My point here is not that other people have probably found out this deck themselves (maybe even earlier then Reynad in this case), but that the sample size of popular streamers is so small that when a deck is good and get's noticed, the 1st of these guys gets name of "the" developper of the deck and that this is one of the reasons they are popular and get invited to tournaments.
My glowing attribution of Mad Trapper to Reynad was a bit tongue-in-cheek and a bit of a troll. :) All told, I'm not a fan of Reynad at all. I think he's bad for the game in general, simply due to his poor judgement where his public life intersects with his Hearthstone life. And usually he's creating that intersect unnecessarily.
Great article. Trump is a great example in that he is a great streamer ( i watched his streams while the game was in beta alomst every day till i got an invite myself), a terrific Arena player, but a mediocre constructed player.
Mediocre constructed player? You do realize what mediocre means, right?
It was meant to be a relative statement, relative to the rest of the competition he will generally face in tournaments.
I played on the pro tour on another card game. The game was actually very well run, the company just spent way too much money and the game died out. That being said, there was one player that was consistently in the top 2 or 3 of every tournament. He of course was highly followed. Patrick Yap if anyone knows him. Other players would bounce around near the top and make names for themselves. When they did the premier match each round, it was a name player that was involved. That being said, there were qualifying tournaments all over that allowed people to qualify for the main tournament. I think they could institute something like this in hearthstone. Have qualifying tournaments over months allowing people to log in for a weekend for the chance to get a qualifying spot.
I'm sure there are a lot of great players that can't spend the time to hit top legend spots. This would allow them to pick one of maybe 16 weekend/weekday tournaments to fit in for a few hours. Win one of these and get the invite to the big tournament. You may see some amazing things in a set up like this. LIke when my 10 year old son started 6-0 in a 10k tournament and became a star for a short time. There are stories out there waiting to happen.
As for Trump and Reynad, they are very good players. On any given day, they can beat anyone else. There are some decisions in this game, but as long as it is a turn based game, there are only so many scenarios to go through. This limits your options severely. There is usually one maybe two optimal plays per turn and finding the best one is the key. Sometimes taking a risk is the key. Ragnaros with a 1/4 chance to win or else lose is a key example. If he hits you win, if not you lose. Does the better player win? Lot of RNG.
I will never believe that Trump or Reynad getting an invite is undeserving. At least not until there is truly a qualifying system.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count and those that can't.
My point here is not that other people have probably found out this deck themselves (maybe even earlier then Reynad in this case), but that the sample size of popular streamers is so small that when a deck is good and get's noticed, the 1st of these guys gets name of "the" developper of the deck and that this is one of the reasons they are popular and get invited to tournaments.
A good example for this is "Crusher Shaman", he even says in his guide that the idea is from someone else and it still gets called like that.
It seems a relatively simple situation to solve to me (but I could be under thinking it).
Tournaments need the high profile players to generate enough viewership to keep existing sponsors throwing money at them and to interest potential new sponsors. For the scene to evolve tournaments need to be either inviting, or at least giving a chance to all players. The good the bad and the popular.
Currently it seems that the tournament organisers aren't interested in having games with the best possible players, growing the scene or giving exposure to the unknown gems. It seems they are treating it as if they don't expect the popularity to last. They seem to be milking it while they can. It's either very short sighted, or just plain greedy.
I don't see an issue with having your 8-16 invited "celebrity" players in the main tournament with a pre-qualification tournament being played out by anyone else who wants to be involved, or chosen by ladder rank, or whatever constraint you want to place on it. The tournament still gets its headline players who will bring in their guaranteed viewership and the community gets exposed to those who gained their place in the tournament on merit. This does not seem to be a model tournament organisers are interested in though. It seems to be all about a quick turnaround even in the "big" tournaments. 3 days max.
The tournament organisers need to address this or the whole tournament scene will stagnate thanks to their own shortsightedness or greed.
They pretty much include every tournament, except a few of the ones in Asia.
What sort of sample size do you want? The game is still young. Not too mention, other sports utilize such rankings on an even smaller yearly sample size.
The best sample size you can get, with the greatest number of games, is far and away the actual Legend ranking system!
