Greetings, I have a tournament coming up this Sunday and i could really use some help on choosing my lineup.
First off,let me tell you about the format.It's conquest. We need to bring 4 decks. The group stage is bo3,deck lists are closed. We can choose which 3 decks (out of the 4 we picked) we want to use against somebody,meaning i can switch decks between opponents. Top two of each group go on to top 16 and from that point deck lists are open and its bo5. The final is b07. Through all stages(except the final), we can ban 1 deck from our opponent.
Now, I have no experience playing tournaments. I know how to play all the top tier decks and i'm a regular top 1000 legend player but i lack strategy on tournaments. So far, i have chosen to play 2 decks and firmly solid on playing them. It's death-rattle hunter and Shudderwock shaman. Now for the other two decks i have a lot of options but i'm not sure which would suit my lineup the best, i'm not even sure what would be my 3 decks for the group stage.
My question to you is, what two decks would you recommend? What three decks would you choose for the group stage? Which deck should i prioritize to ban? Now, when recommending decks you can suggest any kind of deck,i don't have issues with building any deck,i have the cards and the skill to play them. I only need to gain insight in how i should approach banning and choosing my decks during a tournament,so even if you have been to one tournament,10 tournaments or none, i would really appreciate all the help i can get!
Something is unclear about the format. You have 4 decks total. "We can choose which 3 decks we want to use against somebody" but they have a ban as well?
So when all is said and done (after ban) am I correct in reading that you will only have 2 decks with which to play?
This question is very relevant to the answer of the question, so just being clear.
Also, can you win multiple games with one deck, or will it be a situation like the HCT where you win with a deck and you can't play it again until a new opponent?
Sorry, I'm just unclear from the description.
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You need to pick 4 decks when entering the tournament, you can use only those decks throughout the tournament. In group stage, against every opponent you choose 3 decks ,out your 4 brought, which you want to use. Then you and your opponent ban one of each others 3 decks and you need to win 2 out of the 3 games. Its conquest format,so once you win with one deck,you can't use it again. After the group stage,you use all 4 decks but one will be banned. In the final there is no bans.
My top contenders for the last two spots to take are Even Warlock, Odd Paladin, Togwaggle Druid ,even maybe Big Spell Mage,Odd Quest Warrior or Token Druid. From the mentioned, i believe Even Warlock would be a good pick for the 3rd spot to use in group stage,and as for the 4th deck to go with, the more i think about it,the more i bang my head since there is always possibility of being weak to not 1,but 2 of my opponents decks.
Ok, cool. I can never remember if Conquest is "beat all opponent decks" or "win with all your decks" (not quite the same thing).
I'm going to say "Deathrattle Hunter" a million times in the paragraphs below. Anytime you see those words, you can sub that out for the deck you think will be most popular.
So, I have to go home and bask in the warmth of HSReplay's premium data, but I can give you an idea what I'll be looking for.
Because I'm not a member of a pro team, I will have to kind of rely on analytics to take a guess at the most popular decks. Let's say Deathrattle Hunter (DRH) is most popular right now. You're either going to try to make a lineup with the best winrate against DRH OR you're going to resolve to ban hunter in all cases. Since it's a closed decklist tourney, you won't know for sure if your opponent is playing Deathrattle or Secret/Spell Hunter, so if we choose to tech against DRH, we will try very hard not to run decks that lose horribly to other Hunter decks. If we choose to ban Hunter, then we won't care either way.
It's very VERY important that if you choose the ban hunter route, you NEVER deviate from it. Don't for any reason find yourself talked out of banning Hunter (unless thru some nefarious means you know for sure your opponent is playing another sort of Hunter and you feel like you have a favorable matchup against his particular deck).
Oh, by the way, we're not going to flip a coin to decide which strategy to pursue. We can tell ole HSReplay to exclude a class and give win rates based on that exclusion (how does a deck do against the entire meta except Hunter). Then we'll look at the highest win rates against ONLY Deathrattle Hunter and see what is what. If, for example, the highest win rates against DRH are only like 58% or not much better than coin flip, then we ban it. If there are at least 3 decks that are getting 70% against it, we probably resolve to target it.
