I'm sure we're all getting pretty tired of the "Nerf Combo X/Y" threads, and this thread isn't suggesting that any cards be nerfed, but simply pointing out what I feel is the biggest problem with the current Combos that exist in HS.
Miracle Rogue: Everyone screams "Nerf Leeroy", while the players with more foresight tend to say that the problem doesn't lie with Leeroy, as it can be replaced with little effect, but in the enablers like Gadgetzan, Preparation, etc. I think that Miracle is fine honestly, I see the importance of combo decks and understand that this is in fact a dedicated combo deck, they spend the whole game trying to cycle their deck into the ideal hand, and then win. Seems legit.
Druid: I actually tend to think that Savage Roar/Force of Nature is worse for the game than anything Miracle Rogue does. It's very often an OTK that is COMPLETELY out of nowhere. Whereas Miracle spends the whole match cycling for a combo hand, the Druid Player isn't even remotely reliant on this combo, yet can suddenly draw into an "I win" button. Still, I don't think that this is inherently broken.
The problem I have with these combos, and the problem most people seem to have, is that there is little to no way to interact with these combos. In a game like MTG, I could Force of Will your Leeroy, and almost assuredly win the game. Obviously HS has no such mechanic, and the merits of that can be argued all day. What HS does have however, is secrets. 1/3 of the classes in HS have secrets that directly answer a Miracle Leeroy for example. Explosive Trap, Snipe, Freezing Trap, Noble Sacrifice, Vaporize, even Misdirection in many cases are hard counters to Leeroy.
The problem with this is the 2 classes that run these non-interactive combos (Rogue, Druid), are also the 2 classes that have a Hero Power that allows them to attack. This means they have a reliable way to check for traps every turn, effectively making Explosive Trap, Noble Sacrifice, and Misdirection useless. In the case of Rogue, they can hero power up and still have enough Mana for an OTK the same turn.
I'm not really advocating any sort of nerf, I honestly don't think either of these decks are THAT much of a problem, but if there was some sort of a nerf, I think it makes more sense to nerf their "counter-counter" than to nerf their cards, that would hinder other decks.
In fact, rather than any sort of nerf, I think it would be better to change the text of all secrets to read "when a minion attacks your hero." This change would hardly be relevant in most matchups, yet make a world of difference as far as answering combo.
I like the secrets idea - however, Misdirection and Eye for an Eye could be potentially broken then.
Still, I clicked this thread because i read WISP and OP in the same sentence. I was very disappointed!!
Even if the change wasn't for ALL secrets, just Explosive Trap and Noble Sacrifice for example could make a world of difference. I really wouldn't mind seeing a boon to Paladin as a class either.
You can't harass members who play Face Hunter, nor are they compelled to make preemptive apologies or justifications for playing it. They don't hack or crack their opponents' game, they simply play existing cards that form a specific deck. If you suck at countering Face Hunter, you should blame the designers, not the community.
Still, I clicked this thread because i read WISP and OP in the same sentence. I was very disappointed!!
Well, if you go second as a Rogue then you can (Prep into Fan of Knives) * 2 -> Wisp, Shadowstep Wisp, Shadowstep Wisp -> Coin -> Van Cleef. That gives you 22/22 creature on turn 2 which is pretty OP. Unless it gets silenced and traded for Owl, but life happens.
Sure they could, but that requires one more mana, one more card, and you need to already have your weapon equipped. Grated that's no big deal for a decent player, but still it would need more resources to avoid seeing the killing combo disrupted. I would not like very much this kind of change for Misdirection, since against weapond wielding class it often wins games by itself if they misplay and end up attacking a big minion, although it would be nice since they couldn't play around it attacking with no minions on the board. As for Explosive and Noble, well, this change would surely make them a lot stronger on that regard, but playing around them would become much harder for those same classes, maybe unbalancing things too much in favor of secret wielding classes. You know what I mean, lot of people stop attacking when an hunter cast a secret just to avoid seeing their board wiped by explosive, at least come classes can partially play around this by attacking thamself to avoid the need to drop other minions as long as the trap is there. But Noble could become almost a guaranteed 1 for 1 in early game, and probably the only good Paladin answer to early game threats that would be at least sure to do something. All in all, I see this as a good idea, though probably some neutral secret hate would need to be introduced to balance things a bit, a legendary would be ok, even something that doesn't destroy secrets but REVEALS them would be nice IMHO.
