After a long journey, I can finally create my own thread for my Demon Hunter class. It's been a rough road, but I'd like to thank everyone who's supported me and gave me feedback.
I'd like to give a shoutout to the following people:
Zanywoop, for literally being there every step of the way, back from the days when I began with my Worgen Hero class.
Mokthol, for your astounding card borders.
And The_Odinson, who helped me with my Classic Set.
The Demon Hunter is a class that revolves around not only control, but the complete lockdown of the opposition. Where control decks like Wallet Warrior or Control Paladin outlast the enemy and start to drop powerful late-game minions, the Demon Hunter wants to completely shut down the opponent as the game progresses.
Mr. Illidan Stormrage
Demonic Power explained:
In WoW lore, the Demon Hunter can actually drain demonic energies out of an enemy, adding to his strength. This is my rendition of it in Hearthstone. This can be a very effective ping, especially early on as you take little to no damage from small minions. However, later on in the game, you lose the small advantage, say, the Druid has, since Illidan's bro can slowly accumulate a bit of armor. You can also boost the few weapons that this class with this Hero Power.
And, of course, we all know Illidan Stormrage already exists. But I've torn my hair up enough of thinking about another Demon Hunter Hero.
Basic Set
Expert Set
Commons
Rares
Epics
The Legendary
Naxxramas
The Common
Metamorphosis explained:
A powerful secret which forces your opponent to choose carefully of what he or she wants to attack. Discarding a card is equal to about 2 mana, as seen from Soulfire. Another spoiler is given below to show you all the possible outcomes. The vast majority of demons are increibly powerful without their drawbacks, so I gave a (2) less mana thing to even this secret out. In addition, deathrattle that summon stuff usually cost 2 less than the original minion: Harvest Golem, Piloted Shredder, etc. THe one thing about this secret is that many Demon Hunter class cards are of low mana. The below chart will show why the low-mana class cards will have an impact on this secret.
Demon chart:
If a 1-Mana minion dies (there are no -1 Mana Demons):
If a 2-Mana minion dies (There are no 0 Mana Demons):
If a 3-Mana minion dies:
If a 4-Mana minion dies:
If a 5-Mana minion dies:
If a 6-Mana minion dies:
If a 7-Mana minion dies:
If a 8-Mana minion dies:
If a 9-Mana minion dies:
If a 10-Mana minion dies:
If a 12+-Mana minion dies:
Goblins vs. Gnomes
Commons
Illidari Peacekeeper explained:
Original card was a 1/4. Although a 2/3 does have more impact on the board, it is also much easier to remove and can be destroyed by many relevant early game cards, such as Darkbomb, Frostbolt, Fiery War Axe, etc. This card has the same amount of impact something like Mechwarper or Northshire Cleric would have. You'd be willing to burn your early-game removal on this, and fast.
Corrupted Portal explained:
A card based off of Deadly Shot. Like Deadly Shot, you have no real way of making sure what card you'll destroy. However, with this card, you have the added handicap of your opponent *knowing* whatever they'll put down will be destroyed. Therefore, the silence helps make up for it.
Rares
Disarm explained:
Here's a little play on words. However, don't let the numbers fool you! And don't you dare compare this card to Moonfire. Compare Disarm to Rockbiter Weapon and Inner Rage. Compared to Rockbiter. you get 3 damage, but the limitations are that it must be your Hero that uses the three damage, and you need a friendly minion on the field. Compared to Inner Rage, you do get 1 more point of damage. but your Hero will take damage while attacking.
Infernal Nommer explained:
Here's a bit of anti-weapon tech. Pretty straightforward. This minion will always be a meta call. Nommer's name comes from him eating the weapon and giving you back the leftovers. I can imagine the animation in-game. :P The jaw animation from Bite or Claw over the weapon. That would look so cool.
Scrap Reaver explained:
I simplified this card TONS. Originally, you would deal 2 damage randomly for each Spare Part played. In World of Warcraft, your character has to pilot one of these things at some point to defeat this other big mech thing. That's represented here as a Mech-only Emperor Cobra. So yeah, another flavour card.
Epics
Cripple explained:
Another powerful secret. Discarding a card costs about 2 mana, as seen from Soulfire. As with all secrets, it can be played around. For example, your opponent just wants to taunt up against you. Another scenario would be dropping something small with a powerful battlecry, such as Ironbeak Owl.
Warglaives of Azzinoth explained:
A flavour card. During the boss fight, Illidan throws down his warglaives and summons two massive Flames of Azzinoth which you must defeat first. This card was originally 6 mana.
