My thought would be, "when an opponent plays a card they instead play a card of the same cost"
Still feels powerful and flavorful, but easier for opponents to combat. Playing a random minion is much less downside than a random spell.
There is no need to nerf it.
Yes, it is, the other secrets are stronger for 1 mana but ok, OMY is a 3 manas secret for 1 mana often put in play for 0. need to be massively overnerfed now.
The amount of time oh my yogg backfired for me when facing a paladin was incredibly low. The amount advantage a lot of time i get from "oh my yog" is pretty solid. Its ok card i dont see why would u nerf it at all.
A few things. First zero sum game doesn't mean bad outcome it means any gains come at the direct expense of one side with expected value zero (its a game theory term in economics) two card examples: If I play a minion with some benefit to me that would not be zero sum, it would be strictly beneficial to me. If I cast a truly random spell, with truly random targets on a truly random board that would be zero sum (yes I know there is no such thing but this is a thought exercise). The effects of oh my yogg that mirror counterspell are in no way zero sum (numbered 1-4 by me) effect 5 is (or is at least close to on one side or the other). In order to 'effectively' counterplay oh my yogg, you need to know that the secret your opponent has is oh my yogg (otherwise you are restricting your play to say 5 cost spells if you are looking for desirable effects - - and even then there are still decent odds you are targeting a board clear and get a buff or visa versa - - then oh my yogg doesn't trigger and you just badly misplayed your turn). This idea that anyone at any rank can just waive a magic want and perfectly counterplay counterspell or oh my yogg is simply nonsense (I was mid legend on a secret mage standard last season and people mucked up turns for fear of counterspell all the time - it's why secret mage had (and has) noticibly better win odds going second, because coin gave a free counterspell test).
Wow... I just noticed you literally said 'keep the coin to do so' so basically you are conceding that the card is a problem the 50% of the time you don't get the coin.... Even that is enough to mandate a nerf... And by the way testing oh my yogg with coin works as you said because of the small zero mana card pool. Try testing with coin in wild :P bad idea.
Lets refocus to my actual advice:
Oh my yogg is a 2 mana cheaper counterspell with an effect that (unless you happen to go second and are playing standard) is zero sum (again not saying bad, saying expected value zero with someone getting hurt). Paladin is not weak at the moment (and secret paladin is a thing) so nerfs are likely to improve odds for other classes - which is desirable.
My proposed nerf was: keep oh my yogg the same in current effects, have it add a 1 mana card that reads: discover a spell from your class to the casters hand.
All effects but 3 from my OP remain the same and reversing 3 means spending the same mana that was spent on oh my yogg.
While i realize a zero sum game is one player loses the exact amount the other player wins (I know i messed my response up a little here), the point stand that OMY won't be anymore of a zero sum game than any other card in the game. You even say that yourself. The fact is that OMY even without the coin is incredibly easy to play around in the current meta. One or two decks will have problems, but they have to keep cheap spells to check. Good players will because the expect OMY, bad players won't. And having a card which is good against most decks is not necessary bad. You'll need to play around it, as you need to play around any good card in any deck. There is nothing wrong with that, even though Blizzard seems to want to take the game in another direction.
You keep saying it is a counterspell, and even though you state the obvious difference you don't seem to value that difference. It is huge. While you can have a game losing outcome, you'll more often than not get something in the same power level. And you can even get something better. That is not countspell, if you play it right. Does that mean people will play suboptimaly, yes, but that is the power of secrets, and that is what you pay for with a delayed effect
Besides testing with coin in wild. Have you tried it? I don't think you have, because as a legend wild player i actually have, quite often and it is not bad, if you know what you are doing. But even if it were it would not matter because wild is a side mode to make some cards game defining powerful and OMY is nowhere near
In the end OMY is not the first Paladin card which should be nerfed. But paladin should be nerfed
Yea its totally fucking ok to have 60% of games being vs paladin :). You fucking imbecils paladin should have atleast 3 more cards nerfed because the deck doesnt have a single counter :). Fucking understand that you cannot get legend without playing 5x same time as only paladin :).
Yea its totally fucking ok to have 60% of games being vs paladin :). You fucking imbecils paladin should have atleast 3 more cards nerfed because the deck doesnt have a single counter :). Fucking understand that you cannot get legend without playing 5x same time as only paladin :).
Pointing to other problems doesn't actually discuss this one. Yes, there is a problem with librams. There is also a BIG problem with oh my yogg.
A few replies to the above:
1. Making the effect truly random (any spell any level) would actually be a buff to oh my yogg in higher leagues of standard (where knowledge of the limited card pool makes it at least semi predictable).
2. In terms of it being a mage spell, that makes the card pool per cost tiny (and if it's any cost then coin basically turns oh my yogg into a crazy burn to the pally or their minions- likely and in doing so will end all play of oh my yogg), either way, yogg becomes instant garbage in standard and still has the same problems in wild.
3. Saying ppl can play around counterspell fundementally understates it's impact. Again I was secret mage in legend (standard) last season and lots of players messed up their turns trying to play around the possibility of a counterspell (I would generally avoid playing my 2nd counterspell until an emergency or until endgame because triggering the second counter would allow my opponent to stop making poor plays out of fear - - and this is again in LEGEND). That said, counterspell is a fair (really annoying but fair) card. Many spells it counters cost less than it, decent play choices prevent the losses of your top spells, and there is an implicit requirement of a secret heavy deck (otherwise the fact it is a counter is obvious and it's value is defeated - - and this is undesirable in many mage builds).
