It's not a simple reorder, there is a change in the way if it works. If it said "When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this", it would mean it only snuffs out a candle when it's drawn, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. By writing all card effects separately, it means they are independent from each other, and the effects are the same, no matter how it's cast (drawing it, casting from your hand, cast by Grand Archivist).
I meant you only reordered the effects that are currently printed on Darkness Candle. So what you are saying essentially is that there should be no change to the current wording. I happen to agree with that. I only was trying to point out that if the developers intended for it to only snuff out a candle when drawn and not when cast, they could have easily worded it that way instead.
It's not a simple reorder, there is a change in the way if it works. If it said "When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this", it would mean it only snuffs out a candle when it's drawn, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. By writing all card effects separately, it means they are independent from each other, and the effects are the same, no matter how it's cast (drawing it, casting from your hand, cast by Grand Archivist).
That wording - where the candle is only snuffed out when drawn - would be consistent with The Darkness. One or the other needs to be changed for clarity - because whilst the candle agrees with your interpretation, the wording of the darkness does not.
The Darkness actually doesn't say casting won't work. All it says is that drawing them will awaken him. It's a big difference. If I say "playing Novice Engineer will draw you a card", I don't say that you cannot draw cards in any other way.
I think the far more likely scenario is that Darkness Candle works exactly as intended. What happened with Grand Archivist is that he targetted the other player (targets chosen randomly). In the end of that game the 3 snuffed out candles were spread between the two players, neither having 3 snuffed out, so The Darkness never awakened.
Random targeting only applies for cards that you actually have to aim at a character when you cast them. I haven't played Darkness Candle from hand but I'm pretty sure you don't aim it and it just automatically effects the other player's Darkness. The "Snuff out a candle" wording doesn't specifically say that it targets your opponent, but unless you could target yourself when you cast it from hand, Grand Archivist can't target you either.
If the problem is that the game thinks the card is being cast on your opponent's side due to it being the end of your turn, that's still a bug.
It's not a simple reorder, there is a change in the way if it works. If it said "When drawn, snuff out a candle and cast this", it would mean it only snuffs out a candle when it's drawn, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. By writing all card effects separately, it means they are independent from each other, and the effects are the same, no matter how it's cast (drawing it, casting from your hand, cast by Grand Archivist).
That wording - where the candle is only snuffed out when drawn - would be consistent with The Darkness. One or the other needs to be changed for clarity - because whilst the candle agrees with your interpretation, the wording of the darkness does not.
The Darkness actually doesn't say casting won't work. All it says is that drawing them will awaken him. It's a big difference. If I say "playing Novice Engineer will draw you a card", I don't say that you cannot draw cards in any other way.
I think the far more likely scenario is that Darkness Candle works exactly as intended. What happened with Grand Archivist is that he targetted the other player (targets chosen randomly). In the end of that game the 3 snuffed out candles were spread between the two players, neither having 3 snuffed out, so The Darkness never awakened.
Random targeting only applies for cards that you actually have to aim at a character when you cast them. I haven't played Darkness Candle from hand but I'm pretty sure you don't aim it and it just automatically effects the other player's Darkness. The "Snuff out a candle" wording doesn't specifically say that it targets your opponent, but unless you could target yourself when you cast it from hand, Grand Archivist can't target you either.
If the problem is that the game thinks the card is being cast on your opponent's side due to it being the end of your turn, that's still a bug.
Yeah, that is a good point.
Maybe it is a bug. Hard to say for sure without more reports of the occurance though. Should be fairly simple to test for anyone who owns the card, although somewhat time consuming.
Here's a different untested theory, based on two assumptions:[deck]Deck ID or Code[/deck]
Candles are player specific. E.g. Player 1's The Darkness is activated by Player 2 drawing Darkness Candles, and visa versa.
Playing the 4 cost spell Darkness Candle is a positive thing (why else would you ever play it). E.g. Player 1 playing a stolen copy of a Darkness Candle will help activate Player 1's The Darkness faster.
If these two points are true, then drawing and playing a Darkness Candle has the opposite effect. Drawing them hurts you. Playing them helps you.
Here's a different untested theory, based on two assumptions:[deck]Deck ID or Code[/deck]
Candles are player specific. E.g. Player 1's The Darkness is activated by Player 2 drawing Darkness Candles, and visa versa.
Playing the 4 cost spell Darkness Candle is a positive thing (why else would you ever play it). E.g. Player 1 playing a stolen copy of a Darkness Candle will help activate Player 1's The Darkness faster.
If these two points are true, then drawing and playing a Darkness Candle has the opposite effect. Drawing them hurts you. Playing them helps you.
Bullet two is false. Casting from hand awakens the other player's darkness if they have one, not your own. I am convinced by now though that the Archivist decides whether the candle goes to player one or two and that's why it ometimes wont awaken.