By that token, Trump (for example) is far far better than you were making out. (He switches decks a lot to provide variety to his viewers, so he won't always do as well as he could if he was playing only to win, of course, so his legendary rank will go up and down a lot)
Great article. Trump is a great example in that he is a great streamer ( i watched his streams while the game was in beta alomst every day till i got an invite myself), a terrific Arena player, but a mediocre constructed player.
Mediocre constructed player? You do realize what mediocre means, right?
It was meant to be a relative statement, relative to the rest of the competition he will generally face in tournaments.
And as we saw this weekend, Trump did okay at the HyperX Invitational. He did better than I expected. So, maybe a step up from mediocre so far.
They pretty much include every tournament, except a few of the ones in Asia.
What sort of sample size do you want? The game is still young. Not too mention, other sports utilize such rankings on an even smaller yearly sample size.
The best sample size you can get, with the greatest number of games, is far and away the actual Legend ranking system!
You're just playing complete randoms on ladder. Anybody with a win record greater than 50% can make it to legend. And if you play (and win against) enough rank 1000 legends on ladder, your ELO will eventually rise enough that you're in the Top 16. It's no gauge of anything except perseverance.
You can't really compare ladder and tournament. They are just different. For ladder, you have to build a well rounded deck that have positive win rate against most popular decks. It cannot afford to have any terrible match-up. For tournament, you are free to play any counter deck to a specific deck so surprise picks like Secret Mage, Aggro Warrior, etc. are perfectly viable whereas they would be crushed heavily in ladder or simply ban out hero that you are most weak against.
In all honesty bro your just watching the parts that get streamed the most recent was the HyperX Invitational and it was a 120 something player pool but they only streamed the final 8 or so players Reynad Amaz Forsen TidesofTime RDU all work really hard at the game and they are entertaining streamers they deserve every bit of success. They've had success in other games that they've played.. they all have talent and I don't get why people make these threads blaming talented people for being good and working hard.
On a side note There's only 1 person I would love to see in more tourneys is Hyp3d, hes one of the games best talents and deckmakers but rarely streams.
There should be more open swiss tournaments, or even tournaments with like 8 invited players and 8 players who win a qualifier in the weeks leading up to it. There needs to be “the dream” of making it big by winning a tournament with thousands of people watching.
How do players join blizzcon? top 16 from last season from each server get it? Anyway, i hope Hyp3d and Dog get in and get recognized in tournaments and stuff. When not trying out different builds, they consistently maintain a high spot on ladder every season. And I think a lot of people consider Hyp3d to be the best player in NA actually
Invites are obviously toxic to the competitive scene and I'd imagine most people dislike it. However, the reality is there is not enough money in hearthstone ATM. In a year or two as the prizes get larger invites will be gone and most of these streamers will either stop playing tourneys as the income from streaming is more stable or stop streaming to become a pro HS player. I mean last tourney was for 3k, almost not even worth doing the 128 person qualifier and certainly not worth it for reynad/trump to prep for.
My glowing attribution of Mad Trapper to Reynad was a bit tongue-in-cheek and a bit of a troll. :) All told, I'm not a fan of Reynad at all. I think he's bad for the game in general, simply due to his poor judgement where his public life intersects with his Hearthstone life. And usually he's creating that intersect unnecessarily.
Poetic.
It was meant to be a relative statement, relative to the rest of the competition he will generally face in tournaments.
Poetic.
I played on the pro tour on another card game. The game was actually very well run, the company just spent way too much money and the game died out. That being said, there was one player that was consistently in the top 2 or 3 of every tournament. He of course was highly followed. Patrick Yap if anyone knows him. Other players would bounce around near the top and make names for themselves. When they did the premier match each round, it was a name player that was involved. That being said, there were qualifying tournaments all over that allowed people to qualify for the main tournament. I think they could institute something like this in hearthstone. Have qualifying tournaments over months allowing people to log in for a weekend for the chance to get a qualifying spot.
I'm sure there are a lot of great players that can't spend the time to hit top legend spots. This would allow them to pick one of maybe 16 weekend/weekday tournaments to fit in for a few hours. Win one of these and get the invite to the big tournament. You may see some amazing things in a set up like this. LIke when my 10 year old son started 6-0 in a 10k tournament and became a star for a short time. There are stories out there waiting to happen.
As for Trump and Reynad, they are very good players. On any given day, they can beat anyone else. There are some decisions in this game, but as long as it is a turn based game, there are only so many scenarios to go through. This limits your options severely. There is usually one maybe two optimal plays per turn and finding the best one is the key. Sometimes taking a risk is the key. Ragnaros with a 1/4 chance to win or else lose is a key example. If he hits you win, if not you lose. Does the better player win? Lot of RNG.
I will never believe that Trump or Reynad getting an invite is undeserving. At least not until there is truly a qualifying system.
There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count and those that can't.
A good example for this is "Crusher Shaman", he even says in his guide that the idea is from someone else and it still gets called like that.
It seems a relatively simple situation to solve to me (but I could be under thinking it).
Tournaments need the high profile players to generate enough viewership to keep existing sponsors throwing money at them and to interest potential new sponsors. For the scene to evolve tournaments need to be either inviting, or at least giving a chance to all players. The good the bad and the popular.
Currently it seems that the tournament organisers aren't interested in having games with the best possible players, growing the scene or giving exposure to the unknown gems. It seems they are treating it as if they don't expect the popularity to last. They seem to be milking it while they can. It's either very short sighted, or just plain greedy.
I don't see an issue with having your 8-16 invited "celebrity" players in the main tournament with a pre-qualification tournament being played out by anyone else who wants to be involved, or chosen by ladder rank, or whatever constraint you want to place on it. The tournament still gets its headline players who will bring in their guaranteed viewership and the community gets exposed to those who gained their place in the tournament on merit. This does not seem to be a model tournament organisers are interested in though. It seems to be all about a quick turnaround even in the "big" tournaments. 3 days max.
The tournament organisers need to address this or the whole tournament scene will stagnate thanks to their own shortsightedness or greed.
there are alot of smaller tournies. win a few of those, like tides, bigger tournies will notice. become "popular" for these tournies.
The best sample size you can get, with the greatest number of games, is far and away the actual Legend ranking system!
By that token, Trump (for example) is far far better than you were making out. (He switches decks a lot to provide variety to his viewers, so he won't always do as well as he could if he was playing only to win, of course, so his legendary rank will go up and down a lot)
And as we saw this weekend, Trump did okay at the HyperX Invitational. He did better than I expected. So, maybe a step up from mediocre so far.
Poetic.
You're just playing complete randoms on ladder. Anybody with a win record greater than 50% can make it to legend. And if you play (and win against) enough rank 1000 legends on ladder, your ELO will eventually rise enough that you're in the Top 16. It's no gauge of anything except perseverance.
Poetic.
You can't really compare ladder and tournament. They are just different. For ladder, you have to build a well rounded deck that have positive win rate against most popular decks. It cannot afford to have any terrible match-up. For tournament, you are free to play any counter deck to a specific deck so surprise picks like Secret Mage, Aggro Warrior, etc. are perfectly viable whereas they would be crushed heavily in ladder or simply ban out hero that you are most weak against.
In all honesty bro your just watching the parts that get streamed the most recent was the HyperX Invitational and it was a 120 something player pool but they only streamed the final 8 or so players Reynad Amaz Forsen TidesofTime RDU all work really hard at the game and they are entertaining streamers they deserve every bit of success. They've had success in other games that they've played.. they all have talent and I don't get why people make these threads blaming talented people for being good and working hard.
On a side note There's only 1 person I would love to see in more tourneys is Hyp3d, hes one of the games best talents and deckmakers but rarely streams.
There should be more open swiss tournaments, or even tournaments with like 8 invited players and 8 players who win a qualifier in the weeks leading up to it. There needs to be “the dream” of making it big by winning a tournament with thousands of people watching.
How do players join blizzcon? top 16 from last season from each server get it? Anyway, i hope Hyp3d and Dog get in and get recognized in tournaments and stuff. When not trying out different builds, they consistently maintain a high spot on ladder every season. And I think a lot of people consider Hyp3d to be the best player in NA actually
Invites are obviously toxic to the competitive scene and I'd imagine most people dislike it. However, the reality is there is not enough money in hearthstone ATM. In a year or two as the prizes get larger invites will be gone and most of these streamers will either stop playing tourneys as the income from streaming is more stable or stop streaming to become a pro HS player. I mean last tourney was for 3k, almost not even worth doing the 128 person qualifier and certainly not worth it for reynad/trump to prep for.