That's your start. The rest is just details. Like, let's say we've chosen to ban DRH and we're now looking at the rest of the field. We're considering Odd Warrior vs Big Spell Mage (just as an example). Both suck against DRH, but we don't care because Hunter is getting banned. Perhaps you believe that druid is going to be very popular as well. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I imagine Odd Warrior is better against Maly Druid than BSM. You sort of have to make a few educated guesses based on play rates as to what you'll see in the tournament. After that, you just have to crunch the numbers.
Because it's a closed decklist tourney, you will have to do more guesswork than usual. However, you can use the closed decklist as an excuse to get some tech cards in your decks. For example, if you were playing Odd Warrior and your opponent saw your decklist, you might not be inclined to play Azalina. However, if he doesn't know to play around it, that might be a better choice. Some would argue that that sort of minutia is a waste of time, but every little advantage helps.
I'll take a look tonight and see if a lineup jumps out at me.
In the meantime, get used to the idea that Aggro lists are flat out more consistent. If you want to maximize chances, you're probably going to end up bringing one or more of the face-melting variety of deck. Maybe not though, the numbers don't lie.
EDIT: Oh, one last thing. If you come to the conclusion that DRH (or any other deck) is worth banning, then you should probably play it yourself. If you don't feel excited about playing it, it's probably not worth being your ban. And yes, I realize there are circumstances where you can find a lineup that is great against the meta minus one deck that doesn't include that deck, but it's the exception, not the rule.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
So if my 3 decks for the group stage are death rattle hunter, Shudderwock Shaman and Even Warlock, the question is,what would my bans be?
Hunter deck has a lot of anti aggro tools and is weakest to odd rogue and odd paladin,other than that can beat anything. Shudderwock can struggle against druid and aggro,again. As for warlock, he can beat druid with demonic project and aggro,except Odd Rogue so maybe when it comes to banning Rogue is the mayor contender to be the banned class?
I mean, if those are just the 3 decks you are most comfortable with, I can give you the best ban once I have a few minutes with the numbers.
Generally though, a lot of the best tournament players start with the ban and end with the decks. Not the other way around. We can work with it though, as I say, just let me get home.
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Oh my bad man, I'm sitting here writing a book and somehow missed the part where you said you were set on Wock and DRH.
I'll look at the numbers.
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I'm not really scared of any variant of hunter, since i have a lot of experience in the mirror and i do have the tools in my Shudderwock to beat him as well since i have two 1 mana silence and other stall tools to get my shudderwock up and running. What i want to say,i'm really comfortable with playing against any deck with these two decks. The problem are the last two decks. No matter what i choose, there is a deck i don't believe i can win against. Lets say i pick Even lock. For me ,the deck struggles against Odd rogue, Malygos Druid,Odd Warrior or control mage. If my opponent has two of the mentioned decks,which one would i ban? Since my opponent is unlikely to ban my warlock, i have to play against one of those decks with the warlock. I guess my pick would be Odd rogue since its still possible to beat Maly and control,sometimes.
Well, any numbers will do, really appreciate it. I like the idea of choosing to ban a single class every time but i'm still not sure what class that would be.
Yeah, so since you have two decks picked, I'll look at the win rates for those two and see what they're great and terrible against and we'll see if we can find a good 3rd and 4th and ban.
There's always going to be a deck you're screwed against. We just need to try to make that the same deck for all or most of your matchups, and then you know your ban.
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Off the top of my head, DRH and Shudderwock are quite good against most control matchups, and it sounds like you have Wock teched well against the DRH match. So, usually the goal would be to find a third and forth deck (remember, the 4th is important too since you can't control opponent's bans) that are good against the control lineup as well. You don't want to be the jack of all trades. You sort of want to sell out for either anti-aggro or anti-control.
Shudderwock is kind of a great deck to play in the mindset of selling out against control. You're setting yourself up to just roll the entire field if it's a control-heavy lineup. So let's embrace that.
I'm trying to think as I type and it's not working, so let's just type.
Paladin??? I don't like it. Odd Paladin can highroll anyone, but it feels like it gets rolled by warlock and we don't want weak control matches.
Priest??? Maybe. You're going to lose against other Wocks, but I wouldn't be worried about that. Plus, priest has Scream, which is always nice against DRH.