Here's a different untested theory, based on two assumptions:[deck]Deck ID or Code[/deck]
Candles are player specific. E.g. Player 1's The Darkness is activated by Player 2 drawing Darkness Candles, and visa versa.
Playing the 4 cost spell Darkness Candle is a positive thing (why else would you ever play it). E.g. Player 1 playing a stolen copy of a Darkness Candle will help activate Player 1's The Darkness faster.
If these two points are true, then drawing and playing a Darkness Candle has the opposite effect. Drawing them hurts you. Playing them helps you.
Bullet two is false. Casting from hand awakens the other player's darkness if they have one, not your own. I am convinced by now though that the Archivist decides whether the candle goes to player one or two and that's why it ometimes wont awaken.
Here's a different untested theory, based on two assumptions:[deck]Deck ID or Code[/deck]
Candles are player specific. E.g. Player 1's The Darkness is activated by Player 2 drawing Darkness Candles, and visa versa.
Playing the 4 cost spell Darkness Candle is a positive thing (why else would you ever play it). E.g. Player 1 playing a stolen copy of a Darkness Candle will help activate Player 1's The Darkness faster.
If these two points are true, then drawing and playing a Darkness Candle has the opposite effect. Drawing them hurts you. Playing them helps you.
Bullet two is false. Casting from hand awakens the other player's darkness if they have one, not your own. I am convinced by now though that the Archivist decides whether the candle goes to player one or two and that's why it ometimes wont awaken.
Random target is only random among valid targets. Non targeted spells such as the darkness will always cast for the side the archivist is on. For example, Yogg casting Sprint will never select the opponent to draw 4.
The only explanation is that the PLAYER must cast the candlr for the darkness to activate. This makes sense because you cannot activate your own darkness if you steal candles. Something in the code must specifically key off the casting player identity.
In the case of archivist, the archivist is casting the spell NOT the PLAYER. Therefore the player check fails and the darkness is not awakened. You will, however, still draw a card because that portion of the effect does not have a conditional.
While strange, this is actually consistent with what we already know about the game. There are other case studies that show how cards count as the casting entity and not the player. For example, spells casted by minions do not trigger mana wyrm or reduce the cost of arcane giant.
In conclusion I chalk this up to coding oversight not considering the possibility of a card casting generated token spells in lieu of the player... which is strange since both the darkness and archivist came out in the same expansion making bug testing easier. It's understandable to miss a specific interaction with a card printed 2 years ago, but at the same time seems inexcusable.
The worst part is that archivist consumes the actual spell from your deck rather than casts a copy, meaning that if archivist hits the candle the darkness will never activate even if the entire deck is drawn.
In the case of archivist, the archivist is casting the spell NOT the PLAYER. Therefore the player check fails and the darkness is not awakened. You will, however, still draw a card because that portion of the effect does not have a conditional.
While strange, this is actually consistent with what we already know about the game. There are other case studies that show how cards count as the casting entity and not the player. For example, spells casted by minions do not trigger mana wyrm or reduce the cost of arcane giant.
(...)
Slight problem with that. When you draw a card, and the card is automatically cast, it also won't activate anything reacting to spell casts. By this explanation, drawing Darkness Candles shouldn't snuff out candles either.
In the case of archivist, the archivist is casting the spell NOT the PLAYER. Therefore the player check fails and the darkness is not awakened. You will, however, still draw a card because that portion of the effect does not have a conditional.
While strange, this is actually consistent with what we already know about the game. There are other case studies that show how cards count as the casting entity and not the player. For example, spells casted by minions do not trigger mana wyrm or reduce the cost of arcane giant.
(...)
Slight problem with that. When you draw a card, and the card is automatically cast, it also won't activate anything reacting to spell casts. By this explanation, drawing Darkness Candles shouldn't snuff out candles either.
True. That portion must be hard coded into the card to override normal rules.
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Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
But still, regardless of a bug or no, Blizz should change the text on The Darkness and Darkness Candle to match each other, or at least day that it is working the way they intend.
But still, regardless of a bug or no, Blizz should change the text on The Darkness and Darkness Candle to match each other, or at least day that it is working the way they intend.
Agreed, however don't hold your breath. Text consistency isn't Blizzard's style. They wouldn't even update Y'saarj to use the recruit keyword...
Here's a different untested theory, based on two assumptions:[deck]Deck ID or Code[/deck]
If these two points are true, then drawing and playing a Darkness Candle has the opposite effect. Drawing them hurts you. Playing them helps you.
If Grand Archivist would cast a Darkness Candle under these rules, it would not help awake your opponent's The Darkness, but instead advance your own. This would also leave your deck with too few Darkness Candles to activate your opponent's The Darkness, without them playing additional stolen Darkness Candles.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
But still, regardless of a bug or no, Blizz should change the text on The Darkness and Darkness Candle to match each other, or at least day that it is working the way they intend.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.