I think one possible solution without removing completely the rng factor is knowing what totem will come out next.
there are different ways to implement it:
- the next totem to be summoned is set (each time at random)and both players know what it is(by hovering the hero power)
- the nest totem is rng generated at the start of the turn an you know which one it is by hovering the hero power.
the first solution gives info for the opponent too until you cast it and will not change until you actually use it.
the second version you can simply skip using one turn waiting for the good outcome. So basically this version would be really better for shaman.
i think that if you want to buff the shaman overall(because let's face it, there is a reason if in tournament is rarely played) you could go with the second version.
if you think it does not deserve such a buff(or you do not want to address it throughh hero power improvement) you can go with the first version
You're saying my idea is bad because.. the game has some RNG. And some RNG is good because it "balances out" non-RNG.
But my hypothetical RNG situations are "really stupid" for some reason because.. you decided that they are.
Why would it be more stupid for arcane intellect to draw 1-3 cards? Who knows. It averages out to the same card, but it's random instead of not random.
Your "hypothetical RNG situations" are bad because hunter hero power dealing 0-4 damage has the chance to do nothing. The Shaman's hero power will ALWAYS summon a totem. It isn't even close to a fair comparison. Regardless, You don't even need a comparison to get your point across! It's making you come off as arrogant. I agree with the point you're trying to make but you're doing it very, very poorly.
Unfortunately, a set order will never be implemented, so this whole discussion is moot anyways.
You're saying my idea is bad because.. the game has some RNG. And some RNG is good because it "balances out" non-RNG.
But my hypothetical RNG situations are "really stupid" for some reason because.. you decided that they are.
Why would it be more stupid for arcane intellect to draw 1-3 cards? Who knows. It averages out to the same card, but it's random instead of not random.
Your "hypothetical RNG situations" are bad because hunter hero power dealing 0-4 damage has the chance to do nothing. The Shaman's hero power will ALWAYS summon a totem. It isn't even close to a fair comparison. Regardless, You don't even need a comparison to get your point across! It's making you come off as arrogant. I agree with the point you're trying to make but you're doing it very, very poorly.
Unfortunately, a set order will never be implemented, so this whole discussion is moot anyways.
Goddamnit, you people... Yeah, in contrast to having a chance doing nothing, the Shaman totems ACTUALLY HARM YOU because of bad RNG.
Have you ever summoned a Healing Totem when your opponent has a Northshire Cleric on the board? How about a Searing Totem into Acolyte of Pain? Sometimes I don't want a Taunt totem, because I actually want my enemy to kill one of my minions because it fits my plan. Or sometimes I just don't want another useless Searing Totem that just gets hero powered by 4 out of 9 classes.
THOSE are the shitty RNG situations the OP talks about, and it's absolutely legit. Nobody in their right mind would summon a Searing Totem against an Acolyte, just like a Paladin won't use his hero power in this situation. The difference is, Shaman is 100% RNG in this matter and sometimes you get fucked pretty hard. And to be fair, it's those situations where a hero power doing nothing (Steady Shot dealing 0 damage instead of 1-4) would actually be better, if one knew it in advance. But you can't.
Oh, and just as a reminder, I don't want to remove RNG from the hero power as said before. But I do acknowledge that it's a very bad design in very real situations.
As someone who only plays shaman, here is my two cents.
The random totem thing is rationalized due to their relative power. They are bodies that provide really strong effects.
Taunt Totem: 2 stats + Taunt
Spellpower Totem : 2 stats + Spell power (and frankly it's as good as a taunt. Who lets a shaman keep that thing? No one good that's for sure)
Healing Totem: 2 stats + AoE minion heal (protects minions against pinging classes like Mage/Druid/Rogue. Solid ability, even after the face-heal nerf)
Searing Totem: 2 stats + ....nothing....
Shaman players, tell me the last time you thought to yourself "common RNG! I really need to see a Searing Totem here!" when rolling for a totem? Never. Each other totem has legitimate uses and times where you really could use it. "Every tool has a job" right? To keep with the topic at hand, all 4 totems need to have their uses if the RNG factor needs to stay. But Searing Totem is by far the worst totem and is no better than a Silver Hand Knight (and Paladins are not restricted to just 4 hero power tokens like we are).
