It is my opinion that Faceless Manipulator might be the overall best value card in the game.
Hear me out. As time goes on, more and more players have and play with more and more high value (game changing) minions. It is now to the point that practically every game I play, my opponent drops a minion worth cloning on turn 6+. With the manipulator, not only do you get to match their power play for cheaper, you get first usage (with exception of Rags and a few others (but even there you get first opportunity to Rag their Rag)) of the minion. Oh yea, and you dont have to own all of those legendaries to be able to use them.
If your deck has cheap neutralizers (naturalize, hex, etc) you can clone and then neutralize their minion. This swing is almost always enough to change the momentum in your favor, and usually results in a win for me. Because of this I find it difficult not to put 2 in every deck, and rarely regret it. Once I cloned 2 Marlornes on the same turn. You guessed it, I won.
As the game progresses and more BA cards come out, the manipulator's value just goes up.
Anybody else use them a lot with the same results?
It is a very reactive card in the sense that you can never play it without your opponent having a big value target on the board.
So no it is by no means the best value minion in the game. It is a fun mechanic and super situational but can sometimes be incredibly good. But sometimes equals to not consistent and not consistent equals to basically not worth running.
You are correct that has less value against aggro decks, but I'm not just sitting around waiting to respond. It is assumed that you have cloneworthy minions in your own deck.
I'll stick one in most of my non-aggro decks simply because they do have such great potential to regain tempo. Few better feelings that Faceless + BGH on an opponent's Rag or Malorne.
It's a staple in any Paladin deck too. I've had many games where I copied my own Tirion or Sylvanas and dominated the board.
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It is a very reactive card in the sense that you can never play it without your opponent having a big value target on the board.
So no it is by no means the best value minion in the game. It is a fun mechanic and super situational but can sometimes be incredibly good. But sometimes equals to not consistent and not consistent equals to basically not worth running.
You are correct that has less value against aggro decks, but I'm not just sitting around waiting to respond. It is assumed that you have cloneworthy minions in your own deck.
If you can take the time to use 11+ mana only on minions that do nothing on the turn they are played, you have already won BY FAR against aggro. In others words, your counterargument makes no sense; It's still a bad card against aggro.
While faceless used to be greedy, but still good enough to get run, it just got too situational.
Imo, it's just not worth a slot currently. Many of the strongest cards currently have very significant battlecries and/or are finishers, and faceless isn't good against either.
Sure, early on, you will have some crazy copies with it and think it's great, but once you get better, you will start to put in cards that are more consistent and very fast, it won't be in any of your decks anymore. Trust me, the same happened to me.
because faceless manipulator is strictly a reactionary card (copy your foes minion then kill it with remaining mana, say a bgh combo) sounds not very consistent in this tempo/mech meta for a ladder climbing deck (other than in a handlock deck for other reasons)as it has a REALLY bad value against aggro/tempo. Versus aggro the only way to get value is to copy your own 'high cost' minion but that's way to slow and you will of lost by than. To me it all depends on what your playing as cloning your own minions is a 'win more' technique rather than a tempo changer (so your therefore counting on your opponents deck to be 'heavy') so you can pull of the copy/remove technique.
only at the lower ranks I can see people using more high cost legendary cards just because over time their collection grew. Also over time if blizzard makes more low cost legendary cards and people are using them 'just because they are legendary' - then naturally faceless manipulators value could in theory depreciate on that logic.
He's definitely a big winner though in control vs control matchups (if your class has cheap removal like warrior or priest to combo faceless manipulator with or a BGH). In a control orientated meta he might be MVP of HS alongside: Sylvanas and BGH in my opinion in overall value.
some other effective 'big play tech cards' Harrison jones, mind control tech, blood knight, bgh, tbk and probably forgetting a few depending on the meta may more consistently get big value even if faceless manipulator gets bigger value. bigger value may always not be better value.
