Something has been bugging me recently especially with the upcoming release of GvG cards..
Does anyone feel that Hearthstone is getting a little bit TOO RNG ? (that skillful card play is taking a back seat?) I always feel so robbed when my opponent draws the only card in his deck which allows him to win. =p
I was (well, still am really) an avid chess player and I kinda miss the non RNG play that chess has (hardly any luck involved, unless you consider your opponent missing a mistake or that your opponent overlooking a tactic)
Does anyone feel the same way as me? Would love to hear what the Hearthstone community thinks.
I would still continue playing Hearthstone though, it's a great game.
I have quite a hard time with this as well, I've always loved skill-based games. The amount of games I've lost because of enemy topdecks or not getting a certain topdeck myself for several turns is to damn high. So I'm fully on your side.
It's hard to say if it's too much RNG before we get to test constructed in GvG.
You can't really compare Hearthstone to Chess I think. If you made Hearthstone a non-RNG game, it would be extremely boring, and everyone would run the same deck. A little RNG is good for the game I think. And the RNG cards they added to GvG are mostly situational cards that most likely wont see much play in higher ranks.
The good thing about RNG is: the more elements of RNG a game has, the less important each element becomes and the more likely an average game result will occure. Of course it has the chance of superduper OP luck and vice versa. But that's just the game.
I like playing chess for being purely skillbased, moreso with variants like blitzchess. But I also like HS (and TCGs in general) for having unknown elements which either win or lose you the game instantly. If you don't like the element, you can skip it. Sure, you can't decide what your opponent plays (except in flist games of course), but it still requires your skill to play around it. Make RNG bad for him, and have a blast outskilling your opponents plays.
No matter you look at it, random adds an increased skillrequirement to this game. :)
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Also an avid chess player (1900 FIDE), but you have to understand Hearthstone and Chess are totally different games. Taking from game theory, there are two gauges to games: skill and random factors.
Hearthstone and most other card games are high skill, high randomness games. Games like chess are classified as high skill, no randomness games.
While both are games, you cannot categorize them together and expect a level playing field from both. At least in Hearthstone, there is potential for skill, i.e., a person good at hearthstone will always have a higher win ratio than a lower skill player despite the RNG.
There are times where you will get tired of the RNG and I get that - but nothing can be done except improve yourself, your mindset, and take a break. Perhaps I'll see you on online chess!
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Ha ha, wow, you would probably kick my butt with 1900 ELO FIDE rating. I am rated online around 1600. Maybe having a bit of RNG would be a good thing then. I play on chess.com. userid is gambitattack. Let's have a game sometime.
The biggest rng factor is the shuffled deck. It's self explanatory, but often overlooked, because we tend to focus on the explicit rng effects from cards. We even get to mulligan to somewhat affect this.
I'm actually loving the new rng in gvg, because it gives me more opportunities to calculate odds, and make a somewhat qualified decision. Because of my poker experience I'd even welcome more rng, since it would give me an advantage; making correct probabilistic decisions in the long run would result in a more significant edge.
There's a difference between a Mad Bomber you're choosing to put down, and the simple un-fun RNG of; "Look at all of these USELESS cards in my hand! :D"
This is why I mostly play casual. It still pairs you according to MMR so you are playing people of "equal ability", you see more creative decks, and you can even enjoy losing when it's to a crazy combo or insane wackiness like 3 x Thaddius on the board.
Just wanted to add something from the perspective of a strong chess player (FIDE master, ~2300 ELO): One thing one has to admit in chess is that you can't calculate everything, the horizon stops at some point. The better player you are, the farer the horizon goes. So for me, there is also some kind of RNG in chess, i.e. when you reach your calculation horizon, it's intuition that tells you if this position is promising or not. If it really is or not you can find out maybe only later, so this is some kind of RNG (although I understand if you disagree with this sentence). However, intuition can be developed through experience. The same goes for the hearthstone RNG. With more experience you can improve your intuition if the RNG works in favour of you or not (respectively how probable is it that RNG works or not).
There are some similarities between chess and HS anyway, for example to make good trades is important in HS as well as in chess (and for chess players: I don't only think of some obvious good trades like rook for a bishop, but also something like sacrificing a pawn for good attacking perspectives.)
you are unable to perform actions in your opponent turn and viceversa, your turn is an untouchabble temple where you have to worry about nothing but Future actions and not what might happen during it, there are no instants, no trap cards, no quick action cards, no Manually triggered effects, No tapping effects, nothing that can destabilize a player on their own turn, and that's where Rng must come into play, otherwise the game wouldn't have depth.
As an example explosive sheep in mtg would look something like this Costs 2 colorless Mana Type:Creature Artifact
1/1
Effect 2R and tap: sacrifice explosive sheep and deal to damage to all minions. if you are unfamiliar with it, Mtg allows you to activate creature's effects in the opponent's turn as response to actions performed by your opponent, thus sheep would be an AMAZING card in Mtg while in hs it's just an above aveage card which barely scratches the surface of "good"
edit: Sure some people will say but there are secrets, well secrets have 3 problems, the owner only has control on when to play it from hand and not on when to activate them (who'd activatemirror entity on an acolyte of pain or mad scienist knowing that Cairne or Sylvannas is comming?) , the secret pool is small and only 3 out of the 9 classes have access to them 2 if you count that paladins secrets are not that great granting that when you play against a pally with a secret it will probably be noble sac,
Something has been bugging me recently especially with the upcoming release of GvG cards..
