Ben Brode Discusses the Warsong Commander Nerf
A new Designer Insights vlog from Ben Brode discussing Warsong Commander has made it to PlayHearthstone's YouTube channel. We've recapped and embedded the video below.
Warsong Commander now reads (in the next patch): Your Charge minions have +1 Attack.
Quote from Ben Brode
- Warriors are already pretty low on the Arena tier list, and this change does take them down further. This will have to be addressed in future sets.
- Charge and Direct Damage are two of the least fun things in Hearthstone. You can't react to them, you must be proactive.
- They wanted to make the card less complicated because it is in the basic set.
- Warsong Commander was nerfed instead of Grim Patron or Frothing Berserker because the biggest issue now, and going forward, was Warsong.
- It was important to keep the identity of the card intact as much as possible.
- They tried 30 or 40 different designs to see which ones felt the best for the card.
- Dreadsteed was originally going to be released in Naxxramas as a Neutral Minion. Warsong Commander prevented that due to their interaction.
Neutral Spells - Card Design Competition Finalist Voting
For this week's Card Design competition, contestants ventured into contested territory as they were tasked with introducing Neutral Spells to the game... Okay, so creating a cute, punny ad for this competition theme is pretty difficult, but thankfully all of our finalists are more creative than I am, so come visit us over at the Finalist Poll Topic and vote for your favorite submissions!
For once... I actually kind of agree with... BEN BRODE? (Not the nerf, but what he was saying)
brb, universe imploding
If only Dreadsteed were neutral... think of the possibilities! It could've been insane in Shaman! It could've made Shaman a thing! As for agreeing with him, I think the nerf was overdone. I think minions with 3 or less attack have charge, so a 4 attack frothing would lose charge. However, if Warsong kept the charge mechanic, it also seriously limits card design. I think that when they were designing TGT, knowing Grim Patron's power, they intentionally were "playing around Warsong" so maybe now we'll see some really awesome, unique cards with 3 or less attack.
Of all the examples to give Brode didn't explain the reasoning why rechanging it back to the bugged form was discarded as an option. Simply being minions played from your hand with 3 or less attack gain charge and not minions that are summoned onto the field such as Grim Patron trigger, Haunted Creeper trigger, Dreadsteed Trigger etc.
But that doesn't stop Frothing Berserker.
I feel the fact that this would be Grim Patron's only win condition is a fair enough balance change. Additionally you have to calculate the fact that Grim Patrons damage wouldn't apply on the same turn anymore as only the first Patron gains charge, and the rest do not.
It brings the deck inline, and doesn't completely destroy the archetype along with Math Warrior, Combo Warrior, Pyrosmith Warrior, and other future decks.
For an explanation of the logic. Yes Patron still has the threat of filling the board with cheap Patrons, but
1. Patron can no longer full board clear simply by ramming Warsonged Patrons into 2 attack or less minions to spawn more patrons. Also simple Patron counters are now very similar to Math Warriors and combo warriors counters. Multiple taunt minions.
2. Patron can't be used as a mini burst combo in of itself since only the first Patron is given charge. Giving the opponent a turn to counter. Similar to Muster for Battle but a lot slower.
Yes, but the problem still remains: the more Patrons you spawn, the more minions your Whirlwind effects can damage, and the more attack your Berserker can gain. People are racking up combos to get Berserkers (sometimes two at one) to get lethal, and it's near impossible to play around. Patron might not get the charge, but in that scenario, it wouldn't matter.
hearthstone with days counted
«They tried 30 or 40 different designs to see which ones felt the best for the card.»
Whenever a minon with a charge is summoned, gain +1 attack. Kappa
Honestly, I'd rather see them "over-nerf" a card than do nothing and leave it broken. Yeah, it makes Warsong unplayable, but Patron Warrior needed to be de-powered in some way.
