I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
Bad cards existing purely to decrease the power level of RNG is bad design imo, they just need to balance RNG generators more properly.
Yeah I agree with this completely. If Blizzard curb the high variance RNG I would be pleasantly suprised.
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game.
And if you wanna increase the cost of discover, let's increase the cost of card draw and burn and AoE while we're at it. They help you win games.
These things absolutely should be looked at too. Card draw at the minute is absurd. Even aggro decks are going to fatigue and winning games regularly. Warlock, Shaman, Warrior and Priest can obliterate everything you put down with cheap and effective removal. Just about every aspect of their card design needs looking at tbh,
Just to add a quick point from another topic as I mentioned Soulciologist Malicia, Blizzard seem to think it’s fine to completely break cards if they’re designed to fit a certain deck. So with Malicia she is completely unplayable outside of a deck which runs the soul fragment package, however if you do run the package she is completely bonkers. These kind of effects used to be limited to decks with severe restrictions, like Highlander decks, however now the requirement for insane minions seems to just be anything. “Put a few bombs in your opponent’s deck to summon Dr Boom on steriods” is another one.
Wand Thief and Renew require nothing, costs you nothing, and can have a super high impact on the game with no real drawback, that seems pretty unbalanced to me. Magic Trick should be the benchmark for all future discover effects imo.
@KinkyjohnFowler Which cards are we talking about besides Wand Thief? I really don't think Renew or Palm Reading are as bad as all that. Athletic Studies has a pretty high success rate for getting good cards (but again, that's a card pool issue). Most of the other studies cards are fine.
The power level of cards is completely off it’s tits across the board, so I would have a hard time trying to argue that the discover cards are OP, or need a nerf. I mean Soulciologist Malicia is a 7-mana 5/5 that summons 18/18 worth of stats with rush.
I cannot imaging building a control Priest list without Renew and/or Palm Reading however, the deck would be far less consistent.
My issue with Discover isn’t the power level (that is an issue, but like I say that is an issue that effects far too many cards at the minute), I just dislike how they extend the tools of almost every deck (decided by a dice roll). I also hate the majority (not all) of RNG outside of the initial shuffling of the deck, for reasons that have been covered in this thread by others.
With something like Renew it isn’t that discovering a 10-Mana card with a 1-Mana card is a problem, or playing the discovered card the same turn is a problem, it’s that the card can be used at any stage in the game to find an answer for any question. I just hate playing against it personally. When Raven Idol was printed Druids suddenly had hard removal, something their class is meant to be bad at. Rogue can flip a coin with Wand Thief to clear a full board, something they aren’t meant to be able to easily do. This is seen as acceptable because the inherent randomness of Discover keeps things in check to a degree, again I just don’t find that a fun or interesting way to balance the game, it’s frustrating to play against and unrewarding to play, for me anyway.
@P4DGE not directed at me but to respond to your point...
I hate Wand Thief but I use the card because it’s arguably the best card in the game, I don’t see how that has any bearing on my opinion of the card.
One of the main issues is that the discover cards are so versatile and powerful that you have to play them, otherwise you’re needlessly neutering your own deck.
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power. The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair. The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol. And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
Jandice literally always plays a card that costs 5 (which is what she costs), and then two cards that die to one damage. If those cards are average 5 drops (5/5s) then that's what she's supposed to do. And if she's too good that way, because she can push too much damage, or whatever, I can't actually imagine how she can be too consistently good as a 5 drop legendary that summons random minions, but if she is then they can nerf her to summon 4 drops or something.
According to HS Replay she’s the 2nd most run card behind Lightening Bloom, and it looks like her pool of cards will be stronger post rotation.
I’m not specifically talking about just Jandice though, the poster I replied to mentioned that power creep isn’t an issue as long as everybody gets powerful stuff, which I disagree with.
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power. The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair. The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol. And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
That kind of BS discover into discover plays have stolen games I would otherwise have won more times than I can count. Doesnt feel like your opponent outplayed you, feels like you just got scammed, hard. Its fine when it happens once in a while, but it happens way too often for comfort imo.
Never said you cant generate expensive cards, only that you should pay more for the chance to discover them, getting high cost stuff from 1-mana discover effects is broken, plain and simple.
And as a side point it makes playing on mobile near impossible at times. Rogue in particular can go from 0 cards to a full hand because of their Lackeys that what’s in their hand after their turn is finished is anybody’s guess. Using a 3rd party Deck Tracker is pretty much mandatory.
You can have RNG and whacky shit though without turning competitive decks into randomly generated coin flips. It’s less to do with Blizzard trying to inject more variety into the meta and more down to them wanting to reduce the disparity between good and bad players.
I hate playing meta decks and much prefer janky combos and silly RNG fiestas. I’m perfectly willing to accept that these decks should not be strong, with the cost of crazy games and big moments being a sub-par winrate.
There’s plenty of ways they can shake up the meta without the need for 1 drops with “Add a useless card or a win condition to your hand”. Like I alluded to in my previous post a Core Set that expands between expansions (and then resets with the release of a new expansion) would achieve this.
It’s by far the most frustrating thing about HS for me. I understand the need for a little bit of variety between the same matchups being played every day but it’s at a point where so many games are almost entirely decided by who high rolls with their random generation.
Babbling Book was the worst example of this when it was released and it’s incredibly disappointing to see that Blizzard not only disagree with me on this, but find the card so integral to their vision of the game that it has been put into the Core Set for everybody to play.
My issue isn’t with randomness in the game, I LOVE cards like Renounce Darkness and Shadow Council, or Deck of Chaos. Cards that have huge random game changing effects and are playable but not powerful enough to make the meta lists.
I’m also a fan of random effects with low variance that allows us to see minions and spells we otherwise wouldn’t, but not when they are used to offer decks tools they shouldn’t have (such as giving Rogue good AOE). These can be things like “Discover a Mech that costs 3 or less”, “Summon a minion with 3-health”, or “Add a 1-mana spell to your hand”. These can still decide a game, but not to a point where it just becomes obnoxious.
The issue is with coin flip finishers (Yogg, Rag etc) or, like you say in your post, cheap/powerful, high variance generation (Wand Thief, the mummy cat, Renew etc). Your solutions would make a huge difference and I would love to see Blizzard follow clear rules on what powerful cards are allowed to do when it comes to random effects.
———————
Personally I believe the best solution to stagnant metas is to scrap Wild from ranked play and replace it with a format which only allows decks to be built from cards of the same ‘Hearthstone Year’ as well as the Core set. So Year of the Kraken cards cannot be combined with cards from Year of the Dragon, however we would see decks from Year of the Kraken facing off against decks from Year of the Dragon and so on.
Obviously they would go back and change some cards from the past to balance out the sets and continue the game onwards with this mode in mind. The Core Set would also expand every couple of weeks evolving the metagame in between expansions, ensuring players always have something new to try, and counters to oppressive decks being introduced on the fly.
The main idea is that this mode would naturally be of a lower power level due to lower card pools per deck, however overall there will be far more variety as more lower powered cards will have viability, and each ‘Year’ offers each class different strengths and weaknesses, also lists will never be fully settled or optimised as the growing Core Set between expansions will require constant revisions.
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Yeah I agree with this completely. If Blizzard curb the high variance RNG I would be pleasantly suprised.
I mean you could add counter points to what he said?
Bad cards being in the card pool do make cards like Jandice and Wand Maker less effective, and so a tighter core set with less bad cards makes these cards even better, do you disagree?
These things absolutely should be looked at too. Card draw at the minute is absurd. Even aggro decks are going to fatigue and winning games regularly. Warlock, Shaman, Warrior and Priest can obliterate everything you put down with cheap and effective removal. Just about every aspect of their card design needs looking at tbh,
Just to add a quick point from another topic as I mentioned Soulciologist Malicia, Blizzard seem to think it’s fine to completely break cards if they’re designed to fit a certain deck. So with Malicia she is completely unplayable outside of a deck which runs the soul fragment package, however if you do run the package she is completely bonkers. These kind of effects used to be limited to decks with severe restrictions, like Highlander decks, however now the requirement for insane minions seems to just be anything. “Put a few bombs in your opponent’s deck to summon Dr Boom on steriods” is another one.
The power level of cards is completely off it’s tits across the board, so I would have a hard time trying to argue that the discover cards are OP, or need a nerf. I mean Soulciologist Malicia is a 7-mana 5/5 that summons 18/18 worth of stats with rush.
I cannot imaging building a control Priest list without Renew and/or Palm Reading however, the deck would be far less consistent.
My issue with Discover isn’t the power level (that is an issue, but like I say that is an issue that effects far too many cards at the minute), I just dislike how they extend the tools of almost every deck (decided by a dice roll). I also hate the majority (not all) of RNG outside of the initial shuffling of the deck, for reasons that have been covered in this thread by others.
With something like Renew it isn’t that discovering a 10-Mana card with a 1-Mana card is a problem, or playing the discovered card the same turn is a problem, it’s that the card can be used at any stage in the game to find an answer for any question. I just hate playing against it personally. When Raven Idol was printed Druids suddenly had hard removal, something their class is meant to be bad at. Rogue can flip a coin with Wand Thief to clear a full board, something they aren’t meant to be able to easily do. This is seen as acceptable because the inherent randomness of Discover keeps things in check to a degree, again I just don’t find that a fun or interesting way to balance the game, it’s frustrating to play against and unrewarding to play, for me anyway.
@P4DGE not directed at me but to respond to your point...
I hate Wand Thief but I use the card because it’s arguably the best card in the game, I don’t see how that has any bearing on my opinion of the card.
One of the main issues is that the discover cards are so versatile and powerful that you have to play them, otherwise you’re needlessly neutering your own deck.
According to HS Replay she’s the 2nd most run card behind Lightening Bloom, and it looks like her pool of cards will be stronger post rotation.
I’m not specifically talking about just Jandice though, the poster I replied to mentioned that power creep isn’t an issue as long as everybody gets powerful stuff, which I disagree with.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
And as a side point it makes playing on mobile near impossible at times. Rogue in particular can go from 0 cards to a full hand because of their Lackeys that what’s in their hand after their turn is finished is anybody’s guess. Using a 3rd party Deck Tracker is pretty much mandatory.
You can have RNG and whacky shit though without turning competitive decks into randomly generated coin flips. It’s less to do with Blizzard trying to inject more variety into the meta and more down to them wanting to reduce the disparity between good and bad players.
I hate playing meta decks and much prefer janky combos and silly RNG fiestas. I’m perfectly willing to accept that these decks should not be strong, with the cost of crazy games and big moments being a sub-par winrate.
There’s plenty of ways they can shake up the meta without the need for 1 drops with “Add a useless card or a win condition to your hand”. Like I alluded to in my previous post a Core Set that expands between expansions (and then resets with the release of a new expansion) would achieve this.
It’s by far the most frustrating thing about HS for me. I understand the need for a little bit of variety between the same matchups being played every day but it’s at a point where so many games are almost entirely decided by who high rolls with their random generation.
Babbling Book was the worst example of this when it was released and it’s incredibly disappointing to see that Blizzard not only disagree with me on this, but find the card so integral to their vision of the game that it has been put into the Core Set for everybody to play.
My issue isn’t with randomness in the game, I LOVE cards like Renounce Darkness and Shadow Council, or Deck of Chaos. Cards that have huge random game changing effects and are playable but not powerful enough to make the meta lists.
I’m also a fan of random effects with low variance that allows us to see minions and spells we otherwise wouldn’t, but not when they are used to offer decks tools they shouldn’t have (such as giving Rogue good AOE). These can be things like “Discover a Mech that costs 3 or less”, “Summon a minion with 3-health”, or “Add a 1-mana spell to your hand”. These can still decide a game, but not to a point where it just becomes obnoxious.
The issue is with coin flip finishers (Yogg, Rag etc) or, like you say in your post, cheap/powerful, high variance generation (Wand Thief, the mummy cat, Renew etc). Your solutions would make a huge difference and I would love to see Blizzard follow clear rules on what powerful cards are allowed to do when it comes to random effects.
———————
Personally I believe the best solution to stagnant metas is to scrap Wild from ranked play and replace it with a format which only allows decks to be built from cards of the same ‘Hearthstone Year’ as well as the Core set. So Year of the Kraken cards cannot be combined with cards from Year of the Dragon, however we would see decks from Year of the Kraken facing off against decks from Year of the Dragon and so on.
Obviously they would go back and change some cards from the past to balance out the sets and continue the game onwards with this mode in mind. The Core Set would also expand every couple of weeks evolving the metagame in between expansions, ensuring players always have something new to try, and counters to oppressive decks being introduced on the fly.
The main idea is that this mode would naturally be of a lower power level due to lower card pools per deck, however overall there will be far more variety as more lower powered cards will have viability, and each ‘Year’ offers each class different strengths and weaknesses, also lists will never be fully settled or optimised as the growing Core Set between expansions will require constant revisions.