I've been encountering far fewer aggro decks the last couple of days, and more Reno/Control decks, I suppose as a response to all the earlier aggro decks. Interesting. I hope this trend continues.
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When 90% of cards are rendered worthless, that is not healthy.
When 90% of strategies are rendered worthless, that is not healthy.
When a game with thousands of options becomes "paper, rock, scissors", that is the 'epitome of stupid'. For those enchanted by those 3 options, go lobby for a Paper, Rock, scissors game. All they would have to do is throw in flashy pictures and some bells and whistles and you'll be content. But for a game like this to do that, it's economic suicide.
Should they nerf the Jade Druid or Warrior Pirate? No, nerfing is never the answer. They should add ways to combat those that aren't relegated to having only a pitiful selection to choose from. Magic Duels is in the same exact boat, Vehicles, Planeswalkers, mindless aggro.
@Falbrogna; Mech Shaman winning by turn 3 was about as common as Pirate Warrior/Shaman winning by turn 4. So it's more to point out exactly that extreme examples don't really mean much.
Funny that I don't remember that happening then, considering I've been playing since the beta. And the fact that you lump up together Pirate Warrior/Shaman in terms of winning by turn 4 kinda feels bizarre to me considering the subject. You do know that one has a massively bigger burst potential than the other? And if you do, why are you treating them as if they're the same?
By your own argument they added Fatigue immunity to the game, and they haven't actually removed anything; you can still play Fatigue, it's just not as reliable as it used to be with old Control Warrior builds. Change is healthy for games, this is an example of change.
Aah, the good old "change is always good and can't possibly be a bad change" fallacy.
You not remembering it doesn't meant it didn't happen (unanswered Zap-O-Matics were deadly), and the point still stands both situations are essentially the nut draws for any of those decks to win that quickly. I've also been playing since beta as well, so it's not really like that's giving you a leg up in the conversation to be honest; what we're seeing now is really no different than past hyper-aggro, and those clearly haven't killed the game yet. That's why I treat Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman the same, because that's how ludicrous the idea of consistent Turn 4 wins is for any of the mentioned lists.
You're also putting words in my mouth if you think I'm implying changes are always good; what I am saying however is that changes in games are what keep them healthy. This is why Standard is considered a good thing, this is why Control Warrior seeing churns in strategy is a good thing; what would you prefer, we always play lists the same way and never worry about them becoming irrelevant? Do you really still want Secret Paladin on ladder? If lists you don't like falling out of favor is something you're okay with, don't be a hypocrite when your lists have the same thing happen to them.
Nice dodge about the Reno thing, I guess you don't really have anything to back up the "Reno is the only good Control option" idea. Not surprising.
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I gotta have to say that since I played less and less the last couple of months, I am matchmaked against let's call them special decks. I played against c'thun priest, c'thun warlock, a bunch of pirate warriors, resurrect priest, even a renolock with rafaam, felfire potion and a control warrior etc. I was quiet surprized that this game makes more fun if you play less lol. I'm happier now than I was when I played this game a lot more
Every meta is always focused on what deck is the top dog.
Previously was Midrange Shaman + a couple of decks that did well against it, everything else dead.
Now is Reno decks + a couple of decks that did well against them, everything else dead.
Is this healthy? Yes, but next expansion needs to change things drastically, otherwise will be very bad.
You think Reno decks are stronger than Pirate decks?
Yes, they force the metagame in a specific direction more than anything else. With Reno in the metagame, aggro is forced to kill before turn 6, which pushes all-in strategies like Pirate Warrior. If true reactive control was still alive (it is not, because of Reno), then probably a tempo/midrange approach would be more appropriate.
I think you have it backwards. Pirates are just so fast and strong early on that Reno is one of the only viable comeback mechanics for slower decks. If you look at the meta snapshots by vS or Tempostorm, you'll see that Pirates have the highest winrate right now and therefore have an influence on the meta more than anything else.
Meta can be considered healthy when game requires thinking to win, and there is a possibility of creating original decks, which is both false now. Now there are only two types of decks in the ladder - pirates and decks that consist of all possible healing cards of the class altogether, including reno, otherwise pirates kill you turn 3-4. No creativity is encouraged. If you create your own funny deck with interesting combos that is not full of healing cards - you loose to pirates turn 3-4. If you don't hit face yourself or you don't heal your face every turn - you lose. How is this healthy?>
Meta can be considered healthy when game requires thinking to win, and there is a possibility of creating original decks, which is both false now. Now there are only two types of decks in the ladder - pirates and decks that consist of all possible healing cards of the class altogether, including reno, otherwise pirates kill you turn 3-4. No creativity is encouraged. If you create your own funny deck with interesting combos that is not full of healing cards - you loose to pirates turn 3-4. If you don't hit face yourself or you don't heal your face every turn - you lose. How is this healthy?>
I mean as absurd as it sounds, the game still requires thinking to win. Also original decks are still legitimate you just have to treat it like literally any other card game meta and make sure you build with them in mind; if your deck is going to lose to the field in general, then the problem at that point is with your build and not the decks out there right now. Now if you're in it just for kicks and want to win with those combos, go for it! But overall you have to realize if you bring a list to anything resembling a competitive portion of the game it's likely just going to lose no matter the amount of Pirates or Reno decks exist in the game, and always will. I guess I'd have to see the builds you have in mind to really get a sense of what's being lost, but you still have people experimenting and having at least mild success with a bunch of off-meta lists right now.
Basically my point is, "funny and interesting" is not a stable win condition and probably never will be.
Also, if we keep moving the clock back on Pirate Warrior's kill turn then there's no reason to really discuss it; Turn 4 is already a case where they drew the nuts, let alone Turn 3 when they're even more unlikely to have killed you. Hyperbole isn't a good way to legitimize your points.
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and my point is, a pretty high percentage of player play hearthstone for fun, not to gain fortune on tournaments. My rank is around 9-12. And there is no fun when face decks are everywhere and a lot of classes are forgotten. Turn 3 is impossible, you are right, but I died turn four three times today, and I think that is not acceptable. I also think that it's not normal that I have to focus on defending myself from aggro alone while building my deck, because I still go up the ladder if I win 0% games against control, but win 75% against aggro now.
Once Reno rotates out it will be more varied, because true "heavy" midrange decks will be back. But even now so many archetypes are valid: aggro, control, combo, midrange . Which is a good thing. What's not good is that two classes are almost unplayable right now.
and my point is, a pretty high percentage of player play hearthstone for fun, not to gain fortune on tournaments. My rank is around 9-12. And there is no fun when face decks are everywhere and a lot of classes are forgotten. Turn 3 is impossible, you are right, but I died turn four three times today, and I think that is not acceptable. I also think that it's not normal that I have to focus on defending myself from aggro alone while building my deck, because I still go up the ladder if I win 0% games against control, but win 75% against aggro now.
Now I certainly agree players competing on a serious level (as in, this is at minimum treated as a side job to them) are an extremely small portion of the game, and even players that want to climb to single digit ranks are a small portion of the game... but if you're at Rank 9-12 you're already approaching single digit percentages of the playerbase, where fun for people really equates to winning and climbing the ladder. It's unfortunately a byproduct of ladder design, but it's always been the case the fastest solid deck is virtually always the most popular because that's where those higher ranks really find enjoyment.
I can't speak to you dying on Turn 4 in three games and how much variance had to play into that, but I think I've died on Turn 4 maybe once or twice since MSoG. Generally my games against Aggro where I lose end around turns 6-8, which can be frustrating but overall comparable to how aggressive strategies play out in any card game you're playing really. Looking at how matchups have panned out and how many suitable counter options are available (if you don't want Reno Control Warrior/Shaman is fine, and Midrange Shaman is still amazing), I feel like Aggro is scary but still balanced in the grand scheme of things.
Hunter and Paladin weren't really forgotten, and they both got great cards this expansion. Sometimes however, good cards don't fit in decks that fit the resulting meta... it's unfortunate, but this isn't new to card games and I think it's probably just unlikely we'll ever see all of the classes find a spot in Tier 1/2. Team 5 really didn't neglect anyone this expansion.
It's absolutely normal to focus on defending yourself from Aggro. There was an article on either r/hearthstone or r/competitivehs that basically laid out exactly that; you never really tech your deck for Control when you're bringing it to ladder. By design Aggro/Midrange are just going to be more popular, so when you make a deck choice you should plan accordingly; this changes in tournaments certainly, but the case has always been that if you could win at least 50/50 against the fastest deck in the meta your deck was a solid pick. Once again like I said, if you want to play combos you find fun I think that's great... but you have to be realistic about the environment you're bringing the deck into as far as your expectations to win. If you look at any card game, this is going to be the case for all of them.
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Extreme aggro and control deck should be nerved to oblivion because it's really unhealthy to have extremely high power level, and now some classes such as Hunter stays dead because nobody plays midrange anymore. The game is just bad as GvG except theres more haters into this game because some classes get huge help and other classes become trash as old rouge does. Atleast the card designs are pretty nice, but I still want Jade Idol and pirates nerfed or reworked.
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I like elementals and totems.
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I've been encountering far fewer aggro decks the last couple of days, and more Reno/Control decks, I suppose as a response to all the earlier aggro decks. Interesting. I hope this trend continues.
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Healthy?
When 90% of cards are rendered worthless, that is not healthy.
When 90% of strategies are rendered worthless, that is not healthy.
When a game with thousands of options becomes "paper, rock, scissors", that is the 'epitome of stupid'. For those enchanted by those 3 options, go lobby for a Paper, Rock, scissors game. All they would have to do is throw in flashy pictures and some bells and whistles and you'll be content. But for a game like this to do that, it's economic suicide.
Should they nerf the Jade Druid or Warrior Pirate? No, nerfing is never the answer. They should add ways to combat those that aren't relegated to having only a pitiful selection to choose from. Magic Duels is in the same exact boat, Vehicles, Planeswalkers, mindless aggro.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
I gotta have to say that since I played less and less the last couple of months, I am matchmaked against let's call them special decks. I played against c'thun priest, c'thun warlock, a bunch of pirate warriors, resurrect priest, even a renolock with rafaam, felfire potion and a control warrior etc. I was quiet surprized that this game makes more fun if you play less lol. I'm happier now than I was when I played this game a lot more
Just remember the good times!
Meta can be considered healthy when game requires thinking to win, and there is a possibility of creating original decks, which is both false now. Now there are only two types of decks in the ladder - pirates and decks that consist of all possible healing cards of the class altogether, including reno, otherwise pirates kill you turn 3-4. No creativity is encouraged. If you create your own funny deck with interesting combos that is not full of healing cards - you loose to pirates turn 3-4. If you don't hit face yourself or you don't heal your face every turn - you lose. How is this healthy?>
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
and my point is, a pretty high percentage of player play hearthstone for fun, not to gain fortune on tournaments. My rank is around 9-12. And there is no fun when face decks are everywhere and a lot of classes are forgotten. Turn 3 is impossible, you are right, but I died turn four three times today, and I think that is not acceptable. I also think that it's not normal that I have to focus on defending myself from aggro alone while building my deck, because I still go up the ladder if I win 0% games against control, but win 75% against aggro now.
Once Reno rotates out it will be more varied, because true "heavy" midrange decks will be back. But even now so many archetypes are valid: aggro, control, combo, midrange . Which is a good thing. What's not good is that two classes are almost unplayable right now.
True! Meta right now is like HandBuff Paladin, Reno Warrior, Pirate Shaman. Happy my Dragons are handling the situation well
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
This meta is as healthy as a medieval infant infected by the black death.
Shaman, shaman, shaman. Because Blizzard doesn't know how to balance a game.
Fuck cubelock
Extreme aggro and control deck should be nerved to oblivion because it's really unhealthy to have extremely high power level, and now some classes such as Hunter stays dead because nobody plays midrange anymore. The game is just bad as GvG except theres more haters into this game because some classes get huge help and other classes become trash as old rouge does. Atleast the card designs are pretty nice, but I still want Jade Idol and pirates nerfed or reworked.
I like elementals and totems.