The Legendary
Maiev Shadowsong explained:
Maiev is a tough card to analyze. She seems extremely power at first. However, further thought shows that she is more balanced the she first looks. Vanish costs 6 mana and will always result in a board clear. Maiev will leave a random enemy on the board, which could be enough to hit through her. In addition, she weakens if you already have minions on the field. Demon Hunter's main strategy *requires* minions on the field, so chances are you'll have at least one other minion on the field already.
And as everyone knows, Illidan/Maiev is the only way to go. :P
Blackrock Mountain
The Common
Infernal Aegis explained:
This is another odd card. I'm actually going to compare it to Mortal Coil. This card forces your opponent to attack you with something a substantial amount of Attack, or they'll give you a card draw. Mortal Coil kind of does this by knocking off a weaker minion and giving you a card draw. It's a stretch, but it is the closest comparison I can make. In addition, this is another flavour card. Most Demon Hunters are able to create shields of flame.
I feel I would die to my "Your are not Prepared!" more often than nought. Cool deck, lots of flavor. Maiev Shadowsong is great for a comeback card when your opponents board is full, Just got to be careful about them starting some nasty battlecry loop that beats your face in.
@jenkinspaool: Thanks for the feedback. Would that secret be too strong then? I thought that since it's powerful, it would be commonly run so your opponent would often check for it, which would result in you taking 5 damage for countering a small minion. As for the Maiev loop thing, I always imagined that your opponent wouldn't even be able to summon anything, kind of like how when your board is full.
The way it read to me is that your opponent can play a card, but that after it ETB one at random would bounce back. Since there is a clarifier that states that any surplus would bounce, it tells me that play is legal.
Maybe instead have...
Ability 1: Battlecry: Return at random your enemies minions until they equal yours.
Ability 2: Your opponent cannot play more creatures than you have in play.
or some variation of this if this was your intention.
And the secret is fine, I was just making note that I would probably make some god awful move where I played that with under 15hp left and kill myself after taking additional damage. The card is fine and as long as you play it early enough to where you gain early game tempo (since this deck seems to take early tempo and never let the opponent get it back) then it is totally worth it.
I know I'm not the first to tell you this, but a lot of your cards feel unrealistically wordy. I know that's got to be difficult to deal with when it comes to your Secrets because Secrets are usually wordier cards in general and you have the extra burden that you've decided that your Secrets will be lower-cost in exchange for also coming with downsides (which is a super cool idea, by the way!), but still try to cut down on it when you can. For example, you could just replace "transform it into" with "summon" and be fine.
Attacks and minion effects can't be countered. That's just not what the Counter keyword does. The in-game definition of Counter is that "A card that is Countered has no effect." There is no indication that anything other than a card can be countered.
I'm not quite certain if it's your intention here, but this minion is going to give you a spare part even if your opponent has no weapon. If that's not what you intend (and I think it'd make much more thematic sense and be much cuter in general it it weren't), then I'd suggest the alternate wording "Battlecry: If your opponent has a weapon, destroy it and add a Spare Part to your hand."
This is another excessively wordy card, and it's even causing some aesthetically undesirable graphical overlap here. I'd say just remove the second sentence entirely. Really, the first is unique enough on its own that you really don't need all of that extra. Keep it simple. Also, I think the card is under-powered and you could get away with giving it another point of either Attack or Health.
There are only two minions in the game with more than one non-keyworded effect, Ragnaros the Firelord and Mal'Ganis, and they're both Legendary. I used to complain about this is a lot for the Weekly Design Competition was people submitting cards that just did too much stuff.
@Asylum_Rhampody: Thanks for the big review, I am a bit busy atm, but I'll be sure to make a full response and adjust some of my cards according to your ideas. I will say, however, that I always saw "Counter" as equaling "cancel", which was the basis for a lot of my cards.
Finished half of the writeups and made some minor balance changes. Took into account Asylum's feedback. However, I was unable to change Maiev's card text. Sorry, Jenkins, your suggestion took up nearly 6 lines and I couldn't shorten it enough.
Finished half of the writeups and made some minor balance changes. Took into account Asylum's feedback. However, I was unable to change Maiev's card text. Sorry, Jenkins, your suggestion took up nearly 6 lines and I couldn't shorten it enough.
All good, hard to get your point across on small little cards :D
I find this fairly balanced. You're forced to hit minions with this, or else it's just a worse Druid Hero Power. Furthermore, you're not always going to be hitting 1/1's. Restore 2 Health, I guess?
