I am fine with it being a better assassinate that doesn't trigger deathrattle for 6 mana. But it is f***ing annoying to see the priest play your grommash, rag or sylvannas... it is just not fun.. cuz priest always makes u go to fatigue.. I WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH THE CARD IF IT JUST REMOVED THE CARD FROM PLAY INSTEAD OF PLAYING IT IN PRIEST'S DECK.
But rogue is now the only class that uses its face to clear the board ( And possibly one of the classes that do it the most, by far ) that can't heal ( With hunter. But hunter is the one doing the SMOrcing anyway and is currently pretty trash, so not really a counterargument ).
Blade Flurry might have lost the OIl but got the Squidface, which is probably just as good if not better as to buffing your weapon against aggro decks.
Rogue isn't only miracle because miracle is too good or anything, it's that rogue can't do anything else.
Control ? Without AOE or heal ? Yeah sure, keep dreaming. Also, the Combo keyword inherently clashes with combo ( Both the actual keyword and the fact rogue cards are usually played in pairs if not more ) by needing to play several cards a turn.
Zoo ? Well rogue can't really both draw a lot and be able to pull off a zoo approach ( Since you have to include a truck load of spells to draw ), so, no.
Midrange ? N'Zoth enables that, but even then, it's not all that good.
OTK Combo ? Without heal or AOE, again, not easy at all.
Miracle ? Well, yeah. Definitly.
Blizzard refuses to patch any weakness rogue has, and really keeps buffing Miracle, with e.g Xaril, Tomb Pillager or Shadow Strike, so it's unlikely this state is gonna change.
As to using mostly the Classic set, it's mostly that until LOE, Blizzard WAS going for a control rogue, with Anub'Arak, Shado-Pan Rider, Gallywix and all, but in a dumb way that didn't end up working. 'Cause, looking at my Miracle Rogue ( Not netdecked, so might not be very accurate, but I think it's pretty close to what anyone is playing ), all the non-Classic cards are from LOE or WOTOG.
Sorry i read ur text many times, didnt quite get all of it :S
Rogue has many pros like cheap tempo cards for example and many cons like not healing, over other classes. Not sure why you ask for more perks, you think its a weak class overall that has more cons than pros? Otherwise doesn't make sense.
Blizzard designs the classes with a certain mindset. They need to stand out and be unique. In a perfect world this would be possible together with every class being able to aggro-midrange-control-combo etc. We dont live in that world (cliche) so class flavour overshadows deck archetype quantity balance.
Its weird to give rogues healing and good late game cards since they already have been designed to be strong somewhere else. What im trying to say is you need to take something from them in order to give them something else. Unless as i said earlier you think rogues are weak and need to be buffed. Personally i think rogues are ok. Thats why im saying the class needs a rework.
They need to weaken rogue cheap tempo cards which most of them if not all are from classic/basic set in order to give them other viable tools.
I'm not saying rogue is weak, I'm saying it can't play anything other than miracle ( And thus quite badly design if you ask me ).
The problem with rogue playing other archetypes isn't that rogue lacks good cards, because rogue does have amazing control cards ( Or OTK, or whatever, even amazing cards in general ). Anub'Arak, baring a Sylvanas shenanigan, is an auto win against most control decks, and I'm pretty sure people would instantly have called for a nerf if it'd been a warrior or maybe even priest card.
It's that it has glaring weaknesses that strike down these archetypes before you would even consider what cards to put in them, no matter how good they hypothetically are. What's the point of playing an OTK deck when I'll never be able to pull it off anyway ? It's an hyperbole, but it's still mostly true that rogue decks are rendered bad by their weakness rather than not able to shine because of their strength that wouldn't be strong enough.
I'm not saying rogue NEEDS healing, AOE or whatever, 'cause it's faring rather well without it, so, by definition, it doesn't. I'm saying that unless rogue gets healing or something to patch its weaknesses, it won't bulge one inch from miracle rogue.
As to taking from rogue...Meh. I think you risk quite a lot making the only viable rogue deck bad for only a CHANCE at spawning new archetypes. This would be a lot simpler if only Blizzard made fairly regular balance patches, which would allow to just give rogue new stuff and then patch it until it's in a good state ( Whether by nerfing because it made rogue too good or buffing because it didn't achieve enough ), but, well...
Plus, f*ck no I'm not giving any rogue card to Blizzard after they already butchered Blade Flurry. Let Blizzard prove they can make something that isn't 3 years old and mostly only okay-ish ( Especially in ranked play meta ) out of Rogue before I'm fine with them nerfing the class ( Plus, a classic card nerf is a nerf forever, while it can be argued that quite a lot of miracle enablers are rotating out next year ).
Also saying rogue has good tempo is a stretch if you want to consider control decks and the likes, because tempo cards are for the most part dependent on the combo keyword, but that keyword forces you to play several cards a turn. That doesn't sound controllish to me, midrange at most, and even that. Rogue has good tempo as long as it builds a tempo deck, nothing else. I always think twice about putting "sap" in a control deck ( Because, before you ask, I have tried VERY hard to make control rogue work ), no matter how good for tempo the card is, because delaying usually doesn't help you ; Your game plan dictates you WILL have to deal with that threat, even if it's one turn later.
I'm not saying rogue is weak, I'm saying it can't play anything other than miracle ( And thus quite badly design if you ask me ).
The problem with rogue playing other archetypes isn't that rogue lacks good cards, because rogue does have amazing control cards ( Or OTK, or whatever, even amazing cards in general ). Anub'Arak, baring a Sylvanas shenanigan, is an auto win against most control decks, and I'm pretty sure people would instantly have called for a nerf if it'd been a warrior or maybe even priest card.