My suggestion is to tweak Searing Totem and bring it in line with our other 3. The other three totems follow a "2 stats + effect" format, so I have 2 options I'd like to put forth.
1) Give Searing Totem an extra stat point to compensate for no effect. A 1/2 would be preferable, but a 2/1 could have it's uses while still being weak to ping.
-or-
2) Give Searing Totem an effect. Give it Charge.
I'd love to see Searing Totem gain charge. It brings the totem in line power wise with the other 3, and the RNG factor with the totems would matter less because all 4 totems would have clear uses and benefits. "Every tool has a job".
If the Shaman hero power was ever to be changed, it needs to start with Searing Totem.
IMO all the totem's should be combined in to 1 and the game should just limit you to 1 hero power totem at a time, sort of like how Rogue can no longer build weapon durability by hero powering while they already have a Wicked Knife, Shaman could be changed to simply summon a singular decent totem that they can re-apply every turn.
IMO all the totem's should be combined in to 1 and the game should just limit you to 1 hero power totem at a time, sort of like how Rogue can no longer build weapon durability by hero powering while they already have a Wicked Knife, Shaman could be changed to simply summon a singular decent totem that they can re-apply every turn.
It's balanced by rng because all of the outcomes are above average (unless you get Searing), similar to how all of the Animal Companions are above average. You get more than usual value, but it's random to make up for that. It's usually great, but sometimes you get the wrong totem/beast for the situation and it sucks.
It's balanced by rng because all of the outcomes are above average (unless you get Searing), similar to how all of the Animal Companions are above average. You get more than usual value, but it's random to make up for that. It's usually great, but sometimes you get the wrong totem/beast for the situation and it sucks.
That's exactly why Searing needs a slight buff. There isn't a single bad Beast with Animal Companion and they are all above average in some way. Searing Totem is just weak. I would love Searing to get Charge. I think giving Shaman a way to ping would really change the way we would look at the class
It's balanced by rng because all of the outcomes are above average (unless you get Searing), similar to how all of the Animal Companions are above average. You get more than usual value, but it's random to make up for that. It's usually great, but sometimes you get the wrong totem/beast for the situation and it sucks.
It's not above average. Minions with an attack of 0 have higher stats than others or additional effects.
Nat Pagle and Nerubian Egg and other cards have HUGE effects due to their lack of attack.
Of course Shaman is balanced around this with cards like Rockbiter or Flametongue, but so are other classes, see buffs for Paladins to work with their 1/1s or weapon-improving spells for Rogue. It's certainly anything but 'above average'.
That's the concept of ALL hero powers. A mage wouldn't put a 2 mana, deal 1 damage spell in his deck. A paladin wouldn't put a bunch of 1/1/1 minions in his deck, etc.
The fact that Shieldbearer and Target Dummy aren't used is not important to the slightest. I just wanted to show how the stat distribution works.
How is Searing weak? It's literally the paladin hero power, which has always been considered fairly strong. You can't really compare to Animal Companion because that's a played card, it needs to not have "a single bad beast" or there would be no reason to include it in a deck. For any hero powers that have a comparable card, the value is basically 0 to compensate for the fact that it's reusable/doesn't use up a card. A basic 1/1 is 0, a 0/2 taunt is 0, Moonfire (1 damage) is 0. A 1/1 with charge exists, and it costs 1, therefore Searing would be OP.
I think something you are missing is the fact that "random" is pretty much the Shaman theme. The Shaman class had more random spells and effects than most classes before GvG rolled around. Its part of what makes him fun. You have the chance to roll high roll low, summon the totem you need. Its all in their flavor. Elemental Control (shaman's theme) is chaotic and wild.
On top of that you're missing the fact that Hearthstone's major gimmick that sets them aside is the utilization of random. Sure it would be nice to see some reliable Removal from shaman that doesn't also mean Overload and random. As for the totems, if they are the only deciding factor between living and dying. You already lost.