All my secrets must include a drawback. Therefore, I can't just let it go for a random 1-cost minion. I've also seen people do the Hero Change, and I don't want to copy that idea. And honestly? A Hero change card on an Epic is not a good idea.
Commons
Counter, in my eyes, will just mean "cancel".
All secrets can be played around. If it's strong, then people will expect it and play around it.
I was considering bumping this up to 7 mana.
It is not broken. Vanish costs 6 mana, and will always return all minions to your opponent's hand. Maeiv costs 6 as well, but will always leave at least 1 enemy minion there. In addition, the more minions you had before, the less effective she is.
You're supposed to ship Illidan/Maiev.
I want a continuous effect.
Battlecry: Give the next minion your opponent plays -1 Attack.
I want that continuous effect. I'll consider going down to 6 Health.
Don't compare it to a useless card like Recycle, compare it to a relevant card like Sap. Sap is 2 mana, you drawing a card is about 1 mana. So, to deny an opponents draw would be about 2 mana.
No. It's meant to limit hand size.
I really, really don't see where you get your balancing from. You take an extra two to the face, which is the same thing as Holy Smite. 1 mana, 2 damage. The only thing I could change is the fact it'll proc on face damage, not minion.
The "next". So, of course, only the next Spell.
I *guess* I can make it the next turn's spell... But I mean, Counterspell is in the game, and so is Loatheb...
This wording was copied from Humility. It should be straightforward enough.
I'll make it a 4/3.
I can knock it down to a 2/2. But, honestly, it's just a variant of Acolyte of Pain. Anyone who's run into a warrior knows you burn a card on the 1/3 body and they still draw a card. It's the same thing here.
All classes with secrets will have a lot of cards with the same mana cost. If THIS is OP, then what's Flamewaker? Casting spells is a whole lot easier than countering cards.
Honestly, go for the 3/2.
Epics
I can change their Attack to 0, which might be a better choice.
All secrets are incredibly powerful when you misplay into them... I mean, I see that this card is strong, and I might change it, but Secrets are meant to be very strong if played in your favour.
Spectral vision seems to be just a step up from mass dispel because the Gem count is only 2 and mass dispels is 4. I really like this card because the only disadvantage is the opponent draws a card but it's not that bad
@Tetsuo_1G: That's exactly the idea I was going for. Mass Dispel on paper is good, but 4 mana for a silence all is not worth it. Mass Dispel's main feature is not the card draw, it's the silence. Therefore, I'd rather have a cheap silence all with a disadvantage than an expensive one with a slight bonus.
I would suggest replacing Counter with a new keyword, Evasion or Evasive. It would read similar to: Evasion: Character ignores the first instance of damage from an enemy character's attack on your opponents turn.
Alternately it could be the first instance of damage, but your wording on the cards makes it look like you want it to interact specifically with attacks. This wording would help differentiate it from the similar divine shield, since you can't 'cash in' your evasion against a bigger minion and have your evasion minion survive. But it also can hit the smaller minions and still have evasion now that your opponent only has bigger minions to deal with your evasion minion.
As it is, the counter keyword has a very specific meaning, and trying to cram extra meaning into it would make it confusing and bloated.
Overview
After a long journey, I can finally create my own thread for my Demon Hunter class. It's been a rough road, but I'd like to thank everyone who's supported me and gave me feedback.
I'd like to give a shoutout to the following people:
The Demon Hunter is a class that revolves around not only control, but the complete lockdown of the opposition. Where control decks like Wallet Warrior or Control Paladin outlast the enemy and start to drop powerful late-game minions, the Demon Hunter wants to completely shut down the opponent as the game progresses.
Mr. Illidan Stormrage
Demonic Power explained:
In WoW lore, the Demon Hunter can actually drain demonic energies out of an enemy, adding to his strength. This is my rendition of it in Hearthstone. This can be a very effective ping, especially early on as you take little to no damage from small minions. However, later on in the game, you lose the small advantage, say, the Druid has, since Illidan's bro can slowly accumulate a bit of armor. You can also boost the few weapons that this class with this Hero Power.
And, of course, we all know Illidan Stormrage already exists. But I've torn my hair up enough of thinking about another Demon Hunter Hero.