Mage??? I don't like the druid and warrior match.
Lock??? Even Lock is just flat out strong. It is vulnerable to hard aggro, but we're dealing with a Shudderwock lineup . . . You're already vulnerable to the aggro lineup.
Druid??? If you're comfortable with Togwaggle Druid, that might be the way to go against control.
Rogue??? Quest Rogue would be a ballsy 4th, but that's selling out the aggro matchup so hard I'm thinking we may have gone a bit overboard.
Warrior??? I'd have to look at the numbers before I said anything on warrior.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Off the top of my head, DRH and Shudderwock are quite good against most control matchups, and it sounds like you have Wock teched well against the DRH match. So, usually the goal would be to find a third and forth deck (remember, the 4th is important too since you can't control opponent's bans) that are good against the control lineup as well. You don't want to be the jack of all trades. You sort of want to sell out for either anti-aggro or anti-control.
Shudderwock is kind of a great deck to play in the mindset of selling out against control. You're setting yourself up to just roll the entire field if it's a control-heavy lineup. So let's embrace that.
I'm trying to think as I type and it's not working, so let's just type.
Paladin??? I don't like it. Odd Paladin can highroll anyone, but it feels like it gets rolled by warlock and we don't want weak control matches.
Priest??? Maybe. You're going to lose against other Wocks, but I wouldn't be worried about that. Plus, priest has Scream, which is always nice against DRH.
Mage??? I don't like the druid and warrior match.
Lock??? Even Lock is just flat out strong. It is vulnerable to hard aggro, but we're dealing with a Shudderwock lineup . . . You're already vulnerable to the aggro lineup.
Druid??? If you're comfortable with Togwaggle Druid, that might be the way to go against control.
Rogue??? Quest Rogue would be a ballsy 4th, but that's selling out the aggro matchup so hard I'm thinking we may have gone a bit overboard.
Warrior??? I'd have to look at the numbers before I said anything on warrior.
That's just a spitball.
I agree. Maybe Mecha'Thun Priest is a good choice?
Yeah, so since you have two decks picked, I'll look at the win rates for those two and see what they're great and terrible against and we'll see if we can find a good 3rd and 4th and ban.
There's always going to be a deck you're screwed against. We just need to try to make that the same deck for all or most of your matchups, and then you know your ban.
The thing is during the group stage its very important which decks i choose and ban since its only bo3 and there is a lesser margin for error when picking and banning. If i just pass the group id be super happy and more comfortable once i know what my opponents decks are.
Mecha'thun Priest would be a "made of balls" choice.
That doesn't necessarily mean wrong choice.
I think I can come up with better though. We obviously are selling out to beat control, but that doesn't mean we want to play a deck with sub 30% against odd rogue or something. I don't know how bad Mecha'Priest gets beaten up.
If you had an open list tourney, I'd say go DRH, Wock, Toggwaggle, Quest Rogue. You'd basically ban the most aggro-ey opponent deck and try hard to put the rest of their aggro against Togwaggle Druid and Wock. You'd have to highroll a bit on the board clears and spreading plagues, but it could be done. No one with a control lineup would stand a chance in hell.
Without the open list, there's a lot of guesswork going into bans. I mean, Paladin would be a safe bet, but you'd need backups for when the opponent doesn't have paladin.
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Even Quest Rogue i'd say is a ballsy choice. But i like this thinking of making a complete anti control line up, i just don't know how smart that is since its bo3 at start.
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Greetings,
I have a tournament coming up this Sunday and i could really use some help on choosing my lineup.
First off,let me tell you about the format.It's conquest. We need to bring 4 decks. The group stage is bo3,deck lists are closed. We can choose which 3 decks (out of the 4 we picked) we want to use against somebody,meaning i can switch decks between opponents. Top two of each group go on to top 16 and from that point deck lists are open and its bo5. The final is b07. Through all stages(except the final), we can ban 1 deck from our opponent.
Now, I have no experience playing tournaments. I know how to play all the top tier decks and i'm a regular top 1000 legend player but i lack strategy on tournaments. So far, i have chosen to play 2 decks and firmly solid on playing them. It's death-rattle hunter and Shudderwock shaman. Now for the other two decks i have a lot of options but i'm not sure which would suit my lineup the best, i'm not even sure what would be my 3 decks for the group stage.