It's that it has glaring weaknesses that strike down these archetypes before you would even consider what cards to put in them, no matter how good they hypothetically are. What's the point of playing an OTK deck when I'll never be able to pull it off anyway ? It's an hyperbole, but it's still mostly true that rogue decks are rendered bad by their weakness rather than not able to shine because of their strength that wouldn't be strong enough.
I'm not saying rogue NEEDS healing, AOE or whatever, 'cause it's faring rather well without it, so, by definition, it doesn't. I'm saying that unless rogue gets healing or something to patch its weaknesses, it won't bulge one inch from miracle rogue.
As to taking from rogue...Meh. I think you risk quite a lot making the only viable rogue deck bad for only a CHANCE at spawning new archetypes. This would be a lot simpler if only Blizzard made fairly regular balance patches, which would allow to just give rogue new stuff and then patch it until it's in a good state ( Whether by nerfing because it made rogue too good or buffing because it didn't achieve enough ), but, well...
Plus, f*ck no I'm not giving any rogue card to Blizzard after they already butchered Blade Flurry. Let Blizzard prove they can make something that isn't 3 years old and mostly only okay-ish ( Especially in ranked play meta ) out of Rogue before I'm fine with them nerfing the class ( Plus, a classic card nerf is a nerf forever, while it can be argued that quite a lot of miracle enablers are rotating out next year ).
Also saying rogue has good tempo is a stretch if you want to consider control decks and the likes, because tempo cards are for the most part dependent on the combo keyword, but that keyword forces you to play several cards a turn. That doesn't sound controllish to me, midrange at most, and even that. Rogue has good tempo as long as it builds a tempo deck, nothing else. I always think twice about putting "sap" in a control deck ( Because, before you ask, I have tried VERY hard to make control rogue work ), no matter how good for tempo the card is, because delaying usually doesn't help you ; Your game plan dictates you WILL have to deal with that threat, even if it's one turn later.
Small balance patches regularly doesnt sound too bad but it isnt what needs to be done in this case. They need to rework the basic/classic set because thats the biggest part in which you are designing future content. You cant be changing it often as well because it affects everything build around it.
Small regular patches also feel like you have your dad taking care of you. It detaches a big part of the game which is "teching" ur deck. Glaring issues on the other side should be adressed. Fine line whats glaring issue and what not. Blizzard might already be doing this when necessary. Hard to judge when we dont have game statistics.
Overall while small regular tweaks cn be good in theory, balancing everything correctly in short periods of time can be hard and has many other issues popping up as well.
Small balance patches regularly doesnt sound too bad but it isnt what needs to be done in this case. They need to rework the basic/classic set because thats the biggest part in which you are designing future content. You cant be changing it often as well because it affects everything build around it.
Small regular patches also feel like you have your dad taking care of you. It detaches a big part of the game which is "teching" ur deck. Glaring issues on the other side should be adressed. Fine line whats glaring issue and what not. Blizzard might already be doing this when necessary. Hard to judge when we dont have game statistics.
Overall while small regular tweaks cn be good in theory, balancing everything correctly in short periods of time can be hard and has many other issues popping up as well.
I think you should try playing a control rogue to see that the classic cards aren't all that problematic if your intent is to play an archetype that isn't tempo/miracle. They enable tempo and miracle, that is more than obvious, but in a way that doesn't work so well out of these decks.
If your plan is to play a value game, then playing several cards a turn will lead you to either have no cards left or have to play drawing effects, which will mostly negate your tempo gains. And that's IF you get your combos to trigger, because while a 4 damage Eviscerate is powerful, a 2 damage one is simply a waste, and if you're playing a slightly highly curved deck, then you might not always have the mana to spare to play your threats.
In miracle decks, both these weaknesses are eliminated by the low cost of all cards ( To always trigger combo ) and the Auctioneers ( who will have them cycle and eliminate the draw problem ), but take both these out ( Which is mostly necessary to playing anything but miracle and maybe a few OTK, but these then become so weak to aggro you can't ladder with them ) and you'll quickly see the value of these cards plummel.
If you want an example of Rogue control deck that I made, I have one in my profile I believe. It's a dragon deck, so, admittedly, it doesn't leave much room for the rest, but do notice how it doesn't have sap and only 2 combo cards ( Keep in mind it was done in very early TGT ), and I think that I did end up adding another healbot instead of a backstab. You can also read the description to know what I identified as weaknesses.
It's gimmicky ( Control rogue is in itself gimmicky TBH ), but that is what worked the best as a dragon rogue deck if not control rogue in my opinion. Nowadays the only way to get controllish is basically Reno as you'll otherwise simply get destroyed by SMORcing, and I don't mean aggro decks, but just about anybody who can get a lead on you will simply SMORc you down because they know for a fact you can't punish them for it with your AOE and healing gone.
Small balance patches regularly doesnt sound too bad but it isnt what needs to be done in this case. They need to rework the basic/classic set because thats the biggest part in which you are designing future content. You cant be changing it often as well because it affects everything build around it.
Small regular patches also feel like you have your dad taking care of you. It detaches a big part of the game which is "teching" ur deck. Glaring issues on the other side should be adressed. Fine line whats glaring issue and what not. Blizzard might already be doing this when necessary. Hard to judge when we dont have game statistics.
Overall while small regular tweaks cn be good in theory, balancing everything correctly in short periods of time can be hard and has many other issues popping up as well.
I think you should try playing a control rogue to see that the classic cards aren't all that problematic if your intent is to play an archetype that isn't tempo/miracle. They enable tempo and miracle, that is more than obvious, but in a way that doesn't work so well out of these decks.