Honestly, what current decks would explosive trap change hurt though? Shockadin maybe. That's all. Druid wouldn't be affected much except when they play Force of Nature, which would be a good thing IMO. Same with Miracle. Hunter already has flare, and would be benefiting just as much from E, Trap change. Control Warrior doesn't really care much. Control Paladin Doesn't care. I think if Neutral secret hate was printed, it would be more beneficial against mage than anything else, and these changes wouldn't even affect any mage secrets, as the only thing that could potentially be changed by this is Ice Barrier, which would be a nerf if anything.
I do agree that Misdirection probably should stay as-is though.
2 secrets not mentioned that I've personally found VERY good at stopping the Miracle Leeroy shinanigans. Counterspell and Spellbender. Spellbender in particular can gobble up a Shadowstep or Cold Blood and wreck a Rogue's day.
2 secrets not mentioned that I've personally found VERY good at stopping the Miracle Leeroy shinanigans. Counterspell and Spellbender. Spellbender in particular can gobble up a Shadowstep or Cold Blood and wreck a Rogue's day.
They weren't mentioned for the same reason Ice Block wasn't mentioned. They're irrelevant to the point of the thread.
Actually, both are in-game illustrations of the advantages and disadvantages of your proposed change to secrets. Replace spells with minions and they highlight the difference in behavior of "Minion" only triggers versus "any attack" triggers. Narrow trigger condition versus broad trigger condition.
Actually, both are in-game illustrations of the advantages and disadvantages of your proposed change to secrets. Replace spells with minions and they highlight the difference in behavior of "Minion" only triggers versus "any attack" triggers. Narrow trigger condition versus broad trigger condition.
This is already Illustrated by secrets that were discussed in the OP, without changing any wording. Freezing Trap vs. Explosive Trap for example. I still don't see the point. It's pretty obvious that "all" secrets shouldn't be changed, it doesn't make any sense to change Ice Barrier for example, and Misdirection, as already pointed out, shouldn't change either. Did you have an opinion on this at all, maybe I just missed it? I'm reading your post as "here's 2 more cards!"
Oddly enough, the playable secrets are already such a quality counter against Leeroy combo's that I'm surprised they haven't been metagamed harder than they've been. That's a good indication that combo's just not that dominating, which means that it's not every secret that should be evaluated in that framework. Because bear in mind, the trigger of "whenever a minion attacks your hero" is essentially a nerf to overall power level of those cards. In casual'ish, value oriented play, everyone clears the opponent's board as a matter of course. It's only all-out aggro that will attack past minions, and all-out control that routinely wins without clearing minions. Not to mention that it would make these triggers much easier to play around by a player who has figured out which they are. So, I think most players in normal space would see such a change as a needless nerf.
How about this clause - "When a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions"...? Maybe closer to what you want without removing things like Noble Sacrifice's ability to protect your 2-drops.
Still though, we seem to more or less agree that OTK's already have some answers in Miracle's. Freeze Mage's Ice Block is about the hardest counter to Miracle combos I could imagine, and Freeze Mage is on the rise wherever Miracle is a problem.
Oddly enough, the playable secrets are already such a quality counter against Leeroy combo's that I'm surprised they haven't been metagamed harder than they've been. That's a good indication that combo's just not that dominating, which means that it's not every secret that should be evaluated in that framework. Because bear in mind, the trigger of "whenever a minion attacks your hero" is essentially a nerf to overall power level of those cards. In casual'ish, value oriented play, everyone clears the opponent's board as a matter of course. It's only all-out aggro that will attack past minions, and all-out control that routinely wins without clearing minions. Not to mention that it would make these triggers much easier to play around by a player who has figured out which they are. So, I think most players in normal space would see such a change as a needless nerf.
