You get 4 legendaries and 3 epics and complain? Piss off, I've been grinding F2P Arena since release and still haven't gotten more than 2 legendaries, there's cafting in this game for a reason - just be happy you got 400 dust.
Why would you want a trade system over a crafting system? I understand the desire to want to have something like that BUT you have to think more about what drives the MODO economy... People hardly buy boosters... Most people draft sets, that's how the bulk of the cards get into circulation. Hearthstone doesn't do this. So for starters there would be less cards in circulation. To add to this, card prices would then start to flux and the bulk of all the rares people would pull would ultimately be worth less than they are now with a crafting system. Prices of playable Epics and Legendaries would sky rocket, all other ones would probably have the value of rares now in the crafting system. So right now 4 crappy legends can craft 1 playable legend, but if you wanted a trade system those legendaries would be next to worthless (similar to $1 mythics in Magic)
Long Story Short its easier/cheaper to build a collection with crafting system than MODO style economy.
My Personal Opinion is that People should not be able to craft Foils. That maybe we have an Auction House type environment to buy/sell Foils.
You look at it like, I pulled 4 crappy legendarys... I look at it as you got to choose any one legendary that you wanted.
i looked at it like wow!! 4 legendaries, thanks! what to do with these dusts? do i wanna craft legendaries? what if they suck? what if i waste my dusts... lol
Going to throw out there that Naxx is a different approach to opening packs of cards.
Good - No random cards or duplicates. Flat fee (or pay as you go). Fun content to play while you earn the cards.
Bad - Now everyone has the same cards. Everyone has Loatheb. You are not special.
I loved Naxx do not get me wrong, but you feel special when you open a pack and get a legendary, especially one a friend does not have. With Naxx, it evened the playing field with cards that were not all that hard to earn for "Legendary."
Just spend 50 usd in packs for like a full priced triple a game. The quality of hearthstone is worth it imo. What did you expect, its a free to play game
The economy of the game would collapse. Far too many ways to abuse such a system.
Especially with an unlimited economy with people spending real money. Just no way to put a $$ value on dust without dust eventually going for 1000s per dollar. Inflation is real.
perhaps.. perhaps not.. there is no economy now. so you can't say it would collapse when it isn't present..
one thing that happens when you have an economy in a card game like this is: It puts a supply and demand on top popular cards... currently you can craft any card you want provided you have the dust.. and dust can only be provided via your money or arena.. but realisticly your money for packs and disenchanted extras.
anyways for example: if you have an economy you have fluctuating values of cards based on the meta.. that fluctuating value is what balances out the game. and example of this would be the rise of the hunter popularity.... things like say the eaglethorn bow or flare right now would be worth more than a normal rare or epic... the end result would be not everyone using the same cookie cutter decks because the popluar cards would always be somewhat harder to obtain.. likewise you could take advantage of the popularity by trading said popular card while it was hot.
but anyways... im not saying turn this game into mtg.. not at all i like that its somewhat different.. i do miss the in game chat and trade system though.
i would also like to see some kind of tournament implement.. and not the legendary in ranked i mean an event you pay for and threw elimination there is a winner that takes the prize or top three places anyways...
a) You could trade your duplicates with other players, or sell them; but.. b) There was no way to get booster packs other than paying real cash for them. No grinding gold in-game to buy packs.
Because that's the alternative TCG business model.
If you would prefer that.. well, there's Magic Online, or there's Hex when it hits open beta (which should be very soon).
FYI - There is an economy. Spend money, get cards. Spend time, earn cards. If history can be a teacher, take a look at D3 and how the economy collapsed in 5 days.
In any economy where people can earn things for their time vs money you will have massive in game value inflation because people tend to have more time than money. The game creators don't want that to occur because they would have just flat lined their own game's earning potential. This problem is only multiplied when you realize people can have multiple accounts and can just farm out starting characters for easy gold, gather up quests for questing efficiency or use bots to farm up one account through multiple accounts. There can be no balance with real world currency when someone can earn with time. There can be no maintained demand with unlimited supply. Right now the only factor incentivizing people to spend money on the game is the time requirement. Remove or reduce the time it requires to get what you want and your game devalues itself.
Trading is used mostly by people pulling packs that have no other method of getting more/newer cards or who have cards they just don't care for. It's generally highly inefficient for earning overall card value, but if you find no use for what you have then you can come out with potentially trading into something you do want. If the economy is based on what people want (supply and demand are also factors here) then there is a real currency backing it. This means that there are 2 forms of currency in a card game: Cards and Money The factor people don't seem to remember is the limited number of cards in any CCG. The reason older MTG sets (even bad ones) are worth more now than then is because of the fact that there is very little supply of those cards/packs/boxes. Forcing a higher value regardless of the potential value per pack once opened. IE - Urzas Legacy is worth $20 a pack about at my store. The average value of the cards from a pack of Urzas on the market would be about $3. Packs are worth more unopened than opened for many reasons.
In Hearthstone there are 5 forms of currency at work: Gold, Dust, Currency, Cards and Time.
If time becomes the most efficient method of earning, then we reduce the value of dust and currency.
If we reduce dust value, then gold goes down in value (the only way to earn dust and cards)
If we reduce all of the above factors, then cards lose their value (if they had any to begin with).
The only thing keeping cards worth their value is the time it requires to earn them/craft them. Whoever can earn the most stuff on a regular basis would control the economy and eventually deflate the values of all of the unlimited media.
Simple example: I pull a second The Beast. If I dust it it would be worth 400 dust. If I wanted to trade it that value would initially be higher than the dusting value (as there are people who want the card), this would make earning dust moot. It would also disincentivize me from buying more packs to get cards. Eventually there would be no point in me playing arena (or paying for it as some do) and there would be no reason to farm anything I desire if I can trade into things that I want more readily. Over time no one would play to earn and there would be no casual crowd to make the game thrive monetarily. Eventually The Beast trading value would be just about even with the dusting value. No one wants that for their game.
when i say there is no economy i am not refering to you giving blizzard money.. i am refering to the economy within the game.. there is none if you have no player interaction or transaction with one another there is no economy.
and to answer someone elses question.. i would prefer to have quests and gold and so on (like i said i am not trying to turn this game into mtg) i enjoy this game. i would just prefer a trade system of some sort over the craft method..
there is positives and negatives to both i agree and yes it could be exploited in its current state to be sure... u could just make tons of new accounts to farm stuff. wouldn't work at all in its current state you are correct there.
the positive to an "economy" though like i stated it balances out the game. not saying it will work on this game because the way its setup is for the exact opposite. trickle down card economics.. lol.....
but you are correct it wouldnt work on this game
not taking anything from this game, i enjoy it quite a bit.
It absolutely wont work in any game where you are having an open market where things can be earned with time vs money.
Again, look up some articles on D3 to see what I am talking about.
I don't seem to understand why having quests/gold is what separates this game from MTG. It's really devaluing your post by even including MTG in the discussion without some reason for it. I tend to use MTG as an example for these points because I am very familiar with it. No live CCG has anything to do with time earned gold/quests. As I stated in my post, there is no way for someone to spend their time doing something other than earning money to earn more cards in MTG, other than trading (which requires earned cards). here I am using more MTG in my posts to elaborate a point -_-
Don't worry bud, HS wont ever become MTG, so there is no need to even have that concern!
MTG just happens to be the best example for this game considering all the mechanics and gameplay they share.
and to answer someone elses question.. i would prefer to have quests and gold and so on (like i said i am not trying to turn this game into mtg) i enjoy this game. i would just prefer a trade system of some sort over the craft method..
That's just not an option, though.
No online card game has ever combined earning cards through gameplay with trading of cards between players, and I doubt any ever will. Reason? Multiple accounts! It would provide a massive incentive to create multiple accounts, either to bot or just to do dailies multiple times if you have lots of free time, and funnel all the rewards to your main account.
You may see a very limited form of trading in such a game. For example in Rise of Mythos you can sell cards on the Auction House.. but buying on the AH requires Gold (their cash shop currency), but the seller is rewarded in Rubies (a lesser currency which is basically only usable for buying packs). So you can't sell a card you don't want and buy one you do; you can only sell a card you don't want and then gamble on buying a booster pack.
But you never see an open exchange of cards between players in F2P games that let you grind cards through time spent playing.
Well, this has turned out to be as mature as can be expected. Sigh. Anyway, to address a few things, I don't see 40 dust as a value. Yes, it's better than nothing, but it's incredibly discouraging to open ten packs and still not have enough dust for an epic. Discouraging, even if it is better than nothing. I'm a CCG and TCG vet, thanks. I know that this shit isn't fair, it's F2P after all. Just venting frustrations. You guys seem to think I got 4 legendaries and could pick what I wanted...I kept 1 of the beast and 1 of gruul, so...yeah. I normally would agree that Hearthstone is still too small, but since we're getting separate boosters for the expansions, confirmed by the developers, we won't get any more value from the original packs. Still gonna be waiting on my shield slam or my first void terror, even 4 expansions in.
Ultimately, I'd just like there to be less grind. Or at least more or purchasable deck slots so I can play with more varied decks to lesson the frustration of the grind.
