Yogg is just a dumb card. I don't want my potential win condition to be pure rng. Even if you win because of Yogg it's not fun for you or the opponent. I swear to god I hate cards like Yogg because they dumb this game down.
Which god do you swear to though, there's like 4 and you just insulted one of them.
Also, yogg is not a win condition, clearly. Consider it your panic button for when you're losing anyway, you either go out in style or turn the tides completely. I can't imagine a card being better than Yogg for that, it's probably being tied with Reno as for gamechanging cards, only for Reno you have to set up your whole deck and Yogg is 'just there'.
But still, if you're losing to an opponent and press that panic button and turn the game around because you get incredibly lucky, do you consider that to be fun? You just won a game purely because you got lucky. I don't consider that to be fun for you or your opponent.
Welp, if I was playing my rogue deck, and the opponent is green Jesus, I would happily take my lucky win ANY DAY over a guaranteed loss.
Pssh... Fun. Heh, try playing rogue against shaman and tell me how fun and rewarding the matches are.
I was about to criticize this topic, but I actually (almost) agree with all of your points. People seem to weirdly treat Yogg-Saron, Hope's End as some kind of finisher, to play after you've played all your spells, but he's much more of a board clear + draw engine to play catch-up with it. Whether he's better than Deathwing or DOOM! I don't know, but I do feel he's at least more fun.
The only thing I kind of disagree with is the idea of playing a ton of spells before playing him; yes, it makes him more consistent, but he also can very quickly become redundant with himself, playing tons of buff or AoE spells after already clearing the board. It's also easy to fall into a kind of trap of "oh, I'll just play these few spells and then Yogg!" when really I would say play him as soon as you've met you're first couple criteria. (And, more importantly, I would put him in already spell heavy decks, rather than building decks around him. I wouldn't say he wins you games, but rather let's you not lose games.)
Lol I see the sarcasm is lost on most of these people. It sounds like you are the guy I played against yesterday...Yogg astral communion'd his hand away, pyroblasted his own face, then 5 or 6 spells that did nothing lol.
There is probably an optimal number of spells you want to be cast to ensure yogg does his job but also prevent overdraw. If he has too many charges, say 30. He will probably overdraw you into fatigue. Too few and he won't impact the board enough to be worthwhile.
I haven't been playing mage lately, but when I was playing a cabalist tome build he usually worked pretty well when I had about 10 cards left in my deck and had cast both tomes.
I feel like it'd have to be a deck that runs about 20 spells and looks to drop him mid game to reset board and recharge hand.
But still, if you're losing to an opponent and press that panic button and turn the game around because you get incredibly lucky, do you consider that to be fun? You just won a game purely because you got lucky. I don't consider that to be fun for you or your opponent.
First, it doesn't take incredible luck to get a good Yogg play. Things are more likely to go your way than not. Furthermore, there is a certain amount of skill in knowing which situations favor Yogg and which do not. If you think this card is a pure RNG coin toss, you are either bad at math or bad at games.
Looking at it from another perspective, do you consider it to be fun when you win a game because you drew, out of 10 remaining in your deck, the only card that could possibly have saved you? That's far, FAR more random and unlikely than letting Yogg do his thing, assuming you've played him into a decent setup.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
A relatively high portion of spells draw you cards.
If you charge yogg up with 40 spells with no cards left, you will die.
It's like saying BGH isn't competitive because you might use it on your own minion. I mean, sure, if you intentionally try to have yogg kill you it isn't hard.
But still, if you're losing to an opponent and press that panic button and turn the game around because you get incredibly lucky, do you consider that to be fun? You just won a game purely because you got lucky. I don't consider that to be fun for you or your opponent.
First, it doesn't take incredible luck to get a good Yogg play. Things are more likely to go your way than not. Furthermore, there is a certain amount of skill in knowing which situations favor Yogg and which do not. If you think this card is a pure RNG coin toss, you are either bad at math or bad at games.
Looking at it from another perspective, do you consider it to be fun when you win a game because you drew, out of 10 remaining in your deck, the only card that could possibly have saved you? That's far, FAR more random and unlikely than letting Yogg do his thing, assuming you've played him into a decent setup.
First of all, I never said you have to be incredibly lucky to have yogg favor you, but what I did say was you have to be incredibly lucky to have yogg turn around a game for you where your opponent is clearly winning.