How about this clause - "When a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions"...? Maybe closer to what you want without removing things like Noble Sacrifice's ability to protect your 2-drops.
Still though, we seem to more or less agree that OTK's already have some answers in Miracle's. Freeze Mage's Ice Block is about the hardest counter to Miracle combos I could imagine, and Freeze Mage is on the rise wherever Miracle is a problem.
I fail to see how this would be a nerf, it would be a buff in 99% of situations.. I would much rather my opponent be unable to clear my Explosive Trap/Noble Sacrifice with a weapon, before dropping their vulnerable minions. It's very rare that I would rather my Defender token be used to block a weapon than a minion.
It would also make secrets harder to predict, I don't know how you could say otherwise. As it stands, if a hunter has a secret down, and I attack with my weapon, and nothing happens, I can eliminate 2/5 traps. With the proposed change, I could only eliminate 1/5 traps with this check. This would be the case with all secrets affected by this change...
Oddly enough, the playable secrets are already such a quality counter against Leeroy combo's that I'm surprised they haven't been metagamed harder than they've been. That's a good indication that combo's just not that dominating, which means that it's not every secret that should be evaluated in that framework. Because bear in mind, the trigger of "whenever a minion attacks your hero" is essentially a nerf to overall power level of those cards. In casual'ish, value oriented play, everyone clears the opponent's board as a matter of course. It's only all-out aggro that will attack past minions, and all-out control that routinely wins without clearing minions. Not to mention that it would make these triggers much easier to play around by a player who has figured out which they are. So, I think most players in normal space would see such a change as a needless nerf.
How about this clause - "When a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions"...? Maybe closer to what you want without removing things like Noble Sacrifice's ability to protect your 2-drops.
Still though, we seem to more or less agree that OTK's already have some answers in Miracle's. Freeze Mage's Ice Block is about the hardest counter to Miracle combos I could imagine, and Freeze Mage is on the rise wherever Miracle is a problem.
I fail to see how this would be a nerf, it would be a buff in 99% of situations.. I would much rather my opponent be unable to clear my Explosive Trap/Noble Sacrifice with a weapon, before dropping their vulnerable minions. It's very rare that I would rather my Defender token be used to block a weapon than a minion.
It would also make secrets harder to predict, I don't know how you could say otherwise. As it stands, if a hunter has a secret down, and I attack with my weapon, and nothing happens, I can eliminate 2/5 traps. With the proposed change, I could only eliminate 1/5 traps with this check. This would be the case with all secrets affected by this change...
You are misreading. I said "when a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions". Under that clause, attacking down a Secret with a weapon is exactly what the opponent wouldn't be able to do.
The clause you proposed was "when a minion attacks your hero". Under either clause, attacking anything with a weapon gives you exactly zero information. But under the attacks on hero only clause, attacks on minions, summoning minions, etc, would give the opponent information about which secret it is BEFORE they trigger the secret. If they trigger the secret, it already doesn't matter, because now the secret hasn't blanked. They've played up to that point as if they could've been affected by the worse secrets, and made the optimal choice.
It's just that a secret that triggers only attacks on hero does nothing to prevent the opponent from taking control over the board, and knowing how not to trigger the trap, they'll craft a scenario where the trap is unimportant. Attacks on hero only would be a very, very defensive, control-oriented Secret out of a deck that's typically the aggressor. Again, not really an issue in Aggro on Combo play because board control isn't being fought for, but out in normal space, this game is about clearing an opponent's minions with your own. And that Secret would do nothing to kill enemy minions or protect yours. Nerf under normal, non-Leeroy combo scenarios.