I know it's hard to deal with (this is why I laid out cash). It also sucks that you got doubles of your legends.
50 dust is about the average per pack. I would suggest that you spend 50 dollars and you would get much of what you desire! If you cannot lay down the cash, then you have no choice but to grind away. i did feel kind of forced into a purchase though (in order to not have to play shock/zoo).
it was the same in LoL for a long time. People didn't have anything and were getting frustrated with the pricing. Maybe Blizz can sell out whole hero sets or even have specific card sales as time goes on, there are many possibilities they can incorporate without adding a potentially game breaking trade function.
Also try playing with friends and practicing for climbs on ranked. It really helps your game and it's generally a fun time!
First off if you're looking to craft cards... try crafting cards for one specific deck first. Lock Zoo, Tempo Mage/Secrets, or Hunter Secrets as they are all relatively cheap to build. That way you at least have a quality deck to climb ranks. Also get good at playing arena, you always get a pack and if you are a decent player each arena run should ultimately pay for itself.
All I'm saying is that if you think the value of a crafting system is terrible and you prefer a trade system, yet you won't spend money to buy packs now, you're going to be in for a world of pain if it went to the trade system. Relevant cards would be much harder to obtain, card prices would be astronomical, and the general price of entry level playing would be higher ( Far greater than just investing $50).
This is a F2P card game, if you don't drop cash on it, you're looking at a real grind. I've played for 4-5 months and I now have every top tier deck built maybe with the exception of missing a legend or two.
The RNG in this game is suboptimal. I'm more referring to how nearly every time I create a new deck and on the first play through I see lots of consecutive cards from the decklist and lots of chunking from the decklist. If the RNG was legit I would've never even noticed this in the first place, let alone see it 80% of the time since. It happens with arena decks too. And please, spare me with the links to wikipedia about confirmation bias and the like, this shit is just poorly coded.
Random number generators are well understood, and tried and tested off-the-shelf code is readily available. There's no chance that the RNG has a problem.
But people always complain about RNG in card-based games like this.
I hope there are better alternative options rather than buying regular packs and pray for a good RNG. Something more expensive but less random like Epic Expert pack: 400 g, contains at least 1 epic card, Legendary Expert pack: 1000 g, contains at least 1 Legendary card or Dust pack: 100 g, contains 150 dusts.
I hope there are better alternative options rather than buying regular packs. Something like Epic Expert pack: 300 g, contains at least 1 epic card, Legendary Expert pack: 1000 g, contains at least 1 Legendary card or Dust pack: 100 g, contains 150 dusts.
I am sure they will incorporate this or a sale system.
Double gold weekend?
When the next "expert" set is released I expect them to have packs purely for the next set of 300+ cards. This will limit your purchase pools.
I really look forward to the future of this game if executed properly!
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You get 4 legendaries and 3 epics and complain? Piss off, I've been grinding F2P Arena since release and still haven't gotten more than 2 legendaries, there's cafting in this game for a reason - just be happy you got 400 dust.
Why would you want a trade system over a crafting system? I understand the desire to want to have something like that BUT you have to think more about what drives the MODO economy... People hardly buy boosters... Most people draft sets, that's how the bulk of the cards get into circulation. Hearthstone doesn't do this. So for starters there would be less cards in circulation. To add to this, card prices would then start to flux and the bulk of all the rares people would pull would ultimately be worth less than they are now with a crafting system. Prices of playable Epics and Legendaries would sky rocket, all other ones would probably have the value of rares now in the crafting system. So right now 4 crappy legends can craft 1 playable legend, but if you wanted a trade system those legendaries would be next to worthless (similar to $1 mythics in Magic)
Long Story Short its easier/cheaper to build a collection with crafting system than MODO style economy.
My Personal Opinion is that People should not be able to craft Foils. That maybe we have an Auction House type environment to buy/sell Foils.
just because something is "worse" doesn't mean that something is "good"
i looked at it like wow!! 4 legendaries, thanks! what to do with these dusts? do i wanna craft legendaries? what if they suck? what if i waste my dusts... lol
Going to throw out there that Naxx is a different approach to opening packs of cards.
Good - No random cards or duplicates. Flat fee (or pay as you go). Fun content to play while you earn the cards.
Bad - Now everyone has the same cards. Everyone has Loatheb. You are not special.
I loved Naxx do not get me wrong, but you feel special when you open a pack and get a legendary, especially one a friend does not have. With Naxx, it evened the playing field with cards that were not all that hard to earn for "Legendary."
Just spend 50 usd in packs for like a full priced triple a game. The quality of hearthstone is worth it imo. What did you expect, its a free to play game
perhaps.. perhaps not.. there is no economy now. so you can't say it would collapse when it isn't present..
one thing that happens when you have an economy in a card game like this is: It puts a supply and demand on top popular cards... currently you can craft any card you want provided you have the dust.. and dust can only be provided via your money or arena.. but realisticly your money for packs and disenchanted extras.
anyways for example: if you have an economy you have fluctuating values of cards based on the meta.. that fluctuating value is what balances out the game. and example of this would be the rise of the hunter popularity.... things like say the eaglethorn bow or flare right now would be worth more than a normal rare or epic... the end result would be not everyone using the same cookie cutter decks because the popluar cards would always be somewhat harder to obtain.. likewise you could take advantage of the popularity by trading said popular card while it was hot.
but anyways... im not saying turn this game into mtg.. not at all i like that its somewhat different.. i do miss the in game chat and trade system though.
i would also like to see some kind of tournament implement.. and not the legendary in ranked i mean an event you pay for and threw elimination there is a winner that takes the prize or top three places anyways...
Serious question: Would you prefer it if..
a) You could trade your duplicates with other players, or sell them; but..
b) There was no way to get booster packs other than paying real cash for them. No grinding gold in-game to buy packs.
Because that's the alternative TCG business model.
If you would prefer that.. well, there's Magic Online, or there's Hex when it hits open beta (which should be very soon).
This is the best logic in this entire thread.
Get with it.
FYI - There is an economy. Spend money, get cards. Spend time, earn cards.
If history can be a teacher, take a look at D3 and how the economy collapsed in 5 days.
In any economy where people can earn things for their time vs money you will have massive in game value inflation because people tend to have more time than money. The game creators don't want that to occur because they would have just flat lined their own game's earning potential. This problem is only multiplied when you realize people can have multiple accounts and can just farm out starting characters for easy gold, gather up quests for questing efficiency or use bots to farm up one account through multiple accounts.
There can be no balance with real world currency when someone can earn with time. There can be no maintained demand with unlimited supply. Right now the only factor incentivizing people to spend money on the game is the time requirement. Remove or reduce the time it requires to get what you want and your game devalues itself.
Trading is used mostly by people pulling packs that have no other method of getting more/newer cards or who have cards they just don't care for. It's generally highly inefficient for earning overall card value, but if you find no use for what you have then you can come out with potentially trading into something you do want. If the economy is based on what people want (supply and demand are also factors here) then there is a real currency backing it. This means that there are 2 forms of currency in a card game: Cards and Money
The factor people don't seem to remember is the limited number of cards in any CCG. The reason older MTG sets (even bad ones) are worth more now than then is because of the fact that there is very little supply of those cards/packs/boxes. Forcing a higher value regardless of the potential value per pack once opened.
IE - Urzas Legacy is worth $20 a pack about at my store. The average value of the cards from a pack of Urzas on the market would be about $3. Packs are worth more unopened than opened for many reasons.
In Hearthstone there are 5 forms of currency at work: Gold, Dust, Currency, Cards and Time.
The only thing keeping cards worth their value is the time it requires to earn them/craft them. Whoever can earn the most stuff on a regular basis would control the economy and eventually deflate the values of all of the unlimited media.
Simple example: I pull a second The Beast. If I dust it it would be worth 400 dust. If I wanted to trade it that value would initially be higher than the dusting value (as there are people who want the card), this would make earning dust moot. It would also disincentivize me from buying more packs to get cards. Eventually there would be no point in me playing arena (or paying for it as some do) and there would be no reason to farm anything I desire if I can trade into things that I want more readily. Over time no one would play to earn and there would be no casual crowd to make the game thrive monetarily.
Eventually The Beast trading value would be just about even with the dusting value. No one wants that for their game.
I WANT FREE EVERYTHING I WANT
when i say there is no economy i am not refering to you giving blizzard money.. i am refering to the economy within the game.. there is none if you have no player interaction or transaction with one another there is no economy.
and to answer someone elses question.. i would prefer to have quests and gold and so on (like i said i am not trying to turn this game into mtg) i enjoy this game. i would just prefer a trade system of some sort over the craft method..
there is positives and negatives to both i agree and yes it could be exploited in its current state to be sure... u could just make tons of new accounts to farm stuff. wouldn't work at all in its current state you are correct there.
the positive to an "economy" though like i stated it balances out the game. not saying it will work on this game because the way its setup is for the exact opposite. trickle down card economics.. lol.....
but you are correct it wouldnt work on this game
not taking anything from this game, i enjoy it quite a bit.
well written reply captain morgan
It absolutely wont work in any game where you are having an open market where things can be earned with time vs money.