Does anyone feel that Hearthstone is getting a little bit TOO RNG ? (that skillful card play is taking a back seat?) I always feel so robbed when my opponent draws the only card in his deck which allows him to win. =p
I was (well, still am really) an avid chess player and I kinda miss the non RNG play that chess has (hardly any luck involved, unless you consider your opponent missing a mistake or that your opponent overlooking a tactic)
Does anyone feel the same way as me? Would love to hear what the Hearthstone community thinks.
I would still continue playing Hearthstone though, it's a great game.
I have quite a hard time with this as well, I've always loved skill-based games. The amount of games I've lost because of enemy topdecks or not getting a certain topdeck myself for several turns is to damn high.
So I'm fully on your side.
-
It's hard to say if it's too much RNG before we get to test constructed in GvG.
You can't really compare Hearthstone to Chess I think. If you made Hearthstone a non-RNG game, it would be extremely boring, and everyone would run the same deck. A little RNG is good for the game I think. And the RNG cards they added to GvG are mostly situational cards that most likely wont see much play in higher ranks.
The good thing about RNG is: the more elements of RNG a game has, the less important each element becomes and the more likely an average game result will occure. Of course it has the chance of superduper OP luck and vice versa.
But that's just the game.
I like playing chess for being purely skillbased, moreso with variants like blitzchess.
But I also like HS (and TCGs in general) for having unknown elements which either win or lose you the game instantly. If you don't like the element, you can skip it. Sure, you can't decide what your opponent plays (except in flist games of course), but it still requires your skill to play around it. Make RNG bad for him, and have a blast outskilling your opponents plays.
No matter you look at it, random adds an increased skillrequirement to this game. :)
Please report toxic behaviour and unwanted threads, so the moderators can deal with them.
Also an avid chess player (1900 FIDE), but you have to understand Hearthstone and Chess are totally different games.
Taking from game theory, there are two gauges to games: skill and random factors.
Hearthstone and most other card games are high skill, high randomness games.
Games like chess are classified as high skill, no randomness games.
While both are games, you cannot categorize them together and expect a level playing field from both. At least in Hearthstone, there is potential for skill, i.e., a person good at hearthstone will always have a higher win ratio than a lower skill player despite the RNG.
There are times where you will get tired of the RNG and I get that - but nothing can be done except improve yourself, your mindset, and take a break. Perhaps I'll see you on online chess!
Vision without action is a dream. Action without vision is a nightmare.
you mean this game has something other than RNG?
Check out my decks & feel free to make suggestions!
Ha ha, wow, you would probably kick my butt with 1900 ELO FIDE rating. I am rated online around 1600. Maybe having a bit of RNG would be a good thing then. I play on chess.com. userid is gambitattack. Let's have a game sometime.
The biggest rng factor is the shuffled deck. It's self explanatory, but often overlooked, because we tend to focus on the explicit rng effects from cards. We even get to mulligan to somewhat affect this.
I'm actually loving the new rng in gvg, because it gives me more opportunities to calculate odds, and make a somewhat qualified decision. Because of my poker experience I'd even welcome more rng, since it would give me an advantage; making correct probabilistic decisions in the long run would result in a more significant edge.
GvG is fun RNG, imo.
There's a difference between a Mad Bomber you're choosing to put down, and the simple un-fun RNG of; "Look at all of these USELESS cards in my hand! :D"
This is why I mostly play casual. It still pairs you according to MMR so you are playing people of "equal ability", you see more creative decks, and you can even enjoy losing when it's to a crazy combo or insane wackiness like 3 x Thaddius on the board.
Just wanted to add something from the perspective of a strong chess player (FIDE master, ~2300 ELO):
One thing one has to admit in chess is that you can't calculate everything, the horizon stops at some point. The better player you are, the farer the horizon goes. So for me, there is also some kind of RNG in chess, i.e. when you reach your calculation horizon, it's intuition that tells you if this position is promising or not. If it really is or not you can find out maybe only later, so this is some kind of RNG (although I understand if you disagree with this sentence). However, intuition can be developed through experience. The same goes for the hearthstone RNG. With more experience you can improve your intuition if the RNG works in favour of you or not (respectively how probable is it that RNG works or not).
There are some similarities between chess and HS anyway, for example to make good trades is important in HS as well as in chess (and for chess players: I don't only think of some obvious good trades like rook for a bishop, but also something like sacrificing a pawn for good attacking perspectives.)
Hearthstone needs Rng for one simple reason
you are unable to perform actions in your opponent turn and viceversa, your turn is an untouchabble temple where you have to worry about nothing but Future actions and not what might happen during it, there are no instants, no trap cards, no quick action cards, no Manually triggered effects, No tapping effects, nothing that can destabilize a player on their own turn, and that's where Rng must come into play, otherwise the game wouldn't have depth.
As an example explosive sheep in mtg would look something like this
Costs 2 colorless Mana
Type:Creature Artifact
1/1
Effect
2R and tap: sacrifice explosive sheep and deal to damage to all minions. if you are unfamiliar with it, Mtg allows you to activate creature's effects in the opponent's turn as response to actions performed by your opponent, thus sheep would be an AMAZING card in Mtg while in hs it's just an above aveage card which barely scratches the surface of "good"
edit: Sure some people will say but there are secrets, well secrets have 3 problems, the owner only has control on when to play it from hand and not on when to activate them (who'd activatemirror entity on an acolyte of pain or mad scienist knowing that Cairne or Sylvannas is comming?) , the secret pool is small and only 3 out of the 9 classes have access to them 2 if you count that paladins secrets are not that great granting that when you play against a pally with a secret it will probably be noble sac,
How much would you say Is luck responsible for constructed game outcomes? I think deck building Is essential but it relies on playing hability