If your plan is to play a value game, then playing several cards a turn will lead you to either have no cards left or have to play drawing effects, which will mostly negate your tempo gains. And that's IF you get your combos to trigger, because while a 4 damage Eviscerate is powerful, a 2 damage one is simply a waste, and if you're playing a slightly highly curved deck, then you might not always have the mana to spare to play your threats.
In miracle decks, both these weaknesses are eliminated by the low cost of all cards ( To always trigger combo ) and the Auctioneers ( who will have them cycle and eliminate the draw problem ), but take both these out ( Which is mostly necessary to playing anything but miracle and maybe a few OTK, but these then become so weak to aggro you can't ladder with them ) and you'll quickly see the value of these cards plummel.
If you want an example of Rogue control deck that I made, I have one in my profile I believe. It's a dragon deck, so, admittedly, it doesn't leave much room for the rest, but do notice how it doesn't have sap and only 2 combo cards ( Keep in mind it was done in very early TGT ), and I think that I did end up adding another healbot instead of a backstab. You can also read the description to know what I identified as weaknesses.
It's gimmicky ( Control rogue is in itself gimmicky TBH ), but that is what worked the best as a dragon rogue deck if not control rogue in my opinion. Nowadays the only way to get controllish is basically Reno as you'll otherwise simply get destroyed by SMORcing, and I don't mean aggro decks, but just about anybody who can get a lead on you will simply SMORc you down because they know for a fact you can't punish them for it with your AOE and healing gone.
I honestly dont know how to answer. I feel we are on the wrong page. You have an obsession with control rogue and rogue in general and keep telling me its problems and how it currently doesnt work. This has nothing to do with what im saying and i tried in all the replies to keep up.
The OP complained that rogue is strong and i replied that its Gadgetzan Auctioneer with all those cheap tempo spells thats completely unfun to play against. I then proposed a rework on rogue classic/basic set to breath new room for design space in the monotonous rogue which obviously has issues, taking care of miracle and adding new possibilities for the future, 2 problems solved in 1 go.
You said the game needs regular patches to be fixed. I dont agree but what you said was pretty clear and its what i have been looking for from the start as an answer. Not endlessly analyzing why rogue has problems. Your last post contributed nothing in the conversation imo. I appreciate the time and effort you undeniably put in ur replys.
Small balance patches regularly doesnt sound too bad but it isnt what needs to be done in this case. They need to rework the basic/classic set because thats the biggest part in which you are designing future content. You cant be changing it often as well because it affects everything build around it.
Small regular patches also feel like you have your dad taking care of you. It detaches a big part of the game which is "teching" ur deck. Glaring issues on the other side should be adressed. Fine line whats glaring issue and what not. Blizzard might already be doing this when necessary. Hard to judge when we dont have game statistics.
Overall while small regular tweaks cn be good in theory, balancing everything correctly in short periods of time can be hard and has many other issues popping up as well.
I think you should try playing a control rogue to see that the classic cards aren't all that problematic if your intent is to play an archetype that isn't tempo/miracle. They enable tempo and miracle, that is more than obvious, but in a way that doesn't work so well out of these decks.
If your plan is to play a value game, then playing several cards a turn will lead you to either have no cards left or have to play drawing effects, which will mostly negate your tempo gains. And that's IF you get your combos to trigger, because while a 4 damage Eviscerate is powerful, a 2 damage one is simply a waste, and if you're playing a slightly highly curved deck, then you might not always have the mana to spare to play your threats.
In miracle decks, both these weaknesses are eliminated by the low cost of all cards ( To always trigger combo ) and the Auctioneers ( who will have them cycle and eliminate the draw problem ), but take both these out ( Which is mostly necessary to playing anything but miracle and maybe a few OTK, but these then become so weak to aggro you can't ladder with them ) and you'll quickly see the value of these cards plummel.
If you want an example of Rogue control deck that I made, I have one in my profile I believe. It's a dragon deck, so, admittedly, it doesn't leave much room for the rest, but do notice how it doesn't have sap and only 2 combo cards ( Keep in mind it was done in very early TGT ), and I think that I did end up adding another healbot instead of a backstab. You can also read the description to know what I identified as weaknesses.
It's gimmicky ( Control rogue is in itself gimmicky TBH ), but that is what worked the best as a dragon rogue deck if not control rogue in my opinion. Nowadays the only way to get controllish is basically Reno as you'll otherwise simply get destroyed by SMORcing, and I don't mean aggro decks, but just about anybody who can get a lead on you will simply SMORc you down because they know for a fact you can't punish them for it with your AOE and healing gone.
I honestly dont know how to answer. I feel we are on the wrong page. You have an obsession with control rogue and rogue in general and keep telling me its problems and how it currently doesnt work. This has nothing to do with what im saying and i tried in all the replies to keep up.
The OP complained that rogue is strong and i replied that its Gadgetzan Auctioneer with all those cheap tempo spells thats completely unfun to play against. I then proposed a rework on rogue classic/basic set to breath new room for design space in the monotonous rogue which obviously has issues, taking care of miracle and adding new possibilities for the future, 2 problems solved in 1 go.
You said the game needs regular patches to be fixed. I dont agree but what you said was pretty clear and its what i have been looking for from the start as an answer. Not endlessly analyzing why rogue has problems. Your last post contributed nothing in the conversation imo. I appreciate the time and effort you undeniably put in ur replys.
Then I'll try to make my point clearer :
You don't need to nerf any rogue card to add diversity, you only need to give it a very few enablers ( That mostly wouldn't fit in miracle and thus wouldn't buff it in any way ) for other kinds of decks.