None of this is true for oh my yogg. All paladins have 3+ diff secrets they want to (or would be happy to) play (especially with sword being able to remove them from deck to prevent later game draws) . Almost nothing (unless you are lucky enough to have the coin) costs less than oh my yogg (so it rarely represents a loss of mana).
4. The idea that SOMETIMES oh my yogg helps the spells caster represents a complete failure to even attempt to see the card clearly. It's not about the times it looses a game for the pally or the times it wins the game for the pally, or anything in between. It's about the fact that it is a 1 mana counterspell without a strict (or even probable) penalty.
Also I have tested coin in wild, twice. The first time I lost all my mana to destroy my own minion, the second time I lost all my mana and healed for 8 health.... Never testing with coin again in wild, it cost me the game both times.
I would not nerf it. Don´t get me wrong, i HATE that card, but you can´t just nerf whatever makes the game slightly more challenging.
Saddly enough, it seems that most people want to win games effortlessly. Of course i´m sure they don´t behave like that at work, school or in life in general.........or do they???.......na
I don't necessarily want it nerfed, but sped up. I've had turns time out because the animation is so slow. Considering you have to wait out the full animation to see the outcome, in order to react, it's a problem
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when opponent plays a second spell a turn
There is no need to nerf it.
Greed 3Head priest players should get punished, so nerf is not needed.
Yes, it is, the other secrets are stronger for 1 mana but ok, OMY is a 3 manas secret for 1 mana often put in play for 0. need to be massively overnerfed now.
It's really easy to play around. As long as you aren't throwing cards out blindly and actually expect it to be a possibility.
The amount of time oh my yogg backfired for me when facing a paladin was incredibly low. The amount advantage a lot of time i get from "oh my yog" is pretty solid. Its ok card i dont see why would u nerf it at all.
While i realize a zero sum game is one player loses the exact amount the other player wins (I know i messed my response up a little here), the point stand that OMY won't be anymore of a zero sum game than any other card in the game. You even say that yourself. The fact is that OMY even without the coin is incredibly easy to play around in the current meta. One or two decks will have problems, but they have to keep cheap spells to check. Good players will because the expect OMY, bad players won't. And having a card which is good against most decks is not necessary bad. You'll need to play around it, as you need to play around any good card in any deck. There is nothing wrong with that, even though Blizzard seems to want to take the game in another direction.
You keep saying it is a counterspell, and even though you state the obvious difference you don't seem to value that difference. It is huge. While you can have a game losing outcome, you'll more often than not get something in the same power level. And you can even get something better. That is not countspell, if you play it right. Does that mean people will play suboptimaly, yes, but that is the power of secrets, and that is what you pay for with a delayed effect
Besides testing with coin in wild. Have you tried it? I don't think you have, because as a legend wild player i actually have, quite often and it is not bad, if you know what you are doing. But even if it were it would not matter because wild is a side mode to make some cards game defining powerful and OMY is nowhere near
In the end OMY is not the first Paladin card which should be nerfed. But paladin should be nerfed
Silver Hand Recruit
I really like this idea.
I wouldn’t, the card is fine
Yea its totally fucking ok to have 60% of games being vs paladin :). You fucking imbecils paladin should have atleast 3 more cards nerfed because the deck doesnt have a single counter :). Fucking understand that you cannot get legend without playing 5x same time as only paladin :).
Hahaa
of course paladin have counters...
Pointing to other problems doesn't actually discuss this one. Yes, there is a problem with librams. There is also a BIG problem with oh my yogg.
A few replies to the above:
1. Making the effect truly random (any spell any level) would actually be a buff to oh my yogg in higher leagues of standard (where knowledge of the limited card pool makes it at least semi predictable).
2. In terms of it being a mage spell, that makes the card pool per cost tiny (and if it's any cost then coin basically turns oh my yogg into a crazy burn to the pally or their minions- likely and in doing so will end all play of oh my yogg), either way, yogg becomes instant garbage in standard and still has the same problems in wild.
3. Saying ppl can play around counterspell fundementally understates it's impact. Again I was secret mage in legend (standard) last season and lots of players messed up their turns trying to play around the possibility of a counterspell (I would generally avoid playing my 2nd counterspell until an emergency or until endgame because triggering the second counter would allow my opponent to stop making poor plays out of fear - - and this is again in LEGEND). That said, counterspell is a fair (really annoying but fair) card. Many spells it counters cost less than it, decent play choices prevent the losses of your top spells, and there is an implicit requirement of a secret heavy deck (otherwise the fact it is a counter is obvious and it's value is defeated - - and this is undesirable in many mage builds).
None of this is true for oh my yogg. All paladins have 3+ diff secrets they want to (or would be happy to) play (especially with sword being able to remove them from deck to prevent later game draws) . Almost nothing (unless you are lucky enough to have the coin) costs less than oh my yogg (so it rarely represents a loss of mana).
4. The idea that SOMETIMES oh my yogg helps the spells caster represents a complete failure to even attempt to see the card clearly. It's not about the times it looses a game for the pally or the times it wins the game for the pally, or anything in between. It's about the fact that it is a 1 mana counterspell without a strict (or even probable) penalty.
Also I have tested coin in wild, twice. The first time I lost all my mana to destroy my own minion, the second time I lost all my mana and healed for 8 health.... Never testing with coin again in wild, it cost me the game both times.
I would not nerf it. Don´t get me wrong, i HATE that card, but you can´t just nerf whatever makes the game slightly more challenging.
Saddly enough, it seems that most people want to win games effortlessly. Of course i´m sure they don´t behave like that at work, school or in life in general.........or do they???.......na
I don't necessarily want it nerfed, but sped up. I've had turns time out because the animation is so slow. Considering you have to wait out the full animation to see the outcome, in order to react, it's a problem