Remove Brode, save Hearthstone.
change to face hunter comes together with nerf of druid 14 damage 2 cards combo - between 30th and 31th February next year.
or derpadin for that matter?
Dang, Brode handles these situations well. I'm so glad we get the inside story of these nerfs and nerving warsong was definitely the right choice.
You should of talked to the community Ben Brode, they had way better ideas on how to 'nerf' the warsong commander card.
There are only 15 cards currently with charge that a Warrior can utilize. 5 of those cards are Legendary.
After watching the video I don't understand their logic of how the commander is hoped to be used now. They could have easily just put a restriction that locked the charge to minions with 3 or less attack so when buffed they lose the charge. What a waste.
If they did that, they would still have had a problem releasing Dreadsteed as a Neutral minion. Although I agree that making Warsong a worse Raid Leader probably wasn't the right move.
But there is NO reason considering that now since Dreadsteed is already out and its ability is unique, is there? Also if they don't like charge why are they ok with 14 damage 2 cards druid combo on empty board? or the fact it can be buffed to 22 with innervate and 2nd SR? As much as I like Ben I have to say that some of his reasoning is kinda weird ...
Up to that how interactive are boombots or mysterious challger drawing and at the same time putting into play up to 5 secrets? skill level of using those cards is next to nonexistent while the proactive part of those is at the same level as with patrons ...
Yet with that Druid setup, you're still losing the minions summoned with Force of Nature, and it costs 9 mana to play. The typical way WSC/GP is played is to have at least one tick of Thaurissan's effect to make the whole thing cost 6 mana, and to boot you've also got a good chance to clear the board with that mana too while keeping every single minion on yours.
but its at least 5 cards in 2 turns, since there is a turn preparation with Thaurissan. Druid combo is 2 cards, additionally buffs any minion on board and can be sped up by both Thaurissan, wild grows or innervates. And if you want to argue with 1 thick of Thaurissan then we have FoN + SR + SR from hand (22dmg), which can be used faster with innervates than WSC/GP (top non atacking WSC + 18 dmg from patrons since you mentioned that) combo which is actually less damage. GPW OTK was done by FB not patrons ;)
Druid works on the same principle but it is not played in that way because he has slower draws than warrior with up to 8 cards draw from damaged hero+minions.
Dreadsteed came out, but not as a neutral card like originally intended. Keep in mind that this means all future cards that have gimmicks like Dreadsteed that could be abused with charge can no longer be neutral, which severely limits neutral minion design options -- that was the reason given, was it not?
Warsong is fundamentally different than Force of Nature in that it can potentially affect a lot of cards:
1. Grim Patron turns from a slow card that must slowly flood the board and wait a turn to attack into an epic board clear.
2. Frothing Berserker turns from an easily removed ramping minion into a potential 30+ damage charging minion.
3. Dreadsteed turns from a measly 1/1 that needs to be combo'd with a card each time into an instant complete board clear that still leaves an invincible 1/1 on the field.
Force of Nature is terrifying but it doesn't interact with cards in such a radical way. Also, it costs 6 Mana -- there's a reason nobody thinks Tundra Rhino is OP, even though it gives all beasts charge without limitations. Its combo potential is severely limited by the mana cost, as opposed to a 3-mana "All your deadliest minions get charge forever".
Also, when we're debating please don't change the subject to something like Boom Bots or whatnot -- we're talking about Warsong Commander here.
True the top damage a board full of 6 GPs and the static WSC can do is 18, but that still only took 2-3 cards at most. To get that 22 damage from a druid, you still have to use at least 4 cards that you've had to all obtained prior to using them (which is much harder than 2-3 thanks to the RNG gods) And as I stated, those GPs and the WSC are still on your board after using them so long as they all survived attacking whereas your board is clear as a druid. And if you toss a 4th card into the ET/WSC/GP mix in Frothing Berserker, there's a chance to do far, far more damage than just that 18 damage for the same card cost as the druid FaN/SC/Innervate/SC combo.