Rogue isn't solely playing miracle because miracle is over the top ( Looking at winrates, it simply isn't by any stretch of the imagination ), it's playing miracle because the rest is pure suicide given the lack of some precise cards ( AOE and heal ), and your rework won't change that unless it involves patching these weaknesses, which would kind of beg the question of why you didn't just do that without utterly killing the class flavour and fantasy.
As to being unfun, in a meta polluted with aggro and zoo...I find it hard to believe that's the worst offender, but hey, why not.
However I find backpedalling on the entire rogue design ( Combo is litterally its keyword ) is simply...Bad ? I mean are you seriously gonna tell all the people who got drawn into the game by a class "Go home, that archetype will stop existing in this game you've invested a lot of effort into" ; And given Blizzard refused nerfing utterly broken cards solely because it would feel bad for people who owned them, just face it, it won't happen. I mean, I got golden rogue, and I would probably just quit the game if rogue expelled all its combo, fast paced elements.
Also, as I said, I do think that should miracle rogue not receive any goodies in the next few expansions, it will quickly die out ( At least from the meta ) with LOE and WOTOG rotating out.
You don't need to nerf any rogue card to add diversity, you only need to give it a very few enablers ( That mostly wouldn't fit in miracle and thus wouldn't buff it in any way ) for other kinds of decks.
Rogue isn't solely playing miracle because miracle is over the top ( Looking at winrates, it simply isn't by any stretch of the imagination ), it's playing miracle because the rest is pure suicide given the lack of some precise cards ( AOE and heal ), and your rework won't change that unless it involves patching these weaknesses, which would kind of beg the question of why you didn't just do that without utterly killing the class flavour and fantasy.
As to being unfun, in a meta polluted with aggro and zoo...I find it hard to believe that's the worst offender, but hey, why not.
However I find backpedalling on the entire rogue design ( Combo is litterally its keyword ) is simply...Bad ? I mean are you seriously gonna tell all the people who got drawn into the game by a class "Go home, that archetype will stop existing in this game you've invested a lot of effort into" ; And given Blizzard refused nerfing utterly broken cards solely because it would feel bad for people who owned them, just face it, it won't happen. I mean, I got golden rogue, and I would probably just quit the game if rogue expelled all its combo, fast paced elements.
Also, as I said, I do think that should miracle rogue not receive any goodies in the next few expansions, it will quickly die out ( At least from the meta ) with LOE and WOTOG rotating out.
Well yea the rework i had in mind was in a healthy way. Im not sure if that healthy way involves solely nerfing some cards or buffing others as well. You got to keep in mind future card releases play a big role when you decide what cards to buff or nerf. [card]Master of Disguise{/card] is a fine example of that. So if something looks like utter nerf to you it might be for the best in the long run, its hard to judge if you cant see the whole project. I dont think the combo keyword needs to be adressed or the class fantasy. Not sure how you made all those assumptions, i merely said rework, maybe it was confusing and should have said reevaluate the cards :S
While they can add some strong cards that synergise well with each other as you said and are not miracle specific its just patching the problem for now not solving it. Im sure you realise that. With the rotations you will have the same problem all over again.
I dont want miracle to disappear, i want for miracle to use approximately half of the starter set of cards or so at any given time, with each expansion adding something to it making interesting, evolving. Thats good design. Also i dont want rogue to have his strengths and weaknesses so focused in the starter set. I think the starter set that stays no matter the rotations should be a bit more flexible and provide options for a lot of ideas rather than being focused in something.
I find miracle annoying to play against because i cant do anything to stop it when it starts rolling. All the zoo/aggro decks are mindless and annoying but i have the option to tech against them. With miracle the options i have to counter it are few and not overly effective. Playing aggro decks isnt considered teching btw.
Lastly, i dont know why you think miracle will die out if loe and wog rotate. It uses so few of those cards it wont be affected much. If you check the decklists of almost every other good tiered deck it shows that it would be affected much much much more than miracle. Every current good deck archetype would die out if it didnt get anything new supportingit and wog+loe rotating xcept probably miracle. Yeap. just take a look at the decklists.
You don't need to nerf any rogue card to add diversity, you only need to give it a very few enablers ( That mostly wouldn't fit in miracle and thus wouldn't buff it in any way ) for other kinds of decks.
Rogue isn't solely playing miracle because miracle is over the top ( Looking at winrates, it simply isn't by any stretch of the imagination ), it's playing miracle because the rest is pure suicide given the lack of some precise cards ( AOE and heal ), and your rework won't change that unless it involves patching these weaknesses, which would kind of beg the question of why you didn't just do that without utterly killing the class flavour and fantasy.
As to being unfun, in a meta polluted with aggro and zoo...I find it hard to believe that's the worst offender, but hey, why not.
However I find backpedalling on the entire rogue design ( Combo is litterally its keyword ) is simply...Bad ? I mean are you seriously gonna tell all the people who got drawn into the game by a class "Go home, that archetype will stop existing in this game you've invested a lot of effort into" ; And given Blizzard refused nerfing utterly broken cards solely because it would feel bad for people who owned them, just face it, it won't happen. I mean, I got golden rogue, and I would probably just quit the game if rogue expelled all its combo, fast paced elements.
Also, as I said, I do think that should miracle rogue not receive any goodies in the next few expansions, it will quickly die out ( At least from the meta ) with LOE and WOTOG rotating out.
