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The changes coming to standard are all very nice and long overdue, but my biggest concern with HS still remains: random value generation is complete BS right now, specially Discover mechanics.
The amount of RVG available to some classes is so high that the random drawback means very little. You will ALWAYS get something useful if you roll the dice 9282295 times. Getting a random card that turns the tables of a losing game is ok when it happens once in a while, not EVERYTIME i play against Rogue, Priest and Mage.
I dont see any indication that this design phylosophy is gonna leave the game anytime soon, so I believe some restrictions should be applied to make the game feel like less of a joke and more skill-based:
01. Cost Restriction on Discover effects: Cards with Discover should not give you options that cost way more than the cost you just paid, there should always be a limit. The perfect example is Magic Trick. Allowing cards like Wand Thief and Renew to discover high cost stuff gives way too much potential impact to cards that cost too little, also giving less incentive to play higher cost cards. Want a chance to get stuff like Pyroblast or Plague of Death from Discover? PAY MORE FOR THAT PRIVILEGE.
02.
Anti-Infinite BS Restrictions:No card that generates value (randomly or Discover) should ever give you cards that also generate random value, EVER. Any cards with "add random" or "discover" in their texts should be locked out from the available card pool of potential options. This limits how much the player can roll the dice with a single card to once, while also making the effect more consistent since the card pool becomes smaller, its a win-win deal. Roll the dice once, roll it better.Never mind, the first suggestion is already good enough to answer both problems.Any other good restriction ideas? Do you think the RVG in the game is fine? Why? Just remember to keep it civil, these are just my opinions after all.
I play Hearthstone mainly for the RNG and wacky shit, I love discover, might be unpopular here, I don't know. There will be classic now for those who want a more predictable game mode, so that's good.
It’s by far the most frustrating thing about HS for me. I understand the need for a little bit of variety between the same matchups being played every day but it’s at a point where so many games are almost entirely decided by who high rolls with their random generation.
Babbling Book was the worst example of this when it was released and it’s incredibly disappointing to see that Blizzard not only disagree with me on this, but find the card so integral to their vision of the game that it has been put into the Core Set for everybody to play.
My issue isn’t with randomness in the game, I LOVE cards like Renounce Darkness and Shadow Council, or Deck of Chaos. Cards that have huge random game changing effects and are playable but not powerful enough to make the meta lists.
I’m also a fan of random effects with low variance that allows us to see minions and spells we otherwise wouldn’t, but not when they are used to offer decks tools they shouldn’t have (such as giving Rogue good AOE). These can be things like “Discover a Mech that costs 3 or less”, “Summon a minion with 3-health”, or “Add a 1-mana spell to your hand”. These can still decide a game, but not to a point where it just becomes obnoxious.
The issue is with coin flip finishers (Yogg, Rag etc) or, like you say in your post, cheap/powerful, high variance generation (Wand Thief, the mummy cat, Renew etc). Your solutions would make a huge difference and I would love to see Blizzard follow clear rules on what powerful cards are allowed to do when it comes to random effects.
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Personally I believe the best solution to stagnant metas is to scrap Wild from ranked play and replace it with a format which only allows decks to be built from cards of the same ‘Hearthstone Year’ as well as the Core set. So Year of the Kraken cards cannot be combined with cards from Year of the Dragon, however we would see decks from Year of the Kraken facing off against decks from Year of the Dragon and so on.
Obviously they would go back and change some cards from the past to balance out the sets and continue the game onwards with this mode in mind. The Core Set would also expand every couple of weeks evolving the metagame in between expansions, ensuring players always have something new to try, and counters to oppressive decks being introduced on the fly.
The main idea is that this mode would naturally be of a lower power level due to lower card pools per deck, however overall there will be far more variety as more lower powered cards will have viability, and each ‘Year’ offers each class different strengths and weaknesses, also lists will never be fully settled or optimised as the growing Core Set between expansions will require constant revisions.
It's my absolute favorite way to play the game, but I tend agree. Building a value control deck used to be an interesting exercise where there were genuine ramifications to adding an extra 8 drop to your deck. Now, what does it matter? You can't predict what your opponent will play. You may have to deal with an extra 50+ mana worth of minions simply based on what they discover. And it's not like there were any real ramifications for them to include that value potential, either. They could have just as easily found tempo cards to help them in a faster matchup. Lackeys (particularly the dragon discover) are a big part of that, imo.
That said, I wouldn't trade my Galakrond rogue for anything. I love that every game plays out in a completely different fashion. But then, I'm not a competitive player.
Love discover, as long as its not too much.
