Card draw on its own is fine in my opinion, I don't mind if there is "too much" of it. It's always the worst feeling when you are in topdeck mode and the opponent isn't, and if one class that isn't warlock can draw their entire deck with ease, then all classes should be able to.
Yeah but you need to look at this from a balance perspective. Its not funny when Hunter or Demon Hunter or Paladin go into top deck mode and they pretty much lose because of that (pretty rare situation btw). But...that is supposed to be the weakness of decks that go into hard aggresive mode. If you can hold infinite resources in your hand (like paladin) or just draw 2 cards into 1 card into 3 cards (like Demon Hunter) them...what is the point of playing to outlast them? cofcoformagebutidontwanttotalkaboutmageinthistopiccofcof . Like...that is how you beat those decks if your finishers are not comming or they are not fast enough? Its kinda hard for other classes like Warrior or Shaman to beat Demon hunter for example, when that class can get 10 Hero Attack damage with a 2 card hand and also draw cards in the process. Sometimes play big taunts seems like really pointless in this cases.
Well, isn't that exactly what I said ? I'm sorry for the confusion I'm not a native english speaker.
My whole point was to give more card draw to shaman and priest to get them in line with the other classes, because card draw is no longer a weakness of aggro archetypes, it's a weakness of classes specifically. (I strongly disagree about Warrior lacking card draw). How is card draw a weakness of aggro decks if aggro DH can draw everything and aggro shaman can draw nothing ?
If some classes can go aggro and draw their entire decks (Rogue, DH), or go control and draw their entire decks (warlock, warrior), it is extremely unfair for classes that can't (Priest, Shaman, Paladin), regardless of class identity and other strengths or weaknesses.
I understand that at some point card draw was supposed to be a weakness for some classes and a strength for others to keep everything balanced, but the game's dynamic has shifted a long time ago and now having more card draw just means being able to build more archetypes and more powerful decks, and shaman is just left behind with very little room for experimentation or diversity, while priest can get away with ridiculous RNG value cards.
To me card draw now just seems like a tools used by the devs to push classes in and out of favor. Of course at any given point a class that lacks card draw can get away with some other bullshit I'm not saying it's not possible to win games as shaman or priest, it just feels like I'm playing a different game than my opponents.
Card draw on its own is fine in my opinion, I don't mind if there is "too much" of it. It's always the worst feeling when you are in topdeck mode and the opponent isn't, and if one class that isn't warlock can draw their entire deck with ease, then all classes should be able to.
My concern is the distribution, it's very unbalanced and classes like Mage, Rogue, DH, Warlock, Warrior can pretty much draw their entire deck by turn 10, classes like Hunter, Paladin, Druid have more "fair" card draw but still a lot of it, while Shaman and Priest have pretty much nothing and need to rely on very weak neutral cards or random card generators.
It used to be a class identity thing, way back in the days when classes and archetypes were more closely tied together, but now it just seems like a very artificial way to push up or down winrates.
My other concern is tempo or snowball card draw. Cards like Refreshing Spring Water or Swindle, while very powerful, and a very clear attempt to artificially boost the class winrate, do nothing else than drawing cards, and a card that has no impact on the board has a real cost to your deck, it means your entire deck contains less value and friction overall. That's why control warlock always feels natural, because all 30 cards can have an impact on the game and you can still draw cards efficiently.
On the other hand, cards like Sparkjoy Cheat, Greyheart Sage, Field Contact, Primordial Protector, Consume Magic, Stiltstepper, Twilight Runner, Stonemaul Anchorman, Outrider's Axe, while maybe more balanced in a given meta than pure card draw cards, I think have a much more negative impact on the game overall, because they reward drawing cards with strong impact on the board for free, like everyone is a warlock now, I think that completely breaks hearthstone's dynamic, now you don't need to draw your win condition, your win condition IS drawing as much as you can into more tempo cards that draw more tempo cards that draw more tempo cards.
That's why Refreshing Spring Water will, I think, never be nerfed. Because it literally does nothing (and rewards different deck building in a more elegant and interesting way than Apexis Blast / Font of Power). It will never be the cause of any balance issue, only the symptom, It's entirely dependant on the 28 cards around it, unlike tempo card draw that can absolutely break the game by itself.
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Well, isn't that exactly what I said ? I'm sorry for the confusion I'm not a native english speaker.
My whole point was to give more card draw to shaman and priest to get them in line with the other classes, because card draw is no longer a weakness of aggro archetypes, it's a weakness of classes specifically. (I strongly disagree about Warrior lacking card draw). How is card draw a weakness of aggro decks if aggro DH can draw everything and aggro shaman can draw nothing ?
If some classes can go aggro and draw their entire decks (Rogue, DH), or go control and draw their entire decks (warlock, warrior), it is extremely unfair for classes that can't (Priest, Shaman, Paladin), regardless of class identity and other strengths or weaknesses.
I understand that at some point card draw was supposed to be a weakness for some classes and a strength for others to keep everything balanced, but the game's dynamic has shifted a long time ago and now having more card draw just means being able to build more archetypes and more powerful decks, and shaman is just left behind with very little room for experimentation or diversity, while priest can get away with ridiculous RNG value cards.
To me card draw now just seems like a tools used by the devs to push classes in and out of favor. Of course at any given point a class that lacks card draw can get away with some other bullshit I'm not saying it's not possible to win games as shaman or priest, it just feels like I'm playing a different game than my opponents.
Card draw on its own is fine in my opinion, I don't mind if there is "too much" of it. It's always the worst feeling when you are in topdeck mode and the opponent isn't, and if one class that isn't warlock can draw their entire deck with ease, then all classes should be able to.
My concern is the distribution, it's very unbalanced and classes like Mage, Rogue, DH, Warlock, Warrior can pretty much draw their entire deck by turn 10, classes like Hunter, Paladin, Druid have more "fair" card draw but still a lot of it, while Shaman and Priest have pretty much nothing and need to rely on very weak neutral cards or random card generators.
It used to be a class identity thing, way back in the days when classes and archetypes were more closely tied together, but now it just seems like a very artificial way to push up or down winrates.
My other concern is tempo or snowball card draw. Cards like Refreshing Spring Water or Swindle, while very powerful, and a very clear attempt to artificially boost the class winrate, do nothing else than drawing cards, and a card that has no impact on the board has a real cost to your deck, it means your entire deck contains less value and friction overall. That's why control warlock always feels natural, because all 30 cards can have an impact on the game and you can still draw cards efficiently.
On the other hand, cards like Sparkjoy Cheat, Greyheart Sage, Field Contact, Primordial Protector, Consume Magic, Stiltstepper, Twilight Runner, Stonemaul Anchorman, Outrider's Axe, while maybe more balanced in a given meta than pure card draw cards, I think have a much more negative impact on the game overall, because they reward drawing cards with strong impact on the board for free, like everyone is a warlock now, I think that completely breaks hearthstone's dynamic, now you don't need to draw your win condition, your win condition IS drawing as much as you can into more tempo cards that draw more tempo cards that draw more tempo cards.
That's why Refreshing Spring Water will, I think, never be nerfed. Because it literally does nothing (and rewards different deck building in a more elegant and interesting way than Apexis Blast / Font of Power). It will never be the cause of any balance issue, only the symptom, It's entirely dependant on the 28 cards around it, unlike tempo card draw that can absolutely break the game by itself.