Oddly enough, the playable secrets are already such a quality counter against Leeroy combo's that I'm surprised they haven't been metagamed harder than they've been. That's a good indication that combo's just not that dominating, which means that it's not every secret that should be evaluated in that framework. Because bear in mind, the trigger of "whenever a minion attacks your hero" is essentially a nerf to overall power level of those cards. In casual'ish, value oriented play, everyone clears the opponent's board as a matter of course. It's only all-out aggro that will attack past minions, and all-out control that routinely wins without clearing minions. Not to mention that it would make these triggers much easier to play around by a player who has figured out which they are. So, I think most players in normal space would see such a change as a needless nerf.
How about this clause - "When a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions"...? Maybe closer to what you want without removing things like Noble Sacrifice's ability to protect your 2-drops.
Still though, we seem to more or less agree that OTK's already have some answers in Miracle's. Freeze Mage's Ice Block is about the hardest counter to Miracle combos I could imagine, and Freeze Mage is on the rise wherever Miracle is a problem.
I fail to see how this would be a nerf, it would be a buff in 99% of situations.. I would much rather my opponent be unable to clear my Explosive Trap/Noble Sacrifice with a weapon, before dropping their vulnerable minions. It's very rare that I would rather my Defender token be used to block a weapon than a minion.
It would also make secrets harder to predict, I don't know how you could say otherwise. As it stands, if a hunter has a secret down, and I attack with my weapon, and nothing happens, I can eliminate 2/5 traps. With the proposed change, I could only eliminate 1/5 traps with this check. This would be the case with all secrets affected by this change...
You are misreading. I said "when a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions". Under that clause, attacking down a Secret with a weapon is exactly what the opponent wouldn't be able to do.
The clause you proposed was "when a minion attacks your hero". Under either clause, attacking anything with a weapon gives you exactly zero information. But under the attacks on hero only clause, attacks on minions, summoning minions, etc, would give the opponent information about which secret it is BEFORE they trigger the secret. If they trigger the secret, it already doesn't matter, because now the secret hasn't blanked. They've played up to that point as if they could've been affected by the worse secrets, and made the optimal choice.
It's just that a secret that triggers only attacks on hero does nothing to prevent the opponent from taking control over the board, and knowing how not to trigger the trap, they'll craft a scenario where the trap is unimportant. Attacks on hero only would be a very, very defensive, control-oriented Secret out of a deck that's typically the aggressor. Again, not really an issue in Aggro on Combo play because board control isn't being fought for, but out in normal space, this game is about clearing an opponent's minions with your own. And that Secret would do nothing to kill enemy minions or protect yours. Nerf under normal, non-Leeroy combo scenarios.
I see, I missed the clause that you proposed. I suppose, I hadn't thought about the utility loss on Noble Sacrifice specifically. That is a good point. But again, even the "minion>minon or hero" change that you suggested is hardly a nerf in my eyes. It's only a nerf when an enemy wants to kill your minion with a weapon, and I think that's far less common than the benefit you would receive from the change, which would be buying you a turn or more when a game winning minion attacks your face.
The question I really want answered is: Why are Miracle Rogues and Druids allowed to develop an OTK without a board position while Hunters and Warriors have their respective combo decks broken via card changes with the exact same reasoning? While the Hunter deck was gimmicky and mediocre at best and Warrior one was insanely hard to play, Miracle sits there waiting for an Aucioneer in hand, draws its entire deck and dominates the upper ranks. I want my gimmicky combo-control back dammit...
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Hunter only!
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I'm sure we're all getting pretty tired of the "Nerf Combo X/Y" threads, and this thread isn't suggesting that any cards be nerfed, but simply pointing out what I feel is the biggest problem with the current Combos that exist in HS.
Miracle Rogue: Everyone screams "Nerf Leeroy", while the players with more foresight tend to say that the problem doesn't lie with Leeroy, as it can be replaced with little effect, but in the enablers like Gadgetzan, Preparation, etc. I think that Miracle is fine honestly, I see the importance of combo decks and understand that this is in fact a dedicated combo deck, they spend the whole game trying to cycle their deck into the ideal hand, and then win. Seems legit.
Druid: I actually tend to think that Savage Roar/Force of Nature is worse for the game than anything Miracle Rogue does. It's very often an OTK that is COMPLETELY out of nowhere. Whereas Miracle spends the whole match cycling for a combo hand, the Druid Player isn't even remotely reliant on this combo, yet can suddenly draw into an "I win" button. Still, I don't think that this is inherently broken.
The problem I have with these combos, and the problem most people seem to have, is that there is little to no way to interact with these combos. In a game like MTG, I could Force of Will your Leeroy, and almost assuredly win the game. Obviously HS has no such mechanic, and the merits of that can be argued all day. What HS does have however, is secrets. 1/3 of the classes in HS have secrets that directly answer a Miracle Leeroy for example. Explosive Trap, Snipe, Freezing Trap, Noble Sacrifice, Vaporize, even Misdirection in many cases are hard counters to Leeroy.
The problem with this is the 2 classes that run these non-interactive combos (Rogue, Druid), are also the 2 classes that have a Hero Power that allows them to attack. This means they have a reliable way to check for traps every turn, effectively making Explosive Trap, Noble Sacrifice, and Misdirection useless. In the case of Rogue, they can hero power up and still have enough Mana for an OTK the same turn.
I'm not really advocating any sort of nerf, I honestly don't think either of these decks are THAT much of a problem, but if there was some sort of a nerf, I think it makes more sense to nerf their "counter-counter" than to nerf their cards, that would hinder other decks.
In fact, rather than any sort of nerf, I think it would be better to change the text of all secrets to read "when a minion attacks your hero." This change would hardly be relevant in most matchups, yet make a world of difference as far as answering combo.
Thoughts?
Even if the change wasn't for ALL secrets, just Explosive Trap and Noble Sacrifice for example could make a world of difference. I really wouldn't mind seeing a boon to Paladin as a class either.
Thoughtful.. And really considerable.
You can't harass members who play Face Hunter, nor are they compelled to make preemptive apologies or justifications for playing it. They don't hack or crack their opponents' game, they simply play existing cards that form a specific deck. If you suck at countering Face Hunter, you should blame the designers, not the community.
Well, if you go second as a Rogue then you can (Prep into Fan of Knives) * 2 -> Wisp, Shadowstep Wisp, Shadowstep Wisp -> Coin -> Van Cleef. That gives you 22/22 creature on turn 2 which is pretty OP. Unless it gets silenced and traded for Owl, but life happens.
Honestly, what current decks would explosive trap change hurt though? Shockadin maybe. That's all. Druid wouldn't be affected much except when they play Force of Nature, which would be a good thing IMO. Same with Miracle. Hunter already has flare, and would be benefiting just as much from E, Trap change. Control Warrior doesn't really care much. Control Paladin Doesn't care. I think if Neutral secret hate was printed, it would be more beneficial against mage than anything else, and these changes wouldn't even affect any mage secrets, as the only thing that could potentially be changed by this is Ice Barrier, which would be a nerf if anything.
I do agree that Misdirection probably should stay as-is though.
2 secrets not mentioned that I've personally found VERY good at stopping the Miracle Leeroy shinanigans. Counterspell and Spellbender. Spellbender in particular can gobble up a Shadowstep or Cold Blood and wreck a Rogue's day.
They weren't mentioned for the same reason Ice Block wasn't mentioned. They're irrelevant to the point of the thread.
Actually, both are in-game illustrations of the advantages and disadvantages of your proposed change to secrets. Replace spells with minions and they highlight the difference in behavior of "Minion" only triggers versus "any attack" triggers. Narrow trigger condition versus broad trigger condition.
