I played vs a zoo player playing 2 flame inps and another 1 drop on the first 2 turns. He can then use sargent to trade well even with ancient watcher. If I dont draw hellfire, i am screwed, and with eggs that does not even help. Draked being owled... Yes, I have beaten zoos when I get big taunts up, but good players dont overextend the board, empty their hand or put you in molten range. If they run owls, I feel the MU is at least 50-50, maybe even zoo favored.
That being said, I played 2 games with HandyPandy last night, and smashed 1 druid and 1 warrior, went from rank 7 to 6, good times!
You need to watch some streams or something if you're still losing to Zoo. Like someone said before, mull for Moltens and AOE and keep putting up absurd taunts for them to bash their head into. When I played Handlock to legend a couple seasons ago I went something like 18-5 against Zoo, and 3 of the losses were against Power Overwhelming/Arcane Golem variants that are much worse for Handlock.
I see zoo as slighty favoured as handlock. It can be though if you get a bad start hand (like if you mulligan for mirror). But usually you get enough cards to slow them down and can then end the game with shadow flame clear and/or moltens.
I would say it should be about 60% if not more in your favour.
Mulligan for molten, aoe, cheap minions and soulfire. Care more about denying them early board then about your hand size.
Hunter is pretty much same strategy, but here you need to be super concervative with your life. Like only tap if you dont have a decent play this and next turn. The idea here is to starv them on cards, heal up with jeraxxus or alex and then swing in for win.
After adding alex to my deck (also run jeraxxus) my hunter matchup has been good. You just have to completely change play style compared to vs control.
Ask a good zoo player and a good handlock player about the winrates and try to make them agree... No way a legend zoo player would admit to losing 60% vs handlock or saying the matchup is hard!
You need to watch some streams or something if you're still losing to Zoo. Like someone said before, mull for Moltens and AOE and keep putting up absurd taunts for them to bash their head into. When I played Handlock to legend a couple seasons ago I went something like 18-5 against Zoo, and 3 of the losses were against Power Overwhelming/Arcane Golem variants that are much worse for Handlock.
Today's decks are different. Double taunted up moltens are still strong, but many decks run double owls, one giant is down due to silence, second can be killed and the zoo has freeway again. Also boardclear is not as effective as before due to all the deathrattles. I played on ladder both Zoo and Handlock this season and I can say it is a very tough matchup for the handlock.
The owls aren't the most terrible thing; you have 6 cards that can give taunt, which is more than they have Owls. The max Zoo burst is about 9, so you can Molten almost every game safely. The Moltens are generally the 4th or 5th taunt you present, so if they had Owl they would have used it already.
The proliferation of deathrattles actually helps Handlock more than it hurts it. The deathrattle minions like Haunted Creeper and Harvest Golem have worse stats for their cost up front, and Handlock doesn't care about small-ball trading in the first few turns that those cards excel at. 2 mana 1 power and 3 mana 2 power minions are BETTER for Handlock than Shattered Suns and whatever since they are worse at punching through 9 health taunts. AOE is still excellent - you attack the Creeper or Egg then Shadowflame/Hellfire.
Also, Handlock is a lot harder to play than Zoo so many people play it badly. I've played against rank 2 and legend Handlock players that punted games against me they could have won from the cards I saw.
The owls aren't the most terrible thing; you have 6 cards that can give taunt, which is more than they have Owls. The max Zoo burst is about 9, so you can Molten almost every game safely. The Moltens are generally the 4th or 5th taunt you present, so if they had Owl they would have used it already.
The proliferation of deathrattles actually helps Handlock more than it hurts it. The deathrattle minions like Haunted Creeper and Harvest Golem have worse stats for their cost up front, and Handlock doesn't care about small-ball trading in the first few turns that those cards excel at. 2 mana 1 power and 3 mana 2 power minions are BETTER for Handlock than Shattered Suns and whatever since they are worse at punching through 9 health taunts. AOE is still excellent - you attack the Creeper or Egg then Shadowflame/Hellfire.
Also, Handlock is a lot harder to play than Zoo so many people play it badly. I've played against rank 2 and legend Handlock players that punted games against me they could have won from the cards I saw.
I remember when naxx was released, you posted a handlock decklist which contained eggs. I played that deck a lot and it worked great. At that time zoo was almost like an autowin for me. Also with zoo I could not beat other handlocks, only when I had great luck. This is not the case anymore. Handlock changed a lot (I play Kolento's deck now as many other players). It was a very fast deck before, now my games with handlock are significantly longer, I do not have the burst anymore, it is much more about control. On the other hand zoo got stronger, undertaker and the deathrattle synergie helped zoo a lot, now a hellfire is not enough to clear the board. Out of the 6 taunts, 2 can be played on turn 4 only, but requires target, other 2 needs turn 5. This is way too slow today and also there is no room for spending 4 mana for board clear which does not help much. Also handlock needs luck to draw both moltens in such a short timeframe and you will not tap too much. You can say I'm a bad handlock player and the others I play against with zoo, I do not mind that, but it does not change the fact that the matchup got much more difficult. This is my experience and I'm a better player today then I was when naxx was released.