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How is Searing weak? It's literally the paladin hero power, which has always been considered fairly strong. You can't really compare to Animal Companion because that's a played card, it needs to not have "a single bad beast" or there would be no reason to include it in a deck. For any hero powers that have a comparable card, the value is basically 0 to compensate for the fact that it's reusable/doesn't use up a card. A basic 1/1 is 0, a 0/2 taunt is 0, Moonfire (1 damage) is 0. A 1/1 with charge exists, and it costs 1, therefore Searing would be OP.
Life Tap wants a word with this.
Also Pallys can get a bunch of those little 1/1 tokens. Shaman can't. Their searing totem is inherently weaker than the pallys hero power because of the limitations on totems that don't exist with Silver Hand Knights.
...would be super interesting. You could choose to use it, or just make the RNG for your other totems more consistant. Of course it dies to every aoe in the game but that's besides the point.
EDIT: Also, it is a new card. A 1/1 charge is basically a boar. There aren't any 1/1 stealth characters, except patient assassin which for all intents and purposes is a 100/1 stealth.
choosing which exact totem we want would be pretty awesome to be honest.. would make the heropower so much more reliable and you would totem up according to the matchup/board/hand you get which is also very nice and flexible.. also i dont think it hurts game balance becouse shaman is already kinda uderdog and the only class with random hero power at all..
also everyone comparing searing totem to paladin heropower - yes they are pretty much the same but in shaman u have 25% chance to get it on empty totem board not 100% (not only that but you cant have more than 1 searing totem at a time).. also there is not a single reliable worthy card created yet that buffs your totems only (Like quartermaster buffs the silver hand recruits) .. totemic might sucks and isnt even worth a slot most of the time
shaman has sooo much potential i have no idea why the class dont get any love from blizzard at all..
edit: when u start thinking of it you can clearly see blizzard doing very bad job at some hero power design (shaman and hunter for example) ... and it's been 1 year and these stuff havent been changed which pretty much means they will not change it any time soon.. it makes shaman frustrating rng dependant class (no other class rely on rng as much as shaman which is just not healthy for the class in general) and it makes hunter straighforward and encourages face playstyle (which is also not healthy at all)
After reading the arguments and having played to a gold shaman myself I really do feel like the shaman hero power needs an adjustment. The switch from RNG hero power to a selective one (with the limit of 1 each totem) would be the easiest, and most fair fix. Having to AOE down a mech mages' full board with Lightning Storm that is RNG already then also needing to hope for a 25% chance of rolling the spell power totem just makes the game awful. It turns their only AOE into a 12.5% chance to actually work as opposed to just the 50% chance that the card inherently has.
There is a reason Shaman is considered the worst class right now, not just in ladder but also in competitive. Tournements have become stale to watch because everyone brings the same few classes, Druid and Warlock are auto includes, then pick 2 between Warrior, Paladin, Mage, and Hunter, but this is another discussion entirely. The reason shaman sees no play is the over reliance on perfect RNG to work at all, and even when it does, oh shit overload cuz that random ass spell combo that had 12% chance to work now limits my next turns pool. ITS BULLSHIT BLIZZARD!!! BALANCE THAT SHIT PLEASE!!!
Selecting the totem would be much much too strong. Just having the totems appear in order is, in my mind, a perfectly fine fix to the power.
then what is the order you would use? this is veeery important and i really can't think of an balanced order right now.. also this would mean that at any point in the game when you dont have any totems left (aoe or something) you will get them in exact order which is very weak and ur opponent can deny you any decent totem usage this way (honestly totems in order would be weaker than the current random totems)
and interesting concept would be if you can choose your totem but you can't use the same totem 2 turns in a row.. that would make it spicy, interesting and balanced (no taunt totem every turn etc.) also it means u can use one out of 3 totems every turn effectively (unless u didnt totem up last turn or it's the first totem of the game) also consider the fact that if totems survive you get less and less choices every turn which pretty much makes it a little bit better and more flexible than random totem but not OP at all
i think the class already suffers from very random spells and overload .. having random totems is huge tempo loss most of the time and unless you are ahead the totems might hurt you more or be useless most of the time rather than acomplish anything at all
As someone who only plays shaman, here is my two cents.