This is already Illustrated by secrets that were discussed in the OP, without changing any wording. Freezing Trap vs. Explosive Trap for example. I still don't see the point. It's pretty obvious that "all" secrets shouldn't be changed, it doesn't make any sense to change Ice Barrier for example, and Misdirection, as already pointed out, shouldn't change either. Did you have an opinion on this at all, maybe I just missed it? I'm reading your post as "here's 2 more cards!"
Oddly enough, the playable secrets are already such a quality counter against Leeroy combo's that I'm surprised they haven't been metagamed harder than they've been. That's a good indication that combo's just not that dominating, which means that it's not every secret that should be evaluated in that framework. Because bear in mind, the trigger of "whenever a minion attacks your hero" is essentially a nerf to overall power level of those cards. In casual'ish, value oriented play, everyone clears the opponent's board as a matter of course. It's only all-out aggro that will attack past minions, and all-out control that routinely wins without clearing minions. Not to mention that it would make these triggers much easier to play around by a player who has figured out which they are. So, I think most players in normal space would see such a change as a needless nerf.
How about this clause - "When a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions"...? Maybe closer to what you want without removing things like Noble Sacrifice's ability to protect your 2-drops.
Still though, we seem to more or less agree that OTK's already have some answers in Miracle's. Freeze Mage's Ice Block is about the hardest counter to Miracle combos I could imagine, and Freeze Mage is on the rise wherever Miracle is a problem.
I fail to see how this would be a nerf, it would be a buff in 99% of situations.. I would much rather my opponent be unable to clear my Explosive Trap/Noble Sacrifice with a weapon, before dropping their vulnerable minions. It's very rare that I would rather my Defender token be used to block a weapon than a minion.
It would also make secrets harder to predict, I don't know how you could say otherwise. As it stands, if a hunter has a secret down, and I attack with my weapon, and nothing happens, I can eliminate 2/5 traps. With the proposed change, I could only eliminate 1/5 traps with this check. This would be the case with all secrets affected by this change...
You are misreading. I said "when a minion attacks your hero or one of your minions". Under that clause, attacking down a Secret with a weapon is exactly what the opponent wouldn't be able to do.
The clause you proposed was "when a minion attacks your hero". Under either clause, attacking anything with a weapon gives you exactly zero information. But under the attacks on hero only clause, attacks on minions, summoning minions, etc, would give the opponent information about which secret it is BEFORE they trigger the secret. If they trigger the secret, it already doesn't matter, because now the secret hasn't blanked. They've played up to that point as if they could've been affected by the worse secrets, and made the optimal choice.
It's just that a secret that triggers only attacks on hero does nothing to prevent the opponent from taking control over the board, and knowing how not to trigger the trap, they'll craft a scenario where the trap is unimportant. Attacks on hero only would be a very, very defensive, control-oriented Secret out of a deck that's typically the aggressor. Again, not really an issue in Aggro on Combo play because board control isn't being fought for, but out in normal space, this game is about clearing an opponent's minions with your own. And that Secret would do nothing to kill enemy minions or protect yours. Nerf under normal, non-Leeroy combo scenarios.
I see, I missed the clause that you proposed. I suppose, I hadn't thought about the utility loss on Noble Sacrifice specifically. That is a good point. But again, even the "minion>minon or hero" change that you suggested is hardly a nerf in my eyes. It's only a nerf when an enemy wants to kill your minion with a weapon, and I think that's far less common than the benefit you would receive from the change, which would be buying you a turn or more when a game winning minion attacks your face.
The question I really want answered is: Why are Miracle Rogues and Druids allowed to develop an OTK without a board position while Hunters and Warriors have their respective combo decks broken via card changes with the exact same reasoning? While the Hunter deck was gimmicky and mediocre at best and Warrior one was insanely hard to play, Miracle sits there waiting for an Aucioneer in hand, draws its entire deck and dominates the upper ranks. I want my gimmicky combo-control back dammit...
Hunter only!