My question to you is, what two decks would you recommend? What three decks would you choose for the group stage? Which deck should i prioritize to ban? Now, when recommending decks you can suggest any kind of deck,i don't have issues with building any deck,i have the cards and the skill to play them. I only need to gain insight in how i should approach banning and choosing my decks during a tournament,so even if you have been to one tournament,10 tournaments or none, i would really appreciate all the help i can get!
Something is unclear about the format. You have 4 decks total. "We can choose which 3 decks we want to use against somebody" but they have a ban as well?
So when all is said and done (after ban) am I correct in reading that you will only have 2 decks with which to play?
This question is very relevant to the answer of the question, so just being clear.
Also, can you win multiple games with one deck, or will it be a situation like the HCT where you win with a deck and you can't play it again until a new opponent?
Sorry, I'm just unclear from the description.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
You need to pick 4 decks when entering the tournament, you can use only those decks throughout the tournament. In group stage, against every opponent you choose 3 decks ,out your 4 brought, which you want to use. Then you and your opponent ban one of each others 3 decks and you need to win 2 out of the 3 games. Its conquest format,so once you win with one deck,you can't use it again. After the group stage,you use all 4 decks but one will be banned. In the final there is no bans.
If anything else is unclear to you,feel free to ask, i have no problem answering if you are willing to help me :)
My top contenders for the last two spots to take are Even Warlock, Odd Paladin, Togwaggle Druid ,even maybe Big Spell Mage,Odd Quest Warrior or Token Druid. From the mentioned, i believe Even Warlock would be a good pick for the 3rd spot to use in group stage,and as for the 4th deck to go with, the more i think about it,the more i bang my head since there is always possibility of being weak to not 1,but 2 of my opponents decks.
I second the notion for Even Warlock, it is a very strong contender. As for the 4th who knows.
Ok, cool. I can never remember if Conquest is "beat all opponent decks" or "win with all your decks" (not quite the same thing).
I'm going to say "Deathrattle Hunter" a million times in the paragraphs below. Anytime you see those words, you can sub that out for the deck you think will be most popular.
So, I have to go home and bask in the warmth of HSReplay's premium data, but I can give you an idea what I'll be looking for.
Because I'm not a member of a pro team, I will have to kind of rely on analytics to take a guess at the most popular decks. Let's say Deathrattle Hunter (DRH) is most popular right now. You're either going to try to make a lineup with the best winrate against DRH OR you're going to resolve to ban hunter in all cases. Since it's a closed decklist tourney, you won't know for sure if your opponent is playing Deathrattle or Secret/Spell Hunter, so if we choose to tech against DRH, we will try very hard not to run decks that lose horribly to other Hunter decks. If we choose to ban Hunter, then we won't care either way.
It's very VERY important that if you choose the ban hunter route, you NEVER deviate from it. Don't for any reason find yourself talked out of banning Hunter (unless thru some nefarious means you know for sure your opponent is playing another sort of Hunter and you feel like you have a favorable matchup against his particular deck).
Oh, by the way, we're not going to flip a coin to decide which strategy to pursue. We can tell ole HSReplay to exclude a class and give win rates based on that exclusion (how does a deck do against the entire meta except Hunter). Then we'll look at the highest win rates against ONLY Deathrattle Hunter and see what is what. If, for example, the highest win rates against DRH are only like 58% or not much better than coin flip, then we ban it. If there are at least 3 decks that are getting 70% against it, we probably resolve to target it.
That's your start. The rest is just details. Like, let's say we've chosen to ban DRH and we're now looking at the rest of the field. We're considering Odd Warrior vs Big Spell Mage (just as an example). Both suck against DRH, but we don't care because Hunter is getting banned. Perhaps you believe that druid is going to be very popular as well. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I imagine Odd Warrior is better against Maly Druid than BSM. You sort of have to make a few educated guesses based on play rates as to what you'll see in the tournament. After that, you just have to crunch the numbers.