No, I don't consider it to be fun when I topdeck a win out of ten cards. I don't feel like I deserved that win (unless he's ofcourse playing a brainless deck, or playing terribly). But certain situations of luck are simply unavoidable. However, playing Yogg is basically saying 'Yeah I'll add a card to my deck that can potentially win games for me 'mainly based on luck''.
And sure, there is skill involved to a certain extent when playing yogg. But just because there is a teeny tiny bit of skill involved doesn't make it a less rng based card. It takes basic understanding of math, but the majority of the card still consists of luck. The majority of the time it's simply ''Oh, I've played my spells and my opponent has the board? Yogg time''
Here an example: I have two SI:7 agents and an 8/4 gadgetzan on the board, and a hand full of good cards. He topdecks yogg. Long story short: At the end of his turn he had a 12/7 yogg, 4 cards in hand, I didn't have a board left, I had taken 3 damage and was frozen plus he had a hunter and mage secret up. How is that fun?
Regardless if he actually turns out to be relevant or not (still very skeptical about it), I still think he was such a missed opportunity on a possibly amazing card. But I guess a lot of people play the game solely for the yogg-saron moments, and those tend to bring way more money than the skilled arena player, so i guess i can understand why they made him, as a business decision rather than a development decision.
First of all, I never said you have to be incredibly lucky to have yogg favor you, but what I did say was you have to be incredibly lucky to have yogg turn around a game for you where your opponent is clearly winning.
No, I don't consider it to be fun when I topdeck a win out of ten cards. I don't feel like I deserved that win (unless he's ofcourse playing a brainless deck, or playing terribly). But certain situations of luck are simply unavoidable. However, playing Yogg is basically saying 'Yeah I'll add a card to my deck that can potentially win games for me 'mainly based on luck''.
And sure, there is skill involved to a certain extent when playing yogg. But just because there is a teeny tiny bit of skill involved doesn't make it a less rng based card. It takes basic understanding of math, but the majority of the card still consists of luck. The majority of the time it's simply ''Oh, I've played my spells and my opponent has the board? Yogg time''
Here an example: I have two SI:7 agents and an 8/4 gadgetzan on the board, and a hand full of good cards. He topdecks yogg. Long story short: At the end of his turn he had a 12/7 yogg, 4 cards in hand, I didn't have a board left, I had taken 3 damage and was frozen plus he had a hunter and mage secret up. How is that fun?
If he had played a 20-point C'Thun, you'd be in an equally bad situation. You are getting bent out of shape over something that is not nearly as random or unfair as you believe. You seem to think that anyone who plays Yogg should get punished for using RNG, and you get mad when it doesn't happen.
And no, you do NOT have to be lucky to have Yogg turn a game around for you. It's pretty obvious you haven't used Yogg much (i would venture so far as to say you don't even own it), because if you had, you would know that (as the thread title says) Yogg wins games. Not out of luck, but because it's simply a good card that usually does good things for the one who plays it right.
To be honest in the 3 games i have against yogg, i win because yogg give all the buff to my cards or the opponent die because the fatigue but is a really fun card
I am lovin my Yogg n Load hunter deck. The card makes a heavy spell hunter deck work. I have Maly and Yogg as game finisher's. It gives you a bursty way to beat control and just end games. It's great in hunter because of the lack of card draw, and probably the funnest card i have played in hearthstone. I have tried it in a heavy spell control priest deck and was not so good. If i was behind on board and life he usually helped my opponent. I think of Yogg as a good closer. If you are behind it is 50/50 it will benefit you, but if you need some more cards and need to take advantage he can get you there.
To be honest in the 3 games i have against yogg, i win because yogg give all the buff to my cards or the opponent die because the fatigue but is a really fun card
Ive seen a lot of videos of yogg, he is usually bad when u go ape shit on spells and cast him near fatigue, a hand full of spells seems to be best.
Yeah, this is exactly what I mean when I say he's only good when you know what you're doing.
Anyone who waits until they are down to their last six cards before Yogging is doing it wrong. Either find a way to draw him sooner or stop being greedy and trying to get so many spells out of him. It's a balancing act that takes more than the "tiny amount" of skill some people seem to think.
To be honest in the 3 games i have against yogg, i win because yogg give all the buff to my cards or the opponent die because the fatigue but is a really fun card
Ive seen a lot of videos of yogg, he is usually bad when u go ape shit on spells and cast him near fatigue, a hand full of spells seems to be best.
Yeah, this is exactly what I mean when I say he's only good when you know what you're doing.
Anyone who waits until they are down to their last six cards before Yogging is doing it wrong. Either find a way to draw him sooner or stop being greedy and trying to get so many spells out of him. It's a balancing act that takes more than the "tiny amount" of skill some people seem to think.
Granted, he was the last card I drew and I was going to lose anyway so I kinda just went for it.
I'm 36 - 6 with tempo yogg mage so far, and most of the losses had nothing to do with Yogg.
The tempo mage deck itself is already strong, I only drop Yogg if I need to e.g if there is a certainty I am about to lose.
Usually, at worst, Yogg clears the board and at least gives me the chance to get back in the game, best case scenarios are completely wiping the board and then filling my side with treants or recruits, and/or giving me a full hand of draw, and/or fully healing me. etc
Yeah, it is insane RNG and it has a chance to completely fuck you over, but, if you are already about to lose the game, what's the harm in giving the old RNG mill a go?
Welp, if I was playing my rogue deck, and the opponent is green Jesus, I would happily take my lucky win ANY DAY over a guaranteed loss.
Pssh... Fun. Heh, try playing rogue against shaman and tell me how fun and rewarding the matches are.
Edit: words
I was about to criticize this topic, but I actually (almost) agree with all of your points. People seem to weirdly treat Yogg-Saron, Hope's End as some kind of finisher, to play after you've played all your spells, but he's much more of a board clear + draw engine to play catch-up with it. Whether he's better than Deathwing or DOOM! I don't know, but I do feel he's at least more fun.
The only thing I kind of disagree with is the idea of playing a ton of spells before playing him; yes, it makes him more consistent, but he also can very quickly become redundant with himself, playing tons of buff or AoE spells after already clearing the board. It's also easy to fall into a kind of trap of "oh, I'll just play these few spells and then Yogg!" when really I would say play him as soon as you've met you're first couple criteria. (And, more importantly, I would put him in already spell heavy decks, rather than building decks around him. I wouldn't say he wins you games, but rather let's you not lose games.)
Lol I see the sarcasm is lost on most of these people. It sounds like you are the guy I played against yesterday...Yogg astral communion'd his hand away, pyroblasted his own face, then 5 or 6 spells that did nothing lol.
There is probably an optimal number of spells you want to be cast to ensure yogg does his job but also prevent overdraw. If he has too many charges, say 30. He will probably overdraw you into fatigue. Too few and he won't impact the board enough to be worthwhile.
I haven't been playing mage lately, but when I was playing a cabalist tome build he usually worked pretty well when I had about 10 cards left in my deck and had cast both tomes.
I feel like it'd have to be a deck that runs about 20 spells and looks to drop him mid game to reset board and recharge hand.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Fuck cubelock
Regardless if he actually turns out to be relevant or not (still very skeptical about it), I still think he was such a missed opportunity on a possibly amazing card. But I guess a lot of people play the game solely for the yogg-saron moments, and those tend to bring way more money than the skilled arena player, so i guess i can understand why they made him, as a business decision rather than a development decision.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Yogg casted Sprint and killed me with fatigue damage the other day.....
RIP yogg-saron good things don't last forever :(
To be honest in the 3 games i have against yogg, i win because yogg give all the buff to my cards or the opponent die because the fatigue but is a really fun card
Ive seen a lot of videos of yogg, he is usually bad when u go ape shit on spells and cast him near fatigue, a hand full of spells seems to be best.
I am lovin my Yogg n Load hunter deck. The card makes a heavy spell hunter deck work. I have Maly and Yogg as game finisher's. It gives you a bursty way to beat control and just end games. It's great in hunter because of the lack of card draw, and probably the funnest card i have played in hearthstone. I have tried it in a heavy spell control priest deck and was not so good. If i was behind on board and life he usually helped my opponent. I think of Yogg as a good closer. If you are behind it is 50/50 it will benefit you, but if you need some more cards and need to take advantage he can get you there.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
RIP yogg-saron good things don't last forever :(
I'm 36 - 6 with tempo yogg mage so far, and most of the losses had nothing to do with Yogg.
The tempo mage deck itself is already strong, I only drop Yogg if I need to e.g if there is a certainty I am about to lose.
Usually, at worst, Yogg clears the board and at least gives me the chance to get back in the game, best case scenarios are completely wiping the board and then filling my side with treants or recruits, and/or giving me a full hand of draw, and/or fully healing me. etc
Yeah, it is insane RNG and it has a chance to completely fuck you over, but, if you are already about to lose the game, what's the harm in giving the old RNG mill a go?
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland