Hearthpwn

I wouldn't call it healty that my opponent can kill my coined doomsayer, but other than that, its fine.

I love it how every weapon class got Flame Imp without a drawback. Make that Flame Imp and a 1/1 dude which can swing right away if your not unlucky.

 Face hunter was one of the most hated decks of all time, but pirate decks is healthy for the meta.

I'm (still) at rank 5, playing (still) dragon priest. I agree the meta is healthy. With my deck playing 2 ooze and some nice taunts, my fear is mainly reno lock and miracle rogue. I normally win against both aggro shaman and pirate warrior.

What you just wrote KarabelasReal should be a sticky post which should be read and understood by the whole community. Well said! I agree 100%

Quote from Noob4l1f3 >>

meta is so healthy. I face a different class almost every game.

VS live data is showing something like this:

Top deck - Aggro shaman 53% win ratio
Also really good - 50%-52% win ration - 5 more decks.
Playable - 47% to 49% - 3 more decks.

This is about the best you can hope for.

PS - quite a few decks beat Pirate Warrior so quit moaning. (Aggro shaman, Dragon Warrior, Reno Mage, Reno Priest, Control Warrior) 

Based on stats from published legend climbs, Playskill(tm) and Metagaming(tm) can positively affect your win ratio between 10%-15%. In the last season when Dragon Warrior was like 40% average win rate a guy made legend with it with about 60% win rate.

KarabelasReal "Right now, the best control deck is Renolock, also by far."

According to VS live:

Renolock - 49% win
Renomage - 49% win
Reno Priest - 48% win
Control Warrior - 45% win

It is not the best by as far as you think.

I would still say you are correct from the point of view that people are likely targeting Renolock with deck design choices but not the other two Reno decks.

Dude... just because those deck archetypes exist doesn't mean they are used... the meta is not healthy man rank 5 and below is just shaman and warrior... that is almost it.. same boat as last expac

Quote from ToPoleaDK >>

Dude... just because those deck archetypes exist doesn't mean they are used... the meta is not healthy man rank 5 and below is just shaman and warrior... that is almost it.. same boat as last expac

1. Shaman 25%
2. Warrior 19%
3. Warlock 18%
4. Priest 16%
5. Druid 11%
6. Mage 5%
7. Rogue 5%
8. Hunter 2%
9. Paladin 0%

So, it's below 50% to meet either a shaman or a warrior

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from Aether_lackey >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

General problem of people posting here is the lack of conceptual thinking, no longterm evaluation, seeing only what is before them, writing things without ample consideration. It is the bases of developers leaving the game as it is. As long as peope are braindead happy, while thinking that they are very wise in what they write, who cares? The money keeps poring in after all....

 You are arguing that for true balance every class should have a tier 1 deck. How realistic do you think that is? Do you think that even if hearthstone designers were geniuses with a lot more time between sets they'd be able to achieve that goal, and maintain that balance whenever they designed a new set? Seriously? I'm a long time magic player, there is no one time I can remember the colors were balanced, you always get combinations of them dominating a determined format... in the eternal formats it doesn't even change, it's blue crapping on every other color all the way. And wizards has been doing this for quite a while now, and magic is a slightly more serious game than HS.

Until last week my forum signature was still an old protest against blizz because shaman was an unplayable class. Sounds funny now, huh? Goes to show that things change, in terms of unplayable classes. 

 Don't be intellectually lazy. The fact that you haven't seen certain things before doesn't mean they are impossible. Your way of arguing (I only belief what I experience) is quit basic, probably primary school reasoning. Not organizing Tier 1 for every class is design politics, not an impossibility.

Quote from sighchoticnick >>

As someone whose main enjoyment of the game come from control decks, I'm no longer enjoying the game whatsoever. Whilst I can counter the Pirate Decks, there is nothing I can do against Jade Idol (Except cross my fingers in Reno Decks)

Both Pirate Warrior and Jade Druid are counterable yes - but myself and many others find no enjoyment in those very limited decks

(I'd be interested in seeing the winrate stats of Jade Druid vs Control Decks - My guess would be that it has a "Might as well concede" win chance)

24-hour win rates vs. Jade Druid (from Data Reaper Live)

Reno Warlock 47%
Reno Priest 39%
Reno Mage 33%
Control Warrior 38%

Meta Average vs. Jade Druid: 54%

So Jade Druid does shut down several control decks, but overall it is a poor meta deck with only a 46% win rate currently.

Yeah, i totaly agree :) 

I personally love how many viable decks we have in standard right now. Pirate Warrior may be a frustrating deck, but I've been playing a lot of dragon priest so I haven't fel the Aggro pain as much as others

Yea Meta is so healthy i see all kind of classes and decks but damn those handbuff paladins and goon hunters wreck me /s

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from Aether_lackey >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from Aether_lackey >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

General problem of people posting here is the lack of conceptual thinking, no longterm evaluation, seeing only what is before them, writing things without ample consideration. It is the bases of developers leaving the game as it is. As long as peope are braindead happy, while thinking that they are very wise in what they write, who cares? The money keeps poring in after all....

