It's been OP forever, and just a few weeks ago Ben Brode made it sound like it would be left the same for quite a while longer.
My hypothesis? Nobody is spending money on Nax any more and Blizzard needs to push F2P to open their wallets to GvG. What easier way than nerfing a strong card in cheap decks.
Maybe I'm wrong, crazy or just plain stupid but something just seems a little off with the timing of everything. Maybe an expansion in the spring with more low-cost deathrattle? Or maybe not...
let me change your mind...
This is far-fetched, OP. It's a big stretch to presume that Hearthstone is struggling for cashflow. The game is enormously popular, worldwide. I realize that it's possible to be a truly "free to play" player, but even the most miserly players still spend at least SOME money on packs or Arenas occassionally. A couple dollars here or there X millions of accounts = plenty of money.
The game's developers are mainly interested in maintaining competitive balance and ensuring a diverse meta. When the meta is diverse, people are generally happier and far less likely to complain that they are "getting screwed" by a specific decklist/class. If the game stays diverse and interesting, people will play. When people play, they will spend money (a lot or a little, depending on the person). Hearthstone has become so huge that in-game purchases may eventually no longer be the main source of income for the game. If the tournament scene continues to grow (likely), then sponsorships and advertising at events will bring big revenues.
good points, dreamcrusher. i'd love to know the stats for paying vs. F2P players - chances are I assume there is more F2P than there really is. thanks for bringing me back to reality and away from conspiracy theory!
let me change your mind...
Blizzard likes money first and foremost. We all know this, just look at their other games. You can buy a level 90 in WoW right now. Pretty sad. The game itself is pretty neat, but it's run with the intention of making money and ONLY making money.
undertaker will no longer grow in health, just attack.
Yeah, WoW has been so popular for 10 years because all blizzard cards about is money... right. They actually listen to the community and make their games better/more balanced. WoW is constantly being tweaked for better or for worse, but these days there's room for the ultra casual to ultra hardcore players. HS is a year old, has a really small team and is still in it's beginning stages. I'm guessing they did a lot of play testing with popular decks and looking at all the hate for undertaker and decided a nerf was needed. Or maybe they got front row seats to a match where some "pro" HS players got wrecked by a run of the mill huntertaker deck ;)
^ Must be Blizzard's favorite kind of sheep, lol. Keep throwing your money blindly at them. It's annoying that everyone thinks Blizzard is a fan-centric company. $$$ speaks louder than any community. Go look at the mess WoW is in right now. The game is good, and I'm enjoying it while it is good. I happen to have money I can spend on the game, and I like cardgames, so I do. But don't trick yourself into thinking Blizzard sees you as any more than a profit margin.
What's sad is how much of a lose/lose people put companies in. Blizzard refused to allow free lvl X characters for a long time on WoW when other games were already doing so. For like 8+ years they got reports from players of gold/character farmers ripping them off. Then they finally implement a system to allow it and people point to it as an example of how greedy the company is. They literally were begged by their player base for that feature and now its proof of how greedy they are.
well it's definitely profit related and a very smart move. it "balances" the game at higher levels where people have paid collections of cards, run control decks amongst others, and are tired of getting stomped by F2P undertaker huntards. at the same time it makes it harder to compete at the f2p level and makes mech decks (i.e. new shiny GvG cards) implicitly better. why did blizzard wait? because they wanted their free players in deeper before bringing out the hammer!
let me change your mind...
I don't even play WoW. I like HS because it's like MTG but I can play it whenever I want and not need physical cards or to keep up with the current "block" or whatever. I played type 1 magic back in the day when everything was legal, to many restrictions just gets annoying. I remember my decks going invalid every month when newer cards came out so I had to build a whole new deck and buy more cards, screw that. HS has a lot of flaws, and room for improvement, but it works.
It is because they are as greedy as the devil
There isn't really a lose-lose situation. It actually helps Blizzard that people think a company has no choice but to take advantage of their customers. That's completely false. Companies can easily be run on a true free2play model. League is the prime example. Even though a moba is much different from the card game genre, the basic premise still stands: You can be successful while keeping your integrity as a game producer. Witcher 3 is also taking a stand against paid DLC, which is another form of money grabbing that spawned from the expansion system, only targeted toward the console market.
Undertaker is only a Faux budget card. It takes 2800 gold to acquire them which is about as much gold as 1 1/2 legendries. If anything it took so long to nerf Undertaker because it’s against their business interests to do so, New players will no longer be obligated to sink 2800 gold or $$ into buying the first 4 wings of nax to make a competitive "budget" deck
you also pick up a slew of legendaries, epics and class cards along the way. not to mention that adventure mode was incredibly fun. don't act like 2x undertakers cost 2800 gold unless you're drinking the kool aid too. nax is probably the most fun and efficient way to spend gold.
don't get me wrong, i dished out money for nax, bought a lot of packs and will continue to do so. i'm trying to pick apart this nerf because i'm not convinced they did it to make the whiners happy. people have been whining for months about Undertaker, and much harder than people were complaining about Buzzard and Leeroy. their story just doesn't make sense because of the timing of everything. I wish Blizzard would be honest and say they made the change to "evolve" the game; not to fix it.
let me change your mind...