Well yea the rework i had in mind was in a healthy way. Im not sure if that healthy way involves solely nerfing some cards or buffing others as well. You got to keep in mind future card releases play a big role when you decide what cards to buff or nerf. [card]Master of Disguise{/card] is a fine example of that. So if something looks like utter nerf to you it might be for the best in the long run, its hard to judge if you cant see the whole project. I dont think the combo keyword needs to be adressed or the class fantasy. Not sure how you made all those assumptions, i merely said rework, maybe it was confusing and should have said reevaluate the cards :S
While they can add some strong cards that synergise well with each other as you said and are not miracle specific its just patching the problem for now not solving it. Im sure you realise that. With the rotations you will have the same problem all over again.
I dont want miracle to disappear, i want for miracle to use approximately half of the starter set of cards or so at any given time, with each expansion adding something to it making interesting, evolving. Thats good design. Also i dont want rogue to have his strengths and weaknesses so focused in the starter set. I think the starter set that stays no matter the rotations should be a bit more flexible and provide options for a lot of ideas rather than being focused in something.
I find miracle annoying to play against because i cant do anything to stop it when it starts rolling. All the zoo/aggro decks are mindless and annoying but i have the option to tech against them. With miracle the options i have to counter it are few and not overly effective. Playing aggro decks isnt considered teching btw.
Lastly, i dont know why you think miracle will die out if loe and wog rotate. It uses so few of those cards it wont be affected much. If you check the decklists of almost every other good tiered deck it shows that it would be affected much much much more than miracle. Every current good deck archetype would die out if it didnt get anything new supportingit and wog+loe rotating xcept probably miracle. Yeap. just take a look at the decklists.
I don't really see how you could nerf almost any one rogue card without making it sub par by a large margin. The entirety of them is simply par for its mana cost, in an almost purely mathematical way. Nerfing them is simply throwing them into unviability.
2 mana Arcane Explosion + 1 mana card draw = Fan of Knives
Eviscerate / Cold Blood = Dark Bomb / Blessing of Might with -1 damage when not using combo, +1 when using it.
Prep = Innervate with 1 more mana gain because you can only use it with spells and can't split the mana "gain"
Vanilla 3 drop - 1 stat + combo 1 mana spell = SI:7 . Darkshire Apothecary says Hi by being a Vanilla 4 drop with a flat 1 mana spell attached.
Deadly Poison = 3 mana Fiery War Axe nowadays, really.
0 mana spell + 1 mana card draw + 1 mana for no reason = Shiv.
Now you might just have realized some of these cards aren't actually good, yet are in miracle rogue. That's just proof the cards themselves aren't the problem, the synergy is.
If anything it's Auctioneer that needs a rework. This thing has never been used for anything else than drawing half your deck in a turn ( And not only by Rogue, recently ), unlike almost any other draw engine that draws 2 cards and then simply stops for the turn ( Except for rare cases like Northshire Cleric and Healing Circle shenanigans ).
Nerfing rogue spells ( Or other cards ) will pull rogue down along with miracle, so that's not really pushing for diversity. But it'd be easier if you just said what rogue cards would in your opinion deserve a reevaluation.
As to rogue being patched only being a temporary solution...Blizzard did say some cards may enter the classic set IIRC. Plus, actually having vital cards rotate out and coming up with a new replacements doesn't look like that bad of a solution TBH ; Granted, they couldn't do that forever, but it would give some time to have the right one go Classic and all, and for one would really shake things up, which is kinda what you wanted.
I don't really see how you could nerf almost any one rogue card without making it sub par by a large margin. The entirety of them is simply par for its mana cost, in an almost purely mathematical way. Nerfing them is simply throwing them into unviability.
2 mana Arcane Explosion + 1 mana card draw = Fan of Knives
Eviscerate / Cold Blood = Dark Bomb / Blessing of Might with -1 damage when not using combo, +1 when using it.
Prep = Innervate with 1 more mana gain because you can only use it with spells and can't split the mana "gain"
Vanilla 3 drop - 1 stat + combo 1 mana spell = SI:7 . Darkshire Apothecary says Hi by being a Vanilla 4 drop with a flat 1 mana spell attached.
Deadly Poison = 3 mana Fiery War Axe nowadays, really.
0 mana spell + 1 mana card draw + 1 mana for no reason = Shiv.
Now you might just have realized some of these cards aren't actually good, yet are in miracle rogue. That's just proof the cards themselves aren't the problem, the synergy is.
If anything it's Auctioneer that needs a rework. This thing has never been used for anything else than drawing half your deck in a turn ( And not only by Rogue, recently ), unlike almost any other draw engine that draws 2 cards and then simply stops for the turn ( Except for rare cases like Northshire Cleric and Healing Circle shenanigans ).
Nerfing rogue spells ( Or other cards ) will pull rogue down along with miracle, so that's not really pushing for diversity. But it'd be easier if you just said what rogue cards would in your opinion deserve a reevaluation.
As to rogue being patched only being a temporary solution...Blizzard did say some cards may enter the classic set IIRC. Plus, actually having vital cards rotate out and coming up with a new replacements doesn't look like that bad of a solution TBH ; Granted, they couldn't do that forever, but it would give some time to have the right one go Classic and all, and for one would really shake things up, which is kinda what you wanted.
Im not saying every card needs a nerf. Im saying revaluate all cards and act accordingly. But as you said its the synergy indeed that is the culprit thats why i said the starter set needs to be more flexible and less focused/synergistic.
I dont know how blizzard evaluates card draw or different mechanics in each class but i think card draw is more like 1.5 mana. A common mistake people do when they break down cards and evaluate the costs is that they use flat numbers not percentages. Take for example a 0.5 power increase in a 3 mana card making a 3.5 card if you break down its stats and an 8 mana card that its strength becomes 8.5, the increase in the first case is 16% and in the second one 6%. Small benefits in early game cards can be amazing and add up pretty fast.