The random totem thing is rationalized due to their relative power. They are bodies that provide really strong effects.
Taunt Totem: 2 stats + Taunt
Spellpower Totem : 2 stats + Spell power (and frankly it's as good as a taunt. Who lets a shaman keep that thing? No one good that's for sure)
Healing Totem: 2 stats + AoE minion heal (protects minions against pinging classes like Mage/Druid/Rogue. Solid ability, even after the face-heal nerf)
Searing Totem: 2 stats + ....nothing....
Shaman players, tell me the last time you thought to yourself "common RNG! I really need to see a Searing Totem here!" when rolling for a totem? Never. Each other totem has legitimate uses and times where you really could use it. "Every tool has a job" right? To keep with the topic at hand, all 4 totems need to have their uses if the RNG factor needs to stay. But Searing Totem is by far the worst totem and is no better than a Silver Hand Knight (and Paladins are not restricted to just 4 hero power tokens like we are).
My suggestion is to tweak Searing Totem and bring it in line with our other 3. The other three totems follow a "2 stats + effect" format, so I have 2 options I'd like to put forth.
1) Give Searing Totem an extra stat point to compensate for no effect. A 1/2 would be preferable, but a 2/1 could have it's uses while still being weak to ping.
-or-
2) Give Searing Totem an effect. Give it Charge.
I'd love to see Searing Totem gain charge. It brings the totem in line power wise with the other 3, and the RNG factor with the totems would matter less because all 4 totems would have clear uses and benefits. "Every tool has a job".
If the Shaman hero power was ever to be changed, it needs to start with Searing Totem.
I think one possible solution without removing completely the rng factor is knowing what totem will come out next.
there are different ways to implement it:
- the next totem to be summoned is set (each time at random)and both players know what it is(by hovering the hero power)
- the nest totem is rng generated at the start of the turn an you know which one it is by hovering the hero power.
the first solution gives info for the opponent too until you cast it and will not change until you actually use it.
the second version you can simply skip using one turn waiting for the good outcome. So basically this version would be really better for shaman.
i think that if you want to buff the shaman overall(because let's face it, there is a reason if in tournament is rarely played) you could go with the second version.
if you think it does not deserve such a buff(or you do not want to address it throughh hero power improvement) you can go with the first version
Your "hypothetical RNG situations" are bad because hunter hero power dealing 0-4 damage has the chance to do nothing. The Shaman's hero power will ALWAYS summon a totem. It isn't even close to a fair comparison. Regardless, You don't even need a comparison to get your point across! It's making you come off as arrogant. I agree with the point you're trying to make but you're doing it very, very poorly.
Unfortunately, a set order will never be implemented, so this whole discussion is moot anyways.
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Goddamnit, you people... Yeah, in contrast to having a chance doing nothing, the Shaman totems ACTUALLY HARM YOU because of bad RNG.
Have you ever summoned a Healing Totem when your opponent has a Northshire Cleric on the board? How about a Searing Totem into Acolyte of Pain? Sometimes I don't want a Taunt totem, because I actually want my enemy to kill one of my minions because it fits my plan. Or sometimes I just don't want another useless Searing Totem that just gets hero powered by 4 out of 9 classes.
THOSE are the shitty RNG situations the OP talks about, and it's absolutely legit. Nobody in their right mind would summon a Searing Totem against an Acolyte, just like a Paladin won't use his hero power in this situation. The difference is, Shaman is 100% RNG in this matter and sometimes you get fucked pretty hard. And to be fair, it's those situations where a hero power doing nothing (Steady Shot dealing 0 damage instead of 1-4) would actually be better, if one knew it in advance. But you can't.
Oh, and just as a reminder, I don't want to remove RNG from the hero power as said before. But I do acknowledge that it's a very bad design in very real situations.
As someone who only plays shaman, here is my two cents.
The random totem thing is rationalized due to their relative power. They are bodies that provide really strong effects.