I dont want a game completely ruined by rng, but at the same time there has to be some if not its just rock, papir and scissors.
I wholeheartedly agree with the previous posters. The RNG in this game has become awful and rampant. Lackeys were a huge problem in this and thankfully they are rotating.
The biggest problem card that I see going forward is Wand Thief. The amount of matches I had against whirlkick rogues that got absolutely insane rng draws from wand thief such as fireball, pyroblast or frost nova were huge. In addition to the rogue generating infinite value from whirlkick.
This rng also destroys class identity, does not feel good to be pyroblasted in the face from a non mage class. Devs have to do something to downplay the RNG. Thankfully there will be classic mode now.
I agree with this.
Random, discover, etc are all part of making each game different and exciting. You never know what you will get. I think that makes it fun.
I get that losing to a random effect or a discovered card that the opponent got is annoying, but so is drawing your cards in a way that doesn't allow optimal play. And that is just part and parcel of playing a card game.
I've always thought the competitive scene wasn't a good fit for a game like this and it should just be played for the silliness of it.
To each their own, I guess.
DISCOVER IZ A PROBLUM IN STANDART!
Uses an example of discovering two cards that won't be in standard.
You can have RNG and whacky shit though without turning competitive decks into randomly generated coin flips. It’s less to do with Blizzard trying to inject more variety into the meta and more down to them wanting to reduce the disparity between good and bad players.
I hate playing meta decks and much prefer janky combos and silly RNG fiestas. I’m perfectly willing to accept that these decks should not be strong, with the cost of crazy games and big moments being a sub-par winrate.
There’s plenty of ways they can shake up the meta without the need for 1 drops with “Add a useless card or a win condition to your hand”. Like I alluded to in my previous post a Core Set that expands between expansions (and then resets with the release of a new expansion) would achieve this.
Guys please, stop missing my point! I never said to get rid of anything, just that Discover and Add Random effects should be TONED DOWN.
The importance of RNG has never been called into question here, I like it too, but the value generation is too out of control to be called healthy. 1-mana cards giving you high cost board wipes/lethals, or giving random stuff that gives you MORE random stuff, none of this should be possible imo.
RVG should be a useful support option for many strategies, but NEVER a valid primary win condition! Losing a game to lots of random BS your opponent discovered shouldnt happen this often, it devalues ALL THE PLAYS both players did up until that point, makes it feel like your decisions in that game didnt really matter!
Too much of anything is always harmful, this is no different.
I also did not say they should get rid of random/discover, but I suppose my opinion is that it's fine the way it is now.
They also did tone down discover a little bit already, by not allowing cards to discover themselves.
Your point about value paid for value gained is actually a good idea. Restricting the cost of cards that can be found would also make the chances of finding what you want more likely. (= more skill?)
I think in the future, with spells having class tags, it might cause them to create more cards that pull spells from a specific pool, thus keeping the choices more refined. You could reasonably expect what is to be generated this way. I guess that's a positive thing?
No, it will be worse.
Take a walk on the wild side...
Getting rid of low rolls might actually make randomness more enjoyable as it'll be more consistent.
I've been wanting to do a write up on Discover to show how overused the keyword has become with time, but have been too lazy to. It's basically discover an answer, and blizz likes to undervalue it.
At least right now I think blizz has gotten the idea that discover is an overpowered mechanic. If you look at the new core set, There are only 4 discover cards, Only 1 creates anything out of nothing, the other 3 are all discover cards in your deck and only 1 of those creates a copy, the other 2 draw. And so far, 0 discover cards have been revealed in Barrens.
This is mind blowing. How is the dev team allowing this to happen? The meta after expansion release will literally be 2 classes with wandmaker and jandice highrolls. Big oversight by the dev team.
I didnt want to get into this topic cuz we havent seen the full Barrens set yet, Zeddy is getting a bit ahead of himself in this video.
But ye, if the Barrens set doesnt introduce lots of crappy stuff all over the place, RVG will become even more powerful cuz the bad cards pool is much smaller now.
Demon Hunter is a standout example of a class that doesn't really have any value generation what so ever. It has its cards, you know what those cards are and after the 100th time of getting smacked in the face with the same weapon, following the same boosts being applied to it, it all gets very old.... At least for me and judging by the tears we've seen over the last 12 months, plenty of other people feel similar.
Know what else is boring to play against? Libram/Pure Paladin. That too is pretty much play the cards within your deck with the exception of a couple of things but I'm personally tired of facing that deck, so tired. Face Hunter.... Zzzzzzzzzzz.