Also because battlcry's are one of the games only remaining mechanics without a solid counter (nerubian weblord garbage doesn't count lol) I can see down the road there being some kind of counter to battlecries. this could end up serving as a nerf to faceless manipulator
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It is my opinion that Faceless Manipulator might be the overall best value card in the game.
Hear me out. As time goes on, more and more players have and play with more and more high value (game changing) minions. It is now to the point that practically every game I play, my opponent drops a minion worth cloning on turn 6+. With the manipulator, not only do you get to match their power play for cheaper, you get first usage (with exception of Rags and a few others (but even there you get first opportunity to Rag their Rag)) of the minion. Oh yea, and you dont have to own all of those legendaries to be able to use them.
If your deck has cheap neutralizers (naturalize, hex, etc) you can clone and then neutralize their minion. This swing is almost always enough to change the momentum in your favor, and usually results in a win for me. Because of this I find it difficult not to put 2 in every deck, and rarely regret it. Once I cloned 2 Marlornes on the same turn. You guessed it, I won.
As the game progresses and more BA cards come out, the manipulator's value just goes up.
Anybody else use them a lot with the same results?
But it lacks synergy with the rest of your deck.
Quote from Mister_Smith»
You are correct that has less value against aggro decks, but I'm not just sitting around waiting to respond. It is assumed that you have cloneworthy minions in your own deck.
Thats what I mean. Soooooo much potential value in any given game.
I'll stick one in most of my non-aggro decks simply because they do have such great potential to regain tempo. Few better feelings that Faceless + BGH on an opponent's Rag or Malorne.
It's a staple in any Paladin deck too. I've had many games where I copied my own Tirion or Sylvanas and dominated the board.
Building Quirky Decks Every Week, Loving Life at Rank 15!
If you can take the time to use 11+ mana only on minions that do nothing on the turn they are played, you have already won BY FAR against aggro. In others words, your counterargument makes no sense; It's still a bad card against aggro.
While faceless used to be greedy, but still good enough to get run, it just got too situational.
Imo, it's just not worth a slot currently. Many of the strongest cards currently have very significant battlecries and/or are finishers, and faceless isn't good against either.
Sure, early on, you will have some crazy copies with it and think it's great, but once you get better, you will start to put in cards that are more consistent and very fast, it won't be in any of your decks anymore. Trust me, the same happened to me.
It can bring enough value. But it is a slow minion. Of course, Faceless on a Ragnaros is fun. But... it's not happening all day.
Used to be a proud Handlock player.
Legend 17 times.
Still flirting with the ladder from times to times with Renolock.
because faceless manipulator is strictly a reactionary card (copy your foes minion then kill it with remaining mana, say a bgh combo) sounds not very consistent in this tempo/mech meta for a ladder climbing deck (other than in a handlock deck for other reasons)as it has a REALLY bad value against aggro/tempo. Versus aggro the only way to get value is to copy your own 'high cost' minion but that's way to slow and you will of lost by than. To me it all depends on what your playing as cloning your own minions is a 'win more' technique rather than a tempo changer (so your therefore counting on your opponents deck to be 'heavy') so you can pull of the copy/remove technique.
only at the lower ranks I can see people using more high cost legendary cards just because over time their collection grew. Also over time if blizzard makes more low cost legendary cards and people are using them 'just because they are legendary' - then naturally faceless manipulators value could in theory depreciate on that logic.
He's definitely a big winner though in control vs control matchups (if your class has cheap removal like warrior or priest to combo faceless manipulator with or a BGH). In a control orientated meta he might be MVP of HS alongside: Sylvanas and BGH in my opinion in overall value.
some other effective 'big play tech cards' Harrison jones, mind control tech, blood knight, bgh, tbk and probably forgetting a few depending on the meta may more consistently get big value even if faceless manipulator gets bigger value. bigger value may always not be better value.
Also because battlcry's are one of the games only remaining mechanics without a solid counter (nerubian weblord garbage doesn't count lol) I can see down the road there being some kind of counter to battlecries. this could end up serving as a nerf to faceless manipulator