Taunt Totem: 2 stats + Taunt
Spellpower Totem : 2 stats + Spell power (and frankly it's as good as a taunt. Who lets a shaman keep that thing? No one good that's for sure)
Healing Totem: 2 stats + AoE minion heal (protects minions against pinging classes like Mage/Druid/Rogue. Solid ability, even after the face-heal nerf)
Searing Totem: 2 stats + ....nothing....
Shaman players, tell me the last time you thought to yourself "common RNG! I really need to see a Searing Totem here!" when rolling for a totem? Never. Each other totem has legitimate uses and times where you really could use it. "Every tool has a job" right? To keep with the topic at hand, all 4 totems need to have their uses if the RNG factor needs to stay. But Searing Totem is by far the worst totem and is no better than a Silver Hand Knight (and Paladins are not restricted to just 4 hero power tokens like we are).
My suggestion is to tweak Searing Totem and bring it in line with our other 3. The other three totems follow a "2 stats + effect" format, so I have 2 options I'd like to put forth.
1) Give Searing Totem an extra stat point to compensate for no effect. A 1/2 would be preferable, but a 2/1 could have it's uses while still being weak to ping.
-or-
2) Give Searing Totem an effect. Give it Charge.
I'd love to see Searing Totem gain charge. It brings the totem in line power wise with the other 3, and the RNG factor with the totems would matter less because all 4 totems would have clear uses and benefits. "Every tool has a job".
If the Shaman hero power was ever to be changed, it needs to start with Searing Totem.
Agreed. Giving searing totem charge would be amazing.
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
IMO all the totem's should be combined in to 1 and the game should just limit you to 1 hero power totem at a time, sort of like how Rogue can no longer build weapon durability by hero powering while they already have a Wicked Knife, Shaman could be changed to simply summon a singular decent totem that they can re-apply every turn.
[img]http://www.hearthcards.net/cards/80ed9b9c.png[/img]
And nerf Flametongue in the proccess? I'd rather not see this happen to the only playable card that meaningfully synergises with our totems
It's balanced by rng because all of the outcomes are above average (unless you get Searing), similar to how all of the Animal Companions are above average. You get more than usual value, but it's random to make up for that. It's usually great, but sometimes you get the wrong totem/beast for the situation and it sucks.
That's exactly why Searing needs a slight buff. There isn't a single bad Beast with Animal Companion and they are all above average in some way. Searing Totem is just weak. I would love Searing to get Charge. I think giving Shaman a way to ping would really change the way we would look at the class
It's not above average. Minions with an attack of 0 have higher stats than others or additional effects.
Examples?
Target Dummy 2 points of stats + taunt : Wisp 2 points of stats
Shieldbearer 4 points of stats + taunt : Goldshire Footman 3 points of stats + taunt
Nat Pagle and Nerubian Egg and other cards have HUGE effects due to their lack of attack.
Of course Shaman is balanced around this with cards like Rockbiter or Flametongue, but so are other classes, see buffs for Paladins to work with their 1/1s or weapon-improving spells for Rogue. It's certainly anything but 'above average'.
That's the concept of ALL hero powers. A mage wouldn't put a 2 mana, deal 1 damage spell in his deck. A paladin wouldn't put a bunch of 1/1/1 minions in his deck, etc.
The fact that Shieldbearer and Target Dummy aren't used is not important to the slightest. I just wanted to show how the stat distribution works.
How is Searing weak? It's literally the paladin hero power, which has always been considered fairly strong. You can't really compare to Animal Companion because that's a played card, it needs to not have "a single bad beast" or there would be no reason to include it in a deck. For any hero powers that have a comparable card, the value is basically 0 to compensate for the fact that it's reusable/doesn't use up a card. A basic 1/1 is 0, a 0/2 taunt is 0, Moonfire (1 damage) is 0. A 1/1 with charge exists, and it costs 1, therefore Searing would be OP.
I think something you are missing is the fact that "random" is pretty much the Shaman theme. The Shaman class had more random spells and effects than most classes before GvG rolled around. Its part of what makes him fun. You have the chance to roll high roll low, summon the totem you need. Its all in their flavor. Elemental Control (shaman's theme) is chaotic and wild.