You might also say that Kolento's deck is not the best, I will test new variations in the upcoming season and my opinion might change, I do not know that yet.
I'm glad you liked my deck then! I ended up being wrong about two things (even though I did very well with that list, ending up in legend top 500):
Sludge Belcher>Sunwalker
Nerubian Egg>other flex cards
As a result of the second change, Hellfire #2 became Shadowflame #2 since you don't need to pop eggs, which is better a lot of time as more damage and since it doesn't hurt you. The flex cards opened up more as a result of the Leeroy nerf, too, which led me to cut Power Overwhelming as well. Today I run Kolento's list -Jaraxxus and one Mortal Coil +Sylvanus and BGH and still love my matchup against Zoo. Soulfire Undertakers as soon as they hit 3 health, play around everything, and stay taunted once you're below 10 health. I don't know, maybe I'm luckier than you.
If you cut a Siphon or BGH for Mind Control Tech (don't laugh, it works and is also great against Shaman) your matchup against Zoo and Hunter will be a little better even. Sunwalker is also still great against them, but ultimately there are too many Black Knights for him to be viable anymore (you can largely play around TBK against decks that might have him by taunting non-giants since your life isn't under as much duress).
It was a good deck back then, it worked much better than the others I tried.
From Kolento's list I will try to cut hellfire and add a creature instead. Many times I felt that I do not have enough threats and have too many reaction cards. I'm not gonna cut Siphon, it is too useful in control matchup. If it does not work out, I might cut one or two Coils, but it is too good against aggro, leper gnomes, webspinners, et can be cleared in the early game without any risk.
Regarding the matchups, I just checked my statistics, out of 8 games with zoo I beat 7 handlocks. With handlock out of 5 games against zoo, I only won 2. This is my season 7 statistics. I know the sample size is small, but this was my experience. Others might have different result or bigger sample size.
Now I start the new season, I will try to learn warrior this month, but will play some warlock games as well.
From Kolento's list I will try to cut hellfire and add a creature instead. Many times I felt that I do not have enough threats and have too many reaction cards. I'm not gonna cut Siphon, it is too useful in control matchup. If it does not work out, I might cut one or two Coils, but it is too good against aggro, leper gnomes, webspinners, et can be cleared in the early game without any risk.
That's excalty my problem atm.too many reaction cards and no minions sometimes.was thinking to add taz'dingo in place of second Siphon
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Famous last words, Mind if i roll Weed? Weed Hoarder, Azeroth
After some slow days, I hit an insane win streak all the way from rank 14-9. My deck had all 4 aoes, which I think is very good right now. 2nd siphon is pretty bad, and even tbk is losing value.
Handlock is a great deck for the ~7 flex cards with which you can really tailor your deck to the meta.
I dont know man may be they have really luck but im not confident at all against zoo
I played vs a zoo player playing 2 flame inps and another 1 drop on the first 2 turns. He can then use sargent to trade well even with ancient watcher. If I dont draw hellfire, i am screwed, and with eggs that does not even help. Draked being owled... Yes, I have beaten zoos when I get big taunts up, but good players dont overextend the board, empty their hand or put you in molten range. If they run owls, I feel the MU is at least 50-50, maybe even zoo favored.
That being said, I played 2 games with HandyPandy last night, and smashed 1 druid and 1 warrior, went from rank 7 to 6, good times!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
try my handlock. it's good against aggro http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/114811-legend-s7-no-to-soulfire-handlock
You need to watch some streams or something if you're still losing to Zoo. Like someone said before, mull for Moltens and AOE and keep putting up absurd taunts for them to bash their head into. When I played Handlock to legend a couple seasons ago I went something like 18-5 against Zoo, and 3 of the losses were against Power Overwhelming/Arcane Golem variants that are much worse for Handlock.
I see zoo as slighty favoured as handlock. It can be though if you get a bad start hand (like if you mulligan for mirror). But usually you get enough cards to slow them down and can then end the game with shadow flame clear and/or moltens.
I would say it should be about 60% if not more in your favour.
Mulligan for molten, aoe, cheap minions and soulfire. Care more about denying them early board then about your hand size.
Hunter is pretty much same strategy, but here you need to be super concervative with your life. Like only tap if you dont have a decent play this and next turn. The idea here is to starv them on cards, heal up with jeraxxus or alex and then swing in for win.
After adding alex to my deck (also run jeraxxus) my hunter matchup has been good. You just have to completely change play style compared to vs control.