On top of my head my aproach wouId be to change Gadgetzan Auctioneer to battlecry with a reduced mana cost maybe to 5 and it would read: draw cards from spells this turn only. I would increase Fan of Knives 4 mana. SI:7 Agent reduce -1 stat. Defias Ringleader token to 2/2 Backstab 1 mana 3 dmg. Its rly hard to have an opinion without any kind of statistics and any knowledge of future plans.
I didnt know they had in mind adding cards to the classic. Maybe they can remove others as well instead of hitting their heads in the wall trying to figure out a solution. sounds very good idea.
I don't really see how you could nerf almost any one rogue card without making it sub par by a large margin. The entirety of them is simply par for its mana cost, in an almost purely mathematical way. Nerfing them is simply throwing them into unviability.
2 mana Arcane Explosion + 1 mana card draw = Fan of Knives
Eviscerate / Cold Blood = Dark Bomb / Blessing of Might with -1 damage when not using combo, +1 when using it.
Prep = Innervate with 1 more mana gain because you can only use it with spells and can't split the mana "gain"
Vanilla 3 drop - 1 stat + combo 1 mana spell = SI:7 . Darkshire Apothecary says Hi by being a Vanilla 4 drop with a flat 1 mana spell attached.
Deadly Poison = 3 mana Fiery War Axe nowadays, really.
0 mana spell + 1 mana card draw + 1 mana for no reason = Shiv.
Now you might just have realized some of these cards aren't actually good, yet are in miracle rogue. That's just proof the cards themselves aren't the problem, the synergy is.
If anything it's Auctioneer that needs a rework. This thing has never been used for anything else than drawing half your deck in a turn ( And not only by Rogue, recently ), unlike almost any other draw engine that draws 2 cards and then simply stops for the turn ( Except for rare cases like Northshire Cleric and Healing Circle shenanigans ).
Nerfing rogue spells ( Or other cards ) will pull rogue down along with miracle, so that's not really pushing for diversity. But it'd be easier if you just said what rogue cards would in your opinion deserve a reevaluation.
As to rogue being patched only being a temporary solution...Blizzard did say some cards may enter the classic set IIRC. Plus, actually having vital cards rotate out and coming up with a new replacements doesn't look like that bad of a solution TBH ; Granted, they couldn't do that forever, but it would give some time to have the right one go Classic and all, and for one would really shake things up, which is kinda what you wanted.
Im not saying every card needs a nerf. Im saying revaluate all cards and act accordingly. But as you said its the synergy indeed that is the culprit thats why i said the starter set needs to be more flexible and less focused/synergistic.
I dont know how blizzard evaluates card draw or different mechanics in each class but i think card draw is more like 1.5 mana. A common mistake people do when they break down cards and evaluate the costs is that they use flat numbers not percentages. Take for example a 0.5 power increase in a 3 mana card making a 3.5 card if you break down its stats and an 8 mana card that its strength becomes 8.5, the increase in the first case is 16% and in the second one 6%. Small benefits in early game cards can be amazing and add up pretty fast.
On top of my head my aproach wouId be to change Gadgetzan Auctioneer to battlecry with a reduced mana cost maybe to 5 and it would read: draw cards from spells this turn only. I would increase Fan of Knives 4 mana. SI:7 Agent reduce -1 stat. Defias Ringleader token to 2/2 Backstab 1 mana 3 dmg. Its rly hard to have an opinion without any kind of statistics and any knowledge of future plans.
I didnt know they had in mind adding cards to the classic. Maybe they can remove others as well instead of hitting their heads in the wall trying to figure out a solution. sounds very good idea.
Drawing a card, when put on an otherwise random card, is worth 1 mana, that's how Blizzard evaluated it, really.
Ogre Magi -> Azure Drake ( Keep in mind the dragon tag didn't exist when these were made )
Consecration -> Fan of Knives
Ancient of Lore sort of followed that logic, and was pretty much broken.
Low cost cards are an exception ( Novice Engineer, Shiv, Loot hoarder because it's a deathrattle ) because you don't want aggro decks to cycle, else they'll just endlessly play stuff and they'll never run out of steam because their hand size basically stays constant. Even then some still follow the "+1 mana" logic and are mostly, rightfully so, considered very powerful, e.g Power word : Shield, Mortal Coil, Thalnos...
The 1.5 number is from Arcane Intellect alone, and don't forget Mage has freeze mage and has proved numerous times to be able to go very wild on the aggressive side of things, which would quickly make you reconsider giving them cheap draw.
That is on the most viable side of things, that is ; Sprint and Laying on Hands share similar if not higher costs per card, which further points at that 1.5 cost not being widespread as you can somewhat claim 1.5 to round down to 1 in my previous examples, but doing so with Sprint's 1.75 - which can be argued to be higher because of Prep, granted - and LoH's 1.66 is tougher, especially when considering that that generous round-down would be mostly unjustified on the most powerful examples like Azure Drake, the old Ancient of Lore or Power Word shield.
I'm not the one making the mistake of reasonning in terms of flat numbers and not percentage, Blizzard is, if anything.
The Gadgetzan Auctioneer nerf looks very good, really, but the rest...
4 mana Fan of Knives is a dead card. Compare it with Hammer of Wrath which shares the 2 mana overcost to draw a card, but has an auto-include effect ( Pretty much no 2 mana 3 damage card in the game isn't an auto include ) unlike Fan of Knives which is an Arcane Explosion, an utterly unplayed card.
Si:7 agent would also probably go unplayed with 1 less stat ( If nothing else is given in return ). Versus Flame Juggler, you'd litterally be paying 1 full mana for 1 damage and deciding where it lands, on a combo card. Do remember rogue has a massive discrepency between going first or second ( The winrate is nearly cut in half when going first IIRC ), and SI:7 triggering combo or not is most likely one of the biggest reasons for this, so don't underestimate the cost of Combo. SI:7 is a powerful card but this would most likely be overkill, so you'd probably at least have to make it deal 1 damage as an actual battlecry and have the combo increase that to 2 to compensate, and I'm not even sure that'd make it considering Undercity Valiant doesn't really work while being quite similar.
Defias Ringleader...I don't know. This card used to be more powerful ( 2/3+2/1 instead of 2/2+2/2, which can be argued to be worse because you would be able to ping neither of them on turn 2 ), and was pknown to pretty much force concedes on turn 2. Buffing it looks quite dangerous, though it hasn't been a problem for long, so maybe.
Backstab...Might work, but do consider Backstab is a prime combo activator because it's free, so this can have repercusions beyond the simple damage dilemma.
Drawing a card, when put on an otherwise random card, is worth 1 mana, that's how Blizzard evaluated it, really.
Ogre Magi -> Azure Drake ( Keep in mind the dragon tag didn't exist when these were made )
Consecration -> Fan of Knives
Ancient of Lore sort of followed that logic, and was pretty much broken.
Low cost cards are an exception ( Novice Engineer, Shiv, Loot hoarder because it's a deathrattle ) because you don't want aggro decks to cycle, else they'll just endlessly play stuff and they'll never run out of steam because their hand size basically stays constant. Even then some still follow the "+1 mana" logic and are mostly, rightfully so, considered very powerful, e.g Power word : Shield, Mortal Coil, Thalnos...
The 1.5 number is from Arcane Intellect alone, and don't forget Mage has freeze mage and has proved numerous times to be able to go very wild on the aggressive side of things, which would quickly make you reconsider giving them cheap draw.
That is on the most viable side of things, that is ; Sprint and Laying on Hands share similar if not higher costs per card, which further points at that 1.5 cost not being widespread as you can somewhat claim 1.5 to round down to 1 in my previous examples, but doing so with Sprint's 1.75 - which can be argued to be higher because of Prep, granted - and LoH's 1.66 is tougher, especially when considering that that generous round-down would be mostly unjustified on the most powerful examples like Azure Drake, the old Ancient of Lore or Power Word shield.
I'm not the one making the mistake of reasonning in terms of flat numbers and not percentage, Blizzard is, if anything.
The Gadgetzan Auctioneer nerf looks very good, really, but the rest...
4 mana Fan of Knives is a dead card. Compare it with Hammer of Wrath which shares the 2 mana overcost to draw a card, but has an auto-include effect ( Pretty much no 2 mana 3 damage card in the game isn't an auto include ) unlike Fan of Knives which is an Arcane Explosion, an utterly unplayed card.
Si:7 agent would also probably go unplayed with 1 less stat ( If nothing else is given in return ). Versus Flame Juggler, you'd litterally be paying 1 full mana for 1 damage and deciding where it lands, on a combo card. Do remember rogue has a massive discrepency between going first or second ( The winrate is nearly cut in half when going first IIRC ), and SI:7 triggering combo or not is most likely one of the biggest reasons for this, so don't underestimate the cost of Combo. SI:7 is a powerful card but this would most likely be overkill, so you'd probably at least have to make it deal 1 damage as an actual battlecry and have the combo increase that to 2 to compensate, and I'm not even sure that'd make it considering Undercity Valiant doesn't really work while being quite similar.
Defias Ringleader...I don't know. This card used to be more powerful ( 2/3+2/1 instead of 2/2+2/2, which can be argued to be worse because you would be able to ping neither of them on turn 2 ), and was pknown to pretty much force concedes on turn 2. Buffing it looks quite dangerous, though it hasn't been a problem for long, so maybe.
Backstab...Might work, but do consider Backstab is a prime combo activator because it's free, so this can have repercusions beyond the simple damage dilemma.
Im not sure Blizzard evaluated like that, there are other cards with different evaluations in them.
I took a quick look on all the draw cards and i have to say that from those cards that you can easily break down and dont have double edge added costs or effects that are hard to evaluate and provide immediate card draw, rougly, every card that has costed below 1,4 the card draw effect seems strong. Anything above 1,5 seems to not be doing that well. With special exceptions of course because other factors come in when you decide what options you have to add in ur deck. You can judge by urself. For me the healthy, honest number is around 1,5 and i base all my evaluations around it.
Fan of Knives that has the card draw costed as rougly 1 mana is too strong imo. With my evaluation Fan of Knives is 3,6-3,7 mana making it about 20% stronger than what it should be. 2 mana the aoe + 1,5 card draw + 0,1 flexibility of aoe plus draw + 0,05-1 class synergy (cheap spells, plethora or early removal). Similar power level of old Ancient of Lore.
SI:7 Agent change was a bit harsh and Defias Ringleader was bad now that i looked at it again but was mainly out of frustation because i wanted some viable 1-2 mana creature drops for rogue.
Backstab change was for synergy issues. Already rogue has another 0 mana spell that is efficient. It cn even free design space for future 0 card release. having 2 viable 0 cost spells in basic set seems too focused imo. Then again the combo activator argument makes sense.
Overall i had in mind to balance the cards around themselves and maybe future possibilities, not as stand alone. I think thats mostly the correct way.
The thing about rouge is that it is a harder class to play, you cannot just pick up a top tier list and get top tier results.. other classes like shaman, pick up a list and BAM you can get good enough wins without even experiencing the deck.