Again, look up some articles on D3 to see what I am talking about.
I don't seem to understand why having quests/gold is what separates this game from MTG. It's really devaluing your post by even including MTG in the discussion without some reason for it. I tend to use MTG as an example for these points because I am very familiar with it. No live CCG has anything to do with time earned gold/quests. As I stated in my post, there is no way for someone to spend their time doing something other than earning money to earn more cards in MTG, other than trading (which requires earned cards). here I am using more MTG in my posts to elaborate a point -_-
Don't worry bud, HS wont ever become MTG, so there is no need to even have that concern!
MTG just happens to be the best example for this game considering all the mechanics and gameplay they share.
That's just not an option, though.
No online card game has ever combined earning cards through gameplay with trading of cards between players, and I doubt any ever will. Reason? Multiple accounts! It would provide a massive incentive to create multiple accounts, either to bot or just to do dailies multiple times if you have lots of free time, and funnel all the rewards to your main account.
You may see a very limited form of trading in such a game. For example in Rise of Mythos you can sell cards on the Auction House.. but buying on the AH requires Gold (their cash shop currency), but the seller is rewarded in Rubies (a lesser currency which is basically only usable for buying packs). So you can't sell a card you don't want and buy one you do; you can only sell a card you don't want and then gamble on buying a booster pack.
But you never see an open exchange of cards between players in F2P games that let you grind cards through time spent playing.
Well, this has turned out to be as mature as can be expected. Sigh. Anyway, to address a few things, I don't see 40 dust as a value. Yes, it's better than nothing, but it's incredibly discouraging to open ten packs and still not have enough dust for an epic. Discouraging, even if it is better than nothing. I'm a CCG and TCG vet, thanks. I know that this shit isn't fair, it's F2P after all. Just venting frustrations. You guys seem to think I got 4 legendaries and could pick what I wanted...I kept 1 of the beast and 1 of gruul, so...yeah. I normally would agree that Hearthstone is still too small, but since we're getting separate boosters for the expansions, confirmed by the developers, we won't get any more value from the original packs. Still gonna be waiting on my shield slam or my first void terror, even 4 expansions in.
Ultimately, I'd just like there to be less grind. Or at least more or purchasable deck slots so I can play with more varied decks to lesson the frustration of the grind.
I know it's hard to deal with (this is why I laid out cash). It also sucks that you got doubles of your legends.
50 dust is about the average per pack. I would suggest that you spend 50 dollars and you would get much of what you desire! If you cannot lay down the cash, then you have no choice but to grind away. i did feel kind of forced into a purchase though (in order to not have to play shock/zoo).
it was the same in LoL for a long time. People didn't have anything and were getting frustrated with the pricing. Maybe Blizz can sell out whole hero sets or even have specific card sales as time goes on, there are many possibilities they can incorporate without adding a potentially game breaking trade function.
Also try playing with friends and practicing for climbs on ranked. It really helps your game and it's generally a fun time!
First off if you're looking to craft cards... try crafting cards for one specific deck first. Lock Zoo, Tempo Mage/Secrets, or Hunter Secrets as they are all relatively cheap to build. That way you at least have a quality deck to climb ranks. Also get good at playing arena, you always get a pack and if you are a decent player each arena run should ultimately pay for itself.
All I'm saying is that if you think the value of a crafting system is terrible and you prefer a trade system, yet you won't spend money to buy packs now, you're going to be in for a world of pain if it went to the trade system. Relevant cards would be much harder to obtain, card prices would be astronomical, and the general price of entry level playing would be higher ( Far greater than just investing $50).
This is a F2P card game, if you don't drop cash on it, you're looking at a real grind. I've played for 4-5 months and I now have every top tier deck built maybe with the exception of missing a legend or two.
Random number generators are well understood, and tried and tested off-the-shelf code is readily available. There's no chance that the RNG has a problem.
But people always complain about RNG in card-based games like this.
Have a look at this thread on the MtGO forums: http://community.wizards.com/forum/magic-online-general/threads/1025716
A 48-page thread about the MtGO shuffler. :)
I hope there are better alternative options rather than buying regular packs and pray for a good RNG. Something more expensive but less random like Epic Expert pack: 400 g, contains at least 1 epic card, Legendary Expert pack: 1000 g, contains at least 1 Legendary card or Dust pack: 100 g, contains 150 dusts.
I am sure they will incorporate this or a sale system.
Double gold weekend?
When the next "expert" set is released I expect them to have packs purely for the next set of 300+ cards. This will limit your purchase pools.
I really look forward to the future of this game if executed properly!