Ask a good zoo player and a good handlock player about the winrates and try to make them agree... No way a legend zoo player would admit to losing 60% vs handlock or saying the matchup is hard!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Today's decks are different. Double taunted up moltens are still strong, but many decks run double owls, one giant is down due to silence, second can be killed and the zoo has freeway again. Also boardclear is not as effective as before due to all the deathrattles. I played on ladder both Zoo and Handlock this season and I can say it is a very tough matchup for the handlock.
The owls aren't the most terrible thing; you have 6 cards that can give taunt, which is more than they have Owls. The max Zoo burst is about 9, so you can Molten almost every game safely. The Moltens are generally the 4th or 5th taunt you present, so if they had Owl they would have used it already.
The proliferation of deathrattles actually helps Handlock more than it hurts it. The deathrattle minions like Haunted Creeper and Harvest Golem have worse stats for their cost up front, and Handlock doesn't care about small-ball trading in the first few turns that those cards excel at. 2 mana 1 power and 3 mana 2 power minions are BETTER for Handlock than Shattered Suns and whatever since they are worse at punching through 9 health taunts. AOE is still excellent - you attack the Creeper or Egg then Shadowflame/Hellfire.
Also, Handlock is a lot harder to play than Zoo so many people play it badly. I've played against rank 2 and legend Handlock players that punted games against me they could have won from the cards I saw.
I remember when naxx was released, you posted a handlock decklist which contained eggs. I played that deck a lot and it worked great. At that time zoo was almost like an autowin for me. Also with zoo I could not beat other handlocks, only when I had great luck. This is not the case anymore. Handlock changed a lot (I play Kolento's deck now as many other players). It was a very fast deck before, now my games with handlock are significantly longer, I do not have the burst anymore, it is much more about control. On the other hand zoo got stronger, undertaker and the deathrattle synergie helped zoo a lot, now a hellfire is not enough to clear the board. Out of the 6 taunts, 2 can be played on turn 4 only, but requires target, other 2 needs turn 5. This is way too slow today and also there is no room for spending 4 mana for board clear which does not help much. Also handlock needs luck to draw both moltens in such a short timeframe and you will not tap too much. You can say I'm a bad handlock player and the others I play against with zoo, I do not mind that, but it does not change the fact that the matchup got much more difficult. This is my experience and I'm a better player today then I was when naxx was released.
You might also say that Kolento's deck is not the best, I will test new variations in the upcoming season and my opinion might change, I do not know that yet.
I'm glad you liked my deck then! I ended up being wrong about two things (even though I did very well with that list, ending up in legend top 500):
Sludge Belcher>Sunwalker
Nerubian Egg>other flex cards
As a result of the second change, Hellfire #2 became Shadowflame #2 since you don't need to pop eggs, which is better a lot of time as more damage and since it doesn't hurt you. The flex cards opened up more as a result of the Leeroy nerf, too, which led me to cut Power Overwhelming as well. Today I run Kolento's list -Jaraxxus and one Mortal Coil +Sylvanus and BGH and still love my matchup against Zoo. Soulfire Undertakers as soon as they hit 3 health, play around everything, and stay taunted once you're below 10 health. I don't know, maybe I'm luckier than you.
If you cut a Siphon or BGH for Mind Control Tech (don't laugh, it works and is also great against Shaman) your matchup against Zoo and Hunter will be a little better even. Sunwalker is also still great against them, but ultimately there are too many Black Knights for him to be viable anymore (you can largely play around TBK against decks that might have him by taunting non-giants since your life isn't under as much duress).
It was a good deck back then, it worked much better than the others I tried.
From Kolento's list I will try to cut hellfire and add a creature instead. Many times I felt that I do not have enough threats and have too many reaction cards. I'm not gonna cut Siphon, it is too useful in control matchup. If it does not work out, I might cut one or two Coils, but it is too good against aggro, leper gnomes, webspinners, et can be cleared in the early game without any risk.
Regarding the matchups, I just checked my statistics, out of 8 games with zoo I beat 7 handlocks. With handlock out of 5 games against zoo, I only won 2. This is my season 7 statistics. I know the sample size is small, but this was my experience. Others might have different result or bigger sample size.
Now I start the new season, I will try to learn warrior this month, but will play some warlock games as well.
That's excalty my problem atm.too many reaction cards and no minions sometimes.was thinking to add taz'dingo in place of second Siphon
Famous last words, Mind if i roll Weed? Weed Hoarder, Azeroth
My decks: please, take a look if you want- a lot of dust-free decks-feedback more than welcome
http://www.hearthpwn.com/members/akasumi/decks?sort=-viewcount
Blizzard's news portal in Greeks wastedmurlocgang.gr
After some slow days, I hit an insane win streak all the way from rank 14-9. My deck had all 4 aoes, which I think is very good right now. 2nd siphon is pretty bad, and even tbk is losing value.
Handlock is a great deck for the ~7 flex cards with which you can really tailor your deck to the meta.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide