Hearthpwn

Full Murloc rush.

Well said. I think your post was a lot more articulate than mine in explaining the rationale for why Loot Hoarder is not strictly inferior to Novice Engineer.

Loot Hoarder is better against certain classes than Novice Engineer because the 2/1 body is better than the 1/2 body and the card draw effect is directly comparable. Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

You insisting that Novice Engineer is flat out better is simply inaccurate. Could it be better in more situations than Loot Hoarder? Maybe, probably, but because of the way card games work, it's never going to be the directly better card as long as there's one scenario where Loot Hoarder outperforms it.

Novice Engineer is going to be better than Loot Hoarder a lot of the time, but the point I'm trying to make is Novice Engineer to Loot Hoarder is NOT the same as Voidwalker to Goldshire Footman. It's not a direct upgrade. They are both cards with extremely similar power levels that sport slightly different rules for drawing and a different power/toughness setup.

Quote from Foo18 »

I'd say novice is better against paladin. It kills two paladin hero powers for just 2 mana. I'd also say it's more important what class you are playing, rather than the class you are playing against. You can't build a deck around who you are playing against. 

I would be inclined to agree with your reasoning. I was looking at removal options (and how few paladin have) when I made those judgments, but you're probably right here. The point of my post was to illustrate that neither card is outright better because this game is not in a vacuum. :)

This is just plain sad. This individual scenario theorycrafting is almost entirely pointless. The only constructive way to compare the power level of the cards is to examine what classes they're better against.

In general:

Novice Engineer is better against Rogues, Mages, Druids. (All classes with 1 damage hero power)

Loot Hoarder is better against Paladins, Hunters, and Warlocks. (All classes where the 2/1 body is more relevant. Paladins have no removal option earlier than turn 4 not counting Sword of Justice. Hunters only really have Arcane Shot. Warlocks have Mortal Coil, but most people are still running aggro lists without it which makes Loot Hoarder better for trading purposes.)

Quote from Foo18 »

Quote from keennyy »

The same can be said for many other non-legendary cards though. Raging Worgen. Knife Juggler. Questing Adventurer. All of these need to be removed ASAP in constructed and arena. Because of that, I don't think the level of "urgency to remove" commanded by a card necessarily directly relates to being overpowered.

As I said earlier, the closest thing you can compare Ysera to, in my opinion, is Nat and Mana Tide. They're all game-winners if allowed to sit around. Their ability to win you the game is just throttled by how much mana they cost.

You see a common trend with most of the cards you listed? They can be silenced and be pretty worthless. Ysera has to be killed. Worgen doesn't have to be dealth with unless it's a mage or you have a 2 or 1 attack on your board, and knife doesn't have to be dealt with either. Mana tide, nat and questing can all just be silenced

@DonFurr Just because it doesn't work in all decks doesn't mean it's balanced. Being silenced AND killing 2/3 minions is a REALLY good trade. 

Silence against Ysera is a lot better than you give credit. Would you pay 9 mana for a 4/12 vanilla creature? At the stage of the game where you can cast a 9 mana spell, the cards Ysera generates equate to the bulk of her value. And on that note, silencing a Knife Juggler or Worgen seems pretty loose to me.

The same can be said for many other non-legendary cards though. Raging Worgen. Knife Juggler. Questing Adventurer. All of these need to be removed ASAP in constructed and arena. Because of that, I don't think the level of "urgency to remove" commanded by a card necessarily directly relates to being overpowered.

As I said earlier, the closest thing you can compare Ysera to, in my opinion, is Nat and Mana Tide. They're all game-winners if allowed to sit around. Their ability to win you the game is just throttled by how much mana they cost.

Quote from Lextalionis »

A control deck does not want to spend 2 mana and discard a card late - if that 8 life wins you the game you were playing badly/a pretty bad control deck to be that close to dying to aggro late. I imagine even a Sunfury Protector, Argus, or any number of other cards give more effective health than a HT or HL with board presence to boot

The key word here being "imagine". The strength of your opinion coupled with its level of inaccuracy betrays the fact that you don't have any actual experience playing against high level opponents or decks.

I'll bite.

Ysera is balanced because it costs 9 mana and provides a non-significant clock (4 attack). It is essentially a HUGE Mana Tide Totem or Nat Pagle with some gratuitous attack power attached.

The card is undeniably balanced now. Doesn't get shoehorned into every single deck now.

Things have been this way in the TCG/CCG scene for a looong time. Nothing new I'd say. :P

Brace yourselves, readers. When this guy learns what Defender of Argus does, we're all in trouble.

Quote from Lextalionis»

and I stand by the statement that I'd rather play a card that either draws me more cards, applies more pressure etc than straight lifegain - Far Seer, Truesilver, GOK, the Ancient that can gain life are all viable but 2 mana gain some life is something I will never play

You're entitled to your opinion, and quite frankly I agree with you on some points. My only argument is that because some of the best players in the game are running cards that you deem "terrible", you might be using the term a little too liberally.

Quote from Lextalionis»

I'm not debating the efficacy of lifegain against decks with particularly huge fall-off once they cast their burn and you're not dead, I'm just saying cards that solely gain life are really not good against a gauntlet of decks

Quote from Lextalionis »

Healing Touch, Holy Light, etc are all awful. Do not play them. Lifegain as a bonus is fine (Lay on Hands, Truesilver Champ, even Guardian of Kings if you face a lot of Mage or midrange decks) is decent but solely paying for it is literally paying mana to discard cards

Quote from DenDron1986 »

Quote from RealStarke »

Awww.. I watched while it was 100%

Care to share decklist of what brought you to rank 3 and will you change anything because of Mage nerf?

The decklist is almost the same, I play two Power Overwhelming nowadays though in exchange for the Elven Archer or Young Priestess. The deck still performs beautifully, however I had to swap off it after the mage nerf because everyone was countering warlocks.