WARRIORRRSSSSSSSSSSS, is a bit OPwith Shaman but i don´t think they need a nerf, i just hate them with all my soul(Mostly the C thun and Control version) Freeze Mage Player :V
Drawing a card, when put on an otherwise random card, is worth 1 mana, that's how Blizzard evaluated it, really.
Ogre Magi -> Azure Drake ( Keep in mind the dragon tag didn't exist when these were made )
Consecration -> Fan of Knives
Ancient of Lore sort of followed that logic, and was pretty much broken.
Low cost cards are an exception ( Novice Engineer, Shiv, Loot hoarder because it's a deathrattle ) because you don't want aggro decks to cycle, else they'll just endlessly play stuff and they'll never run out of steam because their hand size basically stays constant. Even then some still follow the "+1 mana" logic and are mostly, rightfully so, considered very powerful, e.g Power word : Shield, Mortal Coil, Thalnos...
The 1.5 number is from Arcane Intellect alone, and don't forget Mage has freeze mage and has proved numerous times to be able to go very wild on the aggressive side of things, which would quickly make you reconsider giving them cheap draw.
That is on the most viable side of things, that is ; Sprint and Laying on Hands share similar if not higher costs per card, which further points at that 1.5 cost not being widespread as you can somewhat claim 1.5 to round down to 1 in my previous examples, but doing so with Sprint's 1.75 - which can be argued to be higher because of Prep, granted - and LoH's 1.66 is tougher, especially when considering that that generous round-down would be mostly unjustified on the most powerful examples like Azure Drake, the old Ancient of Lore or Power Word shield.
I'm not the one making the mistake of reasonning in terms of flat numbers and not percentage, Blizzard is, if anything.
The Gadgetzan Auctioneer nerf looks very good, really, but the rest...
4 mana Fan of Knives is a dead card. Compare it with Hammer of Wrath which shares the 2 mana overcost to draw a card, but has an auto-include effect ( Pretty much no 2 mana 3 damage card in the game isn't an auto include ) unlike Fan of Knives which is an Arcane Explosion, an utterly unplayed card.
Si:7 agent would also probably go unplayed with 1 less stat ( If nothing else is given in return ). Versus Flame Juggler, you'd litterally be paying 1 full mana for 1 damage and deciding where it lands, on a combo card. Do remember rogue has a massive discrepency between going first or second ( The winrate is nearly cut in half when going first IIRC ), and SI:7 triggering combo or not is most likely one of the biggest reasons for this, so don't underestimate the cost of Combo. SI:7 is a powerful card but this would most likely be overkill, so you'd probably at least have to make it deal 1 damage as an actual battlecry and have the combo increase that to 2 to compensate, and I'm not even sure that'd make it considering Undercity Valiant doesn't really work while being quite similar.
Defias Ringleader...I don't know. This card used to be more powerful ( 2/3+2/1 instead of 2/2+2/2, which can be argued to be worse because you would be able to ping neither of them on turn 2 ), and was pknown to pretty much force concedes on turn 2. Buffing it looks quite dangerous, though it hasn't been a problem for long, so maybe.
Backstab...Might work, but do consider Backstab is a prime combo activator because it's free, so this can have repercusions beyond the simple damage dilemma.
Im not sure Blizzard evaluated like that, there are other cards with different evaluations in them.
I took a quick look on all the draw cards and i have to say that from those cards that you can easily break down and dont have double edge added costs or effects that are hard to evaluate and provide immediate card draw, rougly, every card that has costed below 1,4 the card draw effect seems strong. Anything above 1,5 seems to not be doing that well. With special exceptions of course because other factors come in when you decide what options you have to add in ur deck. You can judge by urself. For me the healthy, honest number is around 1,5 and i base all my evaluations around it.
Fan of Knives that has the card draw costed as rougly 1 mana is too strong imo. With my evaluation Fan of Knives is 3,6-3,7 mana making it about 20% stronger than what it should be. 2 mana the aoe + 1,5 card draw + 0,1 flexibility of aoe plus draw + 0,05-1 class synergy (cheap spells, plethora or early removal). Similar power level of old Ancient of Lore.
SI:7 Agent change was a bit harsh and Defias Ringleader was bad now that i looked at it again but was mainly out of frustation because i wanted some viable 1-2 mana creature drops for rogue.
Backstab change was for synergy issues. Already rogue has another 0 mana spell that is efficient. It cn even free design space for future 0 card release. having 2 viable 0 cost spells in basic set seems too focused imo. Then again the combo activator argument makes sense.
Overall i had in mind to balance the cards around themselves and maybe future possibilities, not as stand alone. I think thats mostly the correct way.
I am fine with it being a better assassinate that doesn't trigger deathrattle for 6 mana. But it is f***ing annoying to see the priest play your grommash, rag or sylvannas... it is just not fun.. cuz priest always makes u go to fatigue.. I WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH THE CARD IF IT JUST REMOVED THE CARD FROM PLAY INSTEAD OF PLAYING IT IN PRIEST'S DECK.
The thing about rouge is that it is a harder class to play, you cannot just pick up a top tier list and get top tier results..
other classes like shaman, pick up a list and BAM you can get good enough wins without even experiencing the deck.
Stealing your girl one combo at a time
why does this thread still exist we have answered the question that rogue isn't op and has a high skill ceiling
WARRIORRRSSSSSSSSSSS, is a bit OPwith Shaman but i don´t think they need a nerf, i just hate them with all my soul(Mostly the C thun and Control version) Freeze Mage Player :V
But its so fking anoying
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/28947-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-steam-mega-salty
If you're happy and you know it... well that's good :)