Hearthpwn

On the paladin legendary: your begging for a tie game by playing this, especially if you run giants.

On the spell: it gives 4 cards+the mana cost of two beasts. A random beast averages to 3 mana and change. 4 cards is worth 4 to 8 mana depending on who you ask and the restrictions on that card. 2 beasts is worth 6-7 mana. Even considering it being legendary, that spell is a strong contender for 10 mana if it could exist at all.

Quote from linvega2 »

Quote from lseelba »

I've seen numerous games where Ragnaros loses the game by hitting face instead of a powerful minion, or hitting a token instead of hitting face.  You can slice hairs whether he actively or passively lost the game, but still a loss is a loss.

The difference is usually, that, in the same scenario where hitting a specific minion with ragnaros is vitally important to not lose, any other 8 drop would probably have also "lost you the game right there". Ragnaros is the only one that even has the chance to turn that around. With Millhouse on the other hand, he has the chance to lose your game in a way that would be entirely impossible if you played any other card.

for example: 2x combo, all minions attack, poison seeds, then you take your actual turn if you haven't killed the other guy yet

Being completely random, it is equally likely to get every card in somebodies deck. By extension, getting a card is independent of what you got in another game or even earlier in this game. Basic stats say you should EXPECT results like this to occur every so often.

Quote from freeloadermc »

Quote from Peckham33 »

(old posts snipped)

Thanks for clearing it up, your original post confused me a bit. I see your points about Polymorph and Tinkmaster, but realistically we do not need a 5 mana card to deal with a 1/1, in which that 1/1 has to specifically be a beast. Since you're playing Polymorph, you're most likely going to be using the Mage hero ability to take it out anyways. Now if Tinkmaster turns it into a 5/5, of course that's significant value, but because the effect is so random, it's very rarely going to happen.

"And this isn't even including the beasts your opponent might play."
Keyword here is "might." There is a chance that your opponent is playing beasts, yes, but there is an even greater chance that your opponent is not. Out of the 50 or so beasts in the game, how many are actually playable? Not a lot. As of right now, most of the game's beasts that see play are Hunter-class related, all of which are very cheap and powerful. A 5 mana hate-card is not at all an efficient answer to any of their beasts, most of which are played at 1-2 mana. The most value out of Hemet I can think of getting realistically right now is killing a Savannah Highmane. Maybe some oddity decks will run Malorne or Gahzrilla and you'll gain a bunch of value , but these two cards are rare in today's meta, so this is a BEST case scenario. Most of the time, you'll be killing a Ironbeak Owl or Dire Wolf Alpha, and all this is IF your opponent is playing any of these cards in the first place.

And there's another thing to consider about Hemet. The 3 health. Any 5 mana minion that can be traded with a 1-drop Flamp Imp is pretty terrible in it of itself. One may argue that the stats are evened out by having a high attack for such a low health, but this is the same reason why Magma Rager doesn't see any play. It has an incredible amount of attack for it's mana cost, but it's health makes it so that it dies to nearly anything. If I'm gonna be playing anything at 5 mana, I want to make sure that it either sticks around, or gives my opponent a hard time to deal with.

TLDR With the rarity of value beasts to kill and the low health of 3 combined with the hefty cost of 5 mana, Hemet is simply not a good card. Even if the meta was invaded by beasts all of the sudden, I probably still wouldn't play Hemet because he dies so easily.

I think I see the biggest difference in how we are thinking: I consider the body left behind after the ability is used to be worth less then the full cost while you see it as still costing 5 mana.

In how I see it, if the battlecry performs a 2 mana equivilant then the body left behind only cost me 3 mana. Instead of using one class specific card with a drawback to judge a card, I use a gereral trend. 3/2 is typically a 2 drop that is meant to trade up. A 3/2 killing a 3 drop isn't that unheard of, and that is making the big assumption that they have a 3/2 on the board in the mid to late game.

Since this card is 5 mana to play, it will see play in the mid to late game by necessity. By that time, it is very possible they won't have a 3/2 left after his ability is used and using a big minion to kill him is a bad trade.

Also, I would certainly not run him without something to combine him with that is also good on it's own. It is far from unheard of at the higher ranks for people to hold a card an entire game just to use it on one card they believe the other person has or to combine with something else.

That said, I by no means consider him an amazing or must have legendary. I simply feel people are undervaluing Hemet and that he is not the worst.

Even if we assume it is a bug, it isn't worth spending hundreds of programer hours and even more computer hours to save a few seconds at best every few dozen games. I'm sure everyone, including the OP, would rather they spent that time on something better like a new expansion or new features (or, dare I say it, doing something other then stare at code. Even programers don't want to spend their life "fixing" a perfectly good wheel).