I don't want to see the same decks repeatedly with the same cards. Discover and RNG keep the game fresh. I don't really mind priest match ups, mage either. I mainly play a quest mage with as much discover and random effects as possible. Very rarely do two games feel the same and whilst I get rolled over by aggro, there is always a chance I get something that can help me. Maybe that is 4 frost barriers and helps me stall long enough but for me, I see that happen one game in 50. I care not if it frustrates you because 49 times out of 50 I lose to that aggressive deck by turn 5 and that far out weighs your frustration, in my eyes at least.
People complain about this game as if they want it in a state that they don't get triggered, annoyed, frustrated etc and you're chasing a holy grail there. It isn't going to happen. There will always be some deck or class or card that pisses you off. It's the same with pretty much every pvp focused game. Some tactic, character card, weapon, shot type, skill type, attribute class.... You get my drift here, will annoy someone, somewhere.
If you genuinely feel it's way too much, it may just be that the game isn't for you. Rather than complain about it until you get it how you want, look at alternatives that may be more your style? I tried magic once and it wasn't for me at all. The style, the feel, all of it was just too serious and tedious. I never once went on the magic forum to complain about the art style or whatever I accepted that it isn't the game for me and moved on.
I definitely don't want them to tone it down, I'd be happy with more in all honesty. Decks like burgle rogue and quest mage are what I play the game for. If they are going to cater to the fave hunters, demon hunters and weapon rogues of the game then I want my RNG and discover so my less cheesy decks can get that 1 in 50 wins and I don't feel like I'm playing the same game over and over again. Demon hunter mirrors are an absolute bore. The more discover effects there are, the more options and choices you have and the more open you have to be when considering what your opponent might do. This rewards higher skilled players because choices and anticipation are big parts of what makes a skilled player skilled and a poor player poor.
All of the above is completely my subjective view and is in no way telling anyone they should feel the same.
Thanks for the counter point! I think this is exactly where balance has to come and do its job. I like getting random stuff too, it has many great benefits for the game, but I dont think getting high impact, game-winning stuff out of cards that cost nothing such as Wand Thief/Renew is healthy for the game either, the same way I dont think aggro decks like Weapon Rogue should have access to so much card draw and never run out of gas.
Balance exists to try and make the game enjoyable for as many people as possible, not just for people that play it for the casino aspect (again, I like it too). Is the game ever going to feel perfect for everyone? ofc not, but thats no excuse to let things as they are when they could be better!
Honestly that makes perfect sense and would vastly improve deck variety and design space, and make the cards from your deck matter more than the cards you generate. I like it. Magic Trick definitely is 10 times more interesting and logical design wise than Wand Thief.
That is maybe a step too far and doesn't sound nearly as interesting game design as your first suggestion. It's no longer RNG at that point, every RNG card would pull from a very specific and narrow pool of cards. I think it's fine that RNG sometimes generates more RNG and more value, as long as you pay a fair price for it.
Just be aware, that Blizzard agree with you, they want to tone down RNG and make it more skill intensive and restricted and interesting and logical. At least that's what they say, we'll see of that turns out.
I see there's some RNG fiesta enthusiasts in this thread, who get bored after seeing the same card twice, it's fine (although maybe you shouldn't play card games if you get bored of repetion that easily) but I mean the op doesn't care that you only enjoy full RNG meme games, and your opinion isn't more valid than the op's opinion, what's your point exactly ?
The fact remains, that this is a card game, it's based on numbers, choices, decisions, logic... It's pretty much a game of mathematics. And unrestricted RNG completely negates all of that and plays itself for you. Which is fine, but at that point it's more a movie than a game.
Resizing Pouch is probably the best example of that. It's not even a strong card and it's quite interesting functionally. But it's the very type of card that is killing hearthstone (in my opinion). It's a 1 mana card, in no circumstance should this be allowed to consistently generate 8 or 9 mana cards while retaining its 1 mana cost, while also be able to consistently generate 2 or 3 mana cards in other situations, with the exact same card, paying the exact same mana. Like the op said, you want the ability to generate bigger cards, you should pay more mana for it. Resizing pouch should have a base cost of 0 and cost you the same mana as the card it generates. 1 mana for a 1 mana card, 9 mana for a 9 mana card. And it would be a terrible card, but also a more interesting one.
You made a very interesting post overall but this right here... you're just fooling yourself. Do you remember when Pavel won a tournament game he was 100% losing by topdecking a RNG book that generated the perfect polymoprh counter out of nowhere ? His skill wasn't rewarded at all. RNG rewards people themselves for free, there is no skill required whatsoever to be rewarded by RNG.
And high skill players just don't play around RNG anymore, especially in Wild, it's a waste of time and brain activity.