Quite hysterical. I can only assume you've never looked at some truly rapacious game devs. I suggest you go check out some mobile games, that seems to be where the worst of them congregate.
Of course Blizzard is a company and their job is to make a profit. But I think you're the sheep blindly following the "cool" kids hating on the internets if you think Blizzard are on the end of the scale which most prioritizes cash grabbing, and least prioritizes achieving success by making games that people want to buy.
The mindset some of you guys take to your hobbies these days is pretty sad ive to say, I collected magic the gathering/yu-gi-oh and warhammer 40k tabletop for years when I was younger and do you know what happened if I didnt pay money to get new boosters/models.....you guessed it, I got jack shit regardless of how much time I spent per day playing it. Even if you are free to play you could have collected around 40ish packs by now plus the 3 free packs you got just by logging in, thats 45 euros saved and you should have gotten a lot of the basic gvg cards from it. At the end of the day the only thing that forces you to buy packs/naxx is your sense of accomplishment from achieving a virtual rank in on online game. Hobbyists will spend money on their hobby from time to time as a form of entertainment and pleasure for themselves, its not a new or shocking revelation.
i just posted my theory in another thread but thought it is more relevant here:
Blizzard is running a formula. Dr. Boom is a great example. he is OP, so people want him. they pay money to buy packs and get lucky (probably not) or spend 1600 dust to craft him. cha-ching. fast forward to next expansion. Dr. Boom remains OP (just like Undertaker remained OP for 6 months) so he now, finally, needs to be nerfed to balance the game. Makes no difference to Blizzard because everyone already paid for him and now are buying the next best thing. He will still be a good card and most people won't disenchant him even for the full dust. it's brilliant.
let me change your mind...
From a PR standpoint it is a lose/lose because no matter what they do they have people like you saying its 100% greed. Fact of the matter is the more balanced they can keep the meta the more people will play. The more people playing the more money spent. Its not a hard idea to grasp that maybe they really are trying to put players first.
As for your other examples, How is what League is doing different than what HS is doing? They have nerfs and character reworks quite often. At least HS has some way to get your investment back on changes. The models are actually extremely similar.
And really DLC is a money grab based on the console market? What is different between DLC and CD based expansions? Here is a short list of games that all had paid content added on after release: Command and Conquer, Diablo, Total Annihilation, Syndicate, The Sims, Duke Nukem, Age of Empires. All of those were before the era of web-enabled consoles and were almost exclusively PC. All of these were also critically acclaimed and adored by fans. None of this is new. Everyone just gets more butthurt about it because they perceive it to be greed. That's where the lose/lose part comes in. Your negative attitude is affecting the perceived enjoyment of the game. Stop carrying that into the gameplay experience and you might just find more child-like joy in games. Because your child self sure as fuck didn't bring those questions into whether or not they liked a game.
You know what happens when a good movie comes out... I pay to go see it.
You know what happens when a bad movie comes out... I don't go see it.
You know what happens when a free movie comes out... that doesn't happen.
Blizzard is a company that continues to produce extremely (opinion) entertaining games and contrary to popular belief, their employees show up every day because they collect a paycheck. The fact that there is even a F2P model is a gift and its absurd that people complain that its not good enough. Continue to complain if you must, but you must purchase your opinion.
To address OP comment: Blizzard will make far more money by producing a balanced game that appeals to the long term player. A change for a short term boost in income will likely be a net loss over time.
OP I have an honest question, when could they have done this nerf that you would not have thought it was to stimulate buying packs? I mean if they did it right after Nax then would you have said that they were doing it to screw over everyone buying Nax forcing them to keep buying classic packs? Pre-GvG would you have said it was to prep for GvG? Immediately post GvG, obviously you would have been saying the same thing as you are now. I'm just pointing out that no matter when its done a nefarious reason can be found. I think this is when it makes the most sense. Any other time and the meta was too questionable to have that upheaval. With no card releases in sight and a meta slowing down after a major card release, its pretty clear that nothing is going to knock Undertaker from its perch as one of the best cards in HS without a nerf. Any other time since it was released and we would have always had questions if the meta would have stabilized. There is a reason that Nat Pagle, Novice Engineer, and many other card nerfs are being questioned now. The meta changed to a point where they would probably be fine today in their old form. We won't ever have that question with UT.