Quote from freeloadermc »

Quote from Peckham33 »

Hemet is better then a lot of people seem to give him credit for. He is terrible if his ability is never used, yes. However, If you can reliably combo him with something even to only deal 1 damage, he is worth the mana cost. If you can average 3 damage done per time played, he is a solid legendary. If you average better, he can actually become insane. He is a glass cannon, but if they don't kill him now then he will hurt.

I would likely give Millhouse the title of the highest risk legendary, which may or may not be worst.

Imo though, Nozdormu is the worst collectable legendary and Mr. Bigglesworth is the worst legendary including tokens.

I'm not sure what damage combos you're rambling on about here, since Hemet's ability has nothing to do with damage, as it is "destroy a Beast."

When you kill something with an effect like this, you could consider it equal or better (depending on what you hit) to dealing damage equal to it's health.

So if you polymorph a creature into a 1/1 beast, hemet could be used to kill this beast: effectively deal 1 damage to it. In this use, you could equate hemet's ability to the mage hero power: 2 mana and no card. This results in you paying 3 mana for a 6/3 minion. 9 stats is typically good for a vanilla 4 drop, though the distribution isn't the best. Even if you are very conservative and value the 1 damage with no card spent at 1 mana for some reason, you get a creature that is on curve for total stats with a very aggressive distribution.

Now say you play Tinkmaster Overspark and hit an enemy minion (This is controllable random so I have no problem making this assumption). The 1/1 is same as polymorph above. The 5/5 is effectively dealing 5 damage, one damage shy of a fireball. If we are very conservative and say that 5 damage+the card you didn't have to spend to do it is worth 4 mana, then that 6/3 is 1 mana.

And this isn't even including the beasts your opponent might play. 16/50 beasts (including tokens, 13/32 without) have 5 or more health. average health being about 3.275 (3.75 without tokens). If we pretend that in a sample meta, everyone's decks average to 1 beast a game randomly taken from the list played and you are able to use hemet on it: it would be reasonable to assume 3 to 4 damage from the ability on average.

If we include a bit more human tendency into the system, there will fewer beasts but the beasts used will likely average higher. The exact average per time played would end up depending on the meta, and hemet becoming popular would result in beasts becoming less popular, and causing a oscillation to occur for both hemet being popular and beasts being popular. Currently, that process has yet to really start since people have just thrown away hemet as junk and are playing with other cards they consider better.

Are there any points I wasn't clear enough on?

Hemet is better then a lot of people seem to give him credit for. He is terrible if his ability is never used, yes. However, If you can reliably combo him with something even to only deal 1 damage, he is worth the mana cost. If you can average 3 damage done per time played, he is a solid legendary. If you average better, he can actually become insane. He is a glass cannon, but if they don't kill him now then he will hurt.

I would likely give Millhouse the title of the highest risk legendary, which may or may not be worst.

Imo though, Nozdormu is the worst collectable legendary and Mr. Bigglesworth is the worst legendary including tokens.

Bug reports should be posted on the official hearthstone forums. Posting bug reports here is a waist of time for everyone involved.

Quote from sharpclaw »

Hobgoblin would be interesting to combo with enraged angry chicken turning it into a 8/2 or 8/1 beast 

Assuming that works, it would be a good target for reversing switch. Granted, that is also trolden video level.

Quote from bricktown »

[snip]

[nitpick] There are not 1000 cards in hearthstone and many cards have not had this said about them. Also, you might want to work on capitalizing the first letter of the first word of a new sentence. [/nitpick]

I will agree with you that Blizzard shouldn't be expected to get everything perfect, and that some people are using bad methods to judge value.

At Kahgro and Remhouse: Mind taking your mutual disagreement into PMs? It is not the topic of this thread.

Recycle isn't an auto include, But it is good enough to be game changing when used correctly. If it is used depends on the meta and the deck, but it is strong enough to be used. I seriously think some (*cough* many *cough*) people here have raised the bar of card expectations too high.

Also, comparing a card from a class that is good at removal to a card from a class that is terrible with removal isn't really fair.

keeg976: a small few small problems with that thought process:

The other guy knows what you have.

Kezan Mystic requires the other person to play a secret for you to get a secret.

You don't have nearly as much control over the secret as having one in your deck.

oh yes, and BayushiKoso hasn't posted on this thread since before Kezen Mystic was even revealed.

Depends on what rank you are talking about.

Unstable portal gives a net advantage of

1 mana, +0 cards in deck, +0 cards in hand, and you get a spray and pray effect.

The mana reduction is equal to innervate+coin, who's cost nets about 1.5 cards and 0 mana. So you are effective paying 2 mana for a spell that draws a random minion from all minions in the game and an effect equal to 1.5 cards. At some point I ran the exact numbers for the minions, will update this post If I find it.

The best advice I have ever received with these random result cards: "expect the average, hope for the best, plan for the worst." The fact it is a trope older then "kill it with fire" doesn't make it any less true.

For me, the worst tends to be cho. The best tends to depend heavily on the situation, and the average is a 3 or 4 stat minion with an ability I don't care about.