Basic Set
Expert Set
Commons
Rares
Epics
The Legendary
Naxxramas
The Common
Metamorphosis explained:
A powerful secret which forces your opponent to choose carefully of what he or she wants to attack. Discarding a card is equal to about 2 mana, as seen from Soulfire. Another spoiler is given below to show you all the possible outcomes. The vast majority of demons are increibly powerful without their drawbacks, so I gave a (2) less mana thing to even this secret out. In addition, deathrattle that summon stuff usually cost 2 less than the original minion: Harvest Golem, Piloted Shredder, etc. THe one thing about this secret is that many Demon Hunter class cards are of low mana. The below chart will show why the low-mana class cards will have an impact on this secret.
Demon chart:
If a 1-Mana minion dies (there are no -1 Mana Demons):
If a 2-Mana minion dies (There are no 0 Mana Demons):
If a 3-Mana minion dies:
If a 4-Mana minion dies:
If a 5-Mana minion dies:
If a 6-Mana minion dies:
If a 7-Mana minion dies:
If a 8-Mana minion dies:
If a 9-Mana minion dies:
If a 10-Mana minion dies:
If a 12+-Mana minion dies:
Goblins vs. Gnomes
Commons
Illidari Peacekeeper explained:
Original card was a 1/4. Although a 2/3 does have more impact on the board, it is also much easier to remove and can be destroyed by many relevant early game cards, such as Darkbomb, Frostbolt, Fiery War Axe, etc. This card has the same amount of impact something like Mechwarper or Northshire Cleric would have. You'd be willing to burn your early-game removal on this, and fast.
Corrupted Portal explained:
A card based off of Deadly Shot. Like Deadly Shot, you have no real way of making sure what card you'll destroy. However, with this card, you have the added handicap of your opponent *knowing* whatever they'll put down will be destroyed. Therefore, the silence helps make up for it.
Rares
Disarm explained:
Here's a little play on words. However, don't let the numbers fool you! And don't you dare compare this card to Moonfire. Compare Disarm to Rockbiter Weapon and Inner Rage. Compared to Rockbiter. you get 3 damage, but the limitations are that it must be your Hero that uses the three damage, and you need a friendly minion on the field. Compared to Inner Rage, you do get 1 more point of damage. but your Hero will take damage while attacking.
Infernal Nommer explained:
Here's a bit of anti-weapon tech. Pretty straightforward. This minion will always be a meta call. Nommer's name comes from him eating the weapon and giving you back the leftovers. I can imagine the animation in-game. :P The jaw animation from Bite or Claw over the weapon. That would look so cool.
Scrap Reaver explained:
I simplified this card TONS. Originally, you would deal 2 damage randomly for each Spare Part played. In World of Warcraft, your character has to pilot one of these things at some point to defeat this other big mech thing. That's represented here as a Mech-only Emperor Cobra. So yeah, another flavour card.
Epics
Cripple explained:
Another powerful secret. Discarding a card costs about 2 mana, as seen from Soulfire. As with all secrets, it can be played around. For example, your opponent just wants to taunt up against you. Another scenario would be dropping something small with a powerful battlecry, such as Ironbeak Owl.
Warglaives of Azzinoth explained:
A flavour card. During the boss fight, Illidan throws down his warglaives and summons two massive Flames of Azzinoth which you must defeat first. This card was originally 6 mana.
The Legendary
Maiev Shadowsong explained:
Maiev is a tough card to analyze. She seems extremely power at first. However, further thought shows that she is more balanced the she first looks. Vanish costs 6 mana and will always result in a board clear. Maiev will leave a random enemy on the board, which could be enough to hit through her. In addition, she weakens if you already have minions on the field. Demon Hunter's main strategy *requires* minions on the field, so chances are you'll have at least one other minion on the field already.
And as everyone knows, Illidan/Maiev is the only way to go. :P
Blackrock Mountain
The Common
Infernal Aegis explained:
This is another odd card. I'm actually going to compare it to Mortal Coil. This card forces your opponent to attack you with something a substantial amount of Attack, or they'll give you a card draw. Mortal Coil kind of does this by knocking off a weaker minion and giving you a card draw. It's a stretch, but it is the closest comparison I can make. In addition, this is another flavour card. Most Demon Hunters are able to create shields of flame.
The Rare
I feel I would die to my "Your are not Prepared!" more often than nought. Cool deck, lots of flavor. Maiev Shadowsong is great for a comeback card when your opponents board is full, Just got to be careful about them starting some nasty battlecry loop that beats your face in.
@Squiddylicious: Couldn't help it. XD
@jenkinspaool: Thanks for the feedback. Would that secret be too strong then? I thought that since it's powerful, it would be commonly run so your opponent would often check for it, which would result in you taking 5 damage for countering a small minion. As for the Maiev loop thing, I always imagined that your opponent wouldn't even be able to summon anything, kind of like how when your board is full.
The way it read to me is that your opponent can play a card, but that after it ETB one at random would bounce back. Since there is a clarifier that states that any surplus would bounce, it tells me that play is legal.
Maybe instead have...
Ability 1: Battlecry: Return at random your enemies minions until they equal yours.
Ability 2: Your opponent cannot play more creatures than you have in play.
or some variation of this if this was your intention.
And the secret is fine, I was just making note that I would probably make some god awful move where I played that with under 15hp left and kill myself after taking additional damage. The card is fine and as long as you play it early enough to where you gain early game tempo (since this deck seems to take early tempo and never let the opponent get it back) then it is totally worth it.
i like
Some initial thoughts on your new cards...
I know I'm not the first to tell you this, but a lot of your cards feel unrealistically wordy. I know that's got to be difficult to deal with when it comes to your Secrets because Secrets are usually wordier cards in general and you have the extra burden that you've decided that your Secrets will be lower-cost in exchange for also coming with downsides (which is a super cool idea, by the way!), but still try to cut down on it when you can. For example, you could just replace "transform it into" with "summon" and be fine.
Attacks and minion effects can't be countered. That's just not what the Counter keyword does. The in-game definition of Counter is that "A card that is Countered has no effect." There is no indication that anything other than a card can be countered.
I'm not quite certain if it's your intention here, but this minion is going to give you a spare part even if your opponent has no weapon. If that's not what you intend (and I think it'd make much more thematic sense and be much cuter in general it it weren't), then I'd suggest the alternate wording "Battlecry: If your opponent has a weapon, destroy it and add a Spare Part to your hand."
This is another excessively wordy card, and it's even causing some aesthetically undesirable graphical overlap here. I'd say just remove the second sentence entirely. Really, the first is unique enough on its own that you really don't need all of that extra. Keep it simple. Also, I think the card is under-powered and you could get away with giving it another point of either Attack or Health.
There are only two minions in the game with more than one non-keyworded effect, Ragnaros the Firelord and Mal'Ganis, and they're both Legendary. I used to complain about this is a lot for the Weekly Design Competition was people submitting cards that just did too much stuff.
@Asylum_Rhampody: Thanks for the big review, I am a bit busy atm, but I'll be sure to make a full response and adjust some of my cards according to your ideas. I will say, however, that I always saw "Counter" as equaling "cancel", which was the basis for a lot of my cards.
Finished half of the writeups and made some minor balance changes. Took into account Asylum's feedback. However, I was unable to change Maiev's card text. Sorry, Jenkins, your suggestion took up nearly 6 lines and I couldn't shorten it enough.
All good, hard to get your point across on small little cards :D
Spectral vision seems to be just a step up from mass dispel because the Gem count is only 2 and mass dispels is 4. I really like this card because the only disadvantage is the opponent draws a card but it's not that bad
@Tetsuo_1G: That's exactly the idea I was going for. Mass Dispel on paper is good, but 4 mana for a silence all is not worth it. Mass Dispel's main feature is not the card draw, it's the silence. Therefore, I'd rather have a cheap silence all with a disadvantage than an expensive one with a slight bonus.
The name and graphics of the "Infernal Nommer" are just too silly. Something like the "Infernal Hungerer" would fit better IMHO.
What is the lore explanation/background of "Outland Paradox"?
@CaptainInfested: I have an incredibly silly idea for replacing the Nommer. :P
As for Outland Paradox, it's just something I came off the top of my head. Most of the cards here exist in WoW, but this one is not one of them.
the peacekeeper art is from another card game called Legends of the five rings
specifically "Shiba Tsukimi"
http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Shiba_Tsukimi
GOOD JOB in the class creation
I would suggest replacing Counter with a new keyword, Evasion or Evasive. It would read similar to: Evasion: Character ignores the first instance of damage from an enemy character's attack on your opponents turn.
Alternately it could be the first instance of damage, but your wording on the cards makes it look like you want it to interact specifically with attacks. This wording would help differentiate it from the similar divine shield, since you can't 'cash in' your evasion against a bigger minion and have your evasion minion survive. But it also can hit the smaller minions and still have evasion now that your opponent only has bigger minions to deal with your evasion minion.
As it is, the counter keyword has a very specific meaning, and trying to cram extra meaning into it would make it confusing and bloated.
Made some tweaks that I was unable to do in time for the class competition. Almost ready, I think, for playtesting.