 You are arguing that for true balance every class should have a tier 1 deck. How realistic do you think that is? Do you think that even if hearthstone designers were geniuses with a lot more time between sets they'd be able to achieve that goal, and maintain that balance whenever they designed a new set? Seriously? I'm a long time magic player, there is no one time I can remember the colors were balanced, you always get combinations of them dominating a determined format... in the eternal formats it doesn't even change, it's blue crapping on every other color all the way. And wizards has been doing this for quite a while now, and magic is a slightly more serious game than HS.

Until last week my forum signature was still an old protest against blizz because shaman was an unplayable class. Sounds funny now, huh? Goes to show that things change, in terms of unplayable classes. 

 Don't be intellectually lazy. The fact that you haven't seen certain things before doesn't mean they are impossible. Your way of arguing (I only belief what I experience) is quit basic, probably primary school reasoning. Not organizing Tier 1 for every class is design politics, not an impossibility.

 I didn't say it was impossible, buddy, you made that up. I will say it is however VIRTUALLY impossible, here's why.

First off, classes have different hero powers. Just because of that fact you can't just objectively make two class cards that are equal in strength, even if they look exactly the same. For example, if you give warlocks a minion that is identical to a minion a paladin has, it will be a stronger card in the warlock arsenal because of the stronger warlock hero power. That doesn't mean warlocks can't have good cards, but it does mean that they have to be balanced taking into consideration the draw a card hero power. So to start off we see that you can't objectively say that 2 cards between 2 classes are perfectly balanced, there will be stronger and weaker cards, and that will show up in the winrates decks containing them are able to achieve. Ben Brode and more importantly Mark Rosewater made the argument that you can't have perfectly balanced cards, if you don't agree with that I suggest you go start a card game that becomes a great sucess and prove them wrong, because I sure think they're right.

If balancing individual cards is a very hard process, balancing an entire set, in a limited amount of time, while also working on flavour and technical issues, certainly takes a huge chunk of time. And no matter how long you keep on balancing the set, due to the nature of how cards can't be perfectly balanced, and in the case of hearthstone given how hero powers have advantages over other hero powers, you will never truly achieve. But if you did get really damn close to it, and the winrate of each class was nearly the same as every other, this would have taken years. Years of trial and error, because you can't objectively tell if Rat Pack is better than Imp Gang Boss unless you consider all interactions possible in the game for each of those cards and then compare it. And when you finally find it out, if you want perfect balance you need to go and change the weakest only enough so it catches up to the other one, but doesn't get better. Once you're satisfied and no longer have a single hair in your head, move on to the next card.

If you think this is a viable process, for every set they release, in the time frame they release them, you're clinically insane.

 First of I don't like on this forum to argue extensively since people don't read and I don't consider them to produce arguments of quality. So I keep it brief. The analysis to Tier 1 every class is not new and is here since beta. And since beta I hear that it is hard or impossible. It serves as a way to make skill, not RNG or OP-decks deside the rankup. That every rotation some class is forgotten in the competitive department is design politics not the natural order of things. It is brought as an impossibility otherwise as it forces you not to stick to one class. Brode and consort are famously known for misleading the masses with arguments while thinking about it easily refuted. Nonetheless it is brought as here's why and shut up, we decide. That being said, why should it be that before the last rotation Priest in a bad spot? And Paladin and to some extent Roque, while Zoolock and de Shamans ruled the meta?  If you can't see that this is deliberately done for purposes beyond your imagination, you need not be that naive. Brode succesfull created a flock who braindeadly repeat the mantra of impossibility of viability of all classes. Good for him, But I'm not fooled. We send a Roover to mars but simply balancing is impossible? Keep staying in your Brodian information bubble.

Quote from sighchoticnick >>

Quote from ScottAllen11 >>

24-hour win rates vs. Jade Druid (from Data Reaper Live)

Reno Warlock 47%
Reno Priest 39%
Reno Mage 33%
Control Warrior 38%

Meta Average vs. Jade Druid: 54%

So Jade Druid does shut down several control decks, but overall it is a poor meta deck with only a 46% win rate currently.

 I appreciate you getting some statistics to work with, but I see them as supporting my point

Basically, you have to play Reno to even have a chance - And whilst I love Reno Jackson and the other Reno style class cards, relying on drawing them to even have a chance against Jade Druid feels bad

There is also the matter of all the control decks for other classes. If the decks you pinpointed are the highest chance control decks, then I'm assuming the outlook as not so good for the rest of them 

not really.. nzoth rogue or anyfin paladin is still a thing. Erm, many renolock , jade druid , midrange shaman.. that plays jade golem etc. Maybe aggro is too easy..got to rank 10 in less than a hour from 20+

paladins and hunters? are u guys sure we are playing the same game? cause I havn't seen one since MSG, alltho I would believe pala isnt bad with pirates either and or even hunter tbh