On top of that you're missing the fact that Hearthstone's major gimmick that sets them aside is the utilization of random. Sure it would be nice to see some reliable Removal from shaman that doesn't also mean Overload and random. As for the totems, if they are the only deciding factor between living and dying. You already lost.
Doctor Who? Dr. Boom. Timelord and Friend of All Daleks(Boom Bot).
Life Tap wants a word with this.
Also Pallys can get a bunch of those little 1/1 tokens. Shaman can't. Their searing totem is inherently weaker than the pallys hero power because of the limitations on totems that don't exist with Silver Hand Knights.
Searing Totem: 1/1 Stealth
...would be super interesting. You could choose to use it, or just make the RNG for your other totems more consistant. Of course it dies to every aoe in the game but that's besides the point.
EDIT: Also, it is a new card. A 1/1 charge is basically a boar. There aren't any 1/1 stealth characters, except patient assassin which for all intents and purposes is a 100/1 stealth.
choosing which exact totem we want would be pretty awesome to be honest.. would make the heropower so much more reliable and you would totem up according to the matchup/board/hand you get which is also very nice and flexible.. also i dont think it hurts game balance becouse shaman is already kinda uderdog and the only class with random hero power at all..
also everyone comparing searing totem to paladin heropower - yes they are pretty much the same but in shaman u have 25% chance to get it on empty totem board not 100% (not only that but you cant have more than 1 searing totem at a time).. also there is not a single reliable worthy card created yet that buffs your totems only (Like quartermaster buffs the silver hand recruits) .. totemic might sucks and isnt even worth a slot most of the time
shaman has sooo much potential i have no idea why the class dont get any love from blizzard at all..
edit: when u start thinking of it you can clearly see blizzard doing very bad job at some hero power design (shaman and hunter for example) ... and it's been 1 year and these stuff havent been changed which pretty much means they will not change it any time soon.. it makes shaman frustrating rng dependant class (no other class rely on rng as much as shaman which is just not healthy for the class in general) and it makes hunter straighforward and encourages face playstyle (which is also not healthy at all)
Time is money, friend.
After reading the arguments and having played to a gold shaman myself I really do feel like the shaman hero power needs an adjustment. The switch from RNG hero power to a selective one (with the limit of 1 each totem) would be the easiest, and most fair fix. Having to AOE down a mech mages' full board with Lightning Storm that is RNG already then also needing to hope for a 25% chance of rolling the spell power totem just makes the game awful. It turns their only AOE into a 12.5% chance to actually work as opposed to just the 50% chance that the card inherently has.
There is a reason Shaman is considered the worst class right now, not just in ladder but also in competitive. Tournements have become stale to watch because everyone brings the same few classes, Druid and Warlock are auto includes, then pick 2 between Warrior, Paladin, Mage, and Hunter, but this is another discussion entirely. The reason shaman sees no play is the over reliance on perfect RNG to work at all, and even when it does, oh shit overload cuz that random ass spell combo that had 12% chance to work now limits my next turns pool. ITS BULLSHIT BLIZZARD!!! BALANCE THAT SHIT PLEASE!!!
Selecting the totem would be much much too strong.
Just having the totems appear in order is, in my mind, a perfectly fine fix to the power.
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then what is the order you would use? this is veeery important and i really can't think of an balanced order right now.. also this would mean that at any point in the game when you dont have any totems left (aoe or something) you will get them in exact order which is very weak and ur opponent can deny you any decent totem usage this way (honestly totems in order would be weaker than the current random totems)
and interesting concept would be if you can choose your totem but you can't use the same totem 2 turns in a row.. that would make it spicy, interesting and balanced (no taunt totem every turn etc.) also it means u can use one out of 3 totems every turn effectively (unless u didnt totem up last turn or it's the first totem of the game)
also consider the fact that if totems survive you get less and less choices every turn which pretty much makes it a little bit better and more flexible than random totem but not OP at all
i think the class already suffers from very random spells and overload .. having random totems is huge tempo loss most of the time and unless you are ahead the totems might hurt you more or be useless most of the time rather than acomplish anything at all
Time is money, friend.
This .
OverloadShaman : http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/217213-brm-new-take-on-overload-shaman