Because it's a closed decklist tourney, you will have to do more guesswork than usual. However, you can use the closed decklist as an excuse to get some tech cards in your decks. For example, if you were playing Odd Warrior and your opponent saw your decklist, you might not be inclined to play Azalina. However, if he doesn't know to play around it, that might be a better choice. Some would argue that that sort of minutia is a waste of time, but every little advantage helps.
I'll take a look tonight and see if a lineup jumps out at me.
In the meantime, get used to the idea that Aggro lists are flat out more consistent. If you want to maximize chances, you're probably going to end up bringing one or more of the face-melting variety of deck. Maybe not though, the numbers don't lie.
EDIT: Oh, one last thing. If you come to the conclusion that DRH (or any other deck) is worth banning, then you should probably play it yourself. If you don't feel excited about playing it, it's probably not worth being your ban. And yes, I realize there are circumstances where you can find a lineup that is great against the meta minus one deck that doesn't include that deck, but it's the exception, not the rule.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
So if my 3 decks for the group stage are death rattle hunter, Shudderwock Shaman and Even Warlock, the question is,what would my bans be?
Hunter deck has a lot of anti aggro tools and is weakest to odd rogue and odd paladin,other than that can beat anything. Shudderwock can struggle against druid and aggro,again. As for warlock, he can beat druid with demonic project and aggro,except Odd Rogue so maybe when it comes to banning Rogue is the mayor contender to be the banned class?
I mean, if those are just the 3 decks you are most comfortable with, I can give you the best ban once I have a few minutes with the numbers.
Generally though, a lot of the best tournament players start with the ban and end with the decks. Not the other way around. We can work with it though, as I say, just let me get home.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I think you should do the 2 you want, evenlock (as mentioned above), and odd rogue .it's a solid choice imo. You look to have a strong line up
Oh my bad man, I'm sitting here writing a book and somehow missed the part where you said you were set on Wock and DRH.
I'll look at the numbers.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I'm not really scared of any variant of hunter, since i have a lot of experience in the mirror and i do have the tools in my Shudderwock to beat him as well since i have two 1 mana silence and other stall tools to get my shudderwock up and running. What i want to say,i'm really comfortable with playing against any deck with these two decks. The problem are the last two decks. No matter what i choose, there is a deck i don't believe i can win against. Lets say i pick Even lock. For me ,the deck struggles against Odd rogue, Malygos Druid,Odd Warrior or control mage. If my opponent has two of the mentioned decks,which one would i ban? Since my opponent is unlikely to ban my warlock, i have to play against one of those decks with the warlock. I guess my pick would be Odd rogue since its still possible to beat Maly and control,sometimes.
Well, any numbers will do, really appreciate it. I like the idea of choosing to ban a single class every time but i'm still not sure what class that would be.
Are you competing in the Canada challenge?
Yeah, so since you have two decks picked, I'll look at the win rates for those two and see what they're great and terrible against and we'll see if we can find a good 3rd and 4th and ban.
There's always going to be a deck you're screwed against. We just need to try to make that the same deck for all or most of your matchups, and then you know your ban.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
No, its a minor tournament
Off the top of my head, DRH and Shudderwock are quite good against most control matchups, and it sounds like you have Wock teched well against the DRH match. So, usually the goal would be to find a third and forth deck (remember, the 4th is important too since you can't control opponent's bans) that are good against the control lineup as well. You don't want to be the jack of all trades. You sort of want to sell out for either anti-aggro or anti-control.
Shudderwock is kind of a great deck to play in the mindset of selling out against control. You're setting yourself up to just roll the entire field if it's a control-heavy lineup. So let's embrace that.
I'm trying to think as I type and it's not working, so let's just type.
Paladin??? I don't like it. Odd Paladin can highroll anyone, but it feels like it gets rolled by warlock and we don't want weak control matches.
Priest??? Maybe. You're going to lose against other Wocks, but I wouldn't be worried about that. Plus, priest has Scream, which is always nice against DRH.
Mage??? I don't like the druid and warrior match.
Lock??? Even Lock is just flat out strong. It is vulnerable to hard aggro, but we're dealing with a Shudderwock lineup . . . You're already vulnerable to the aggro lineup.
Druid??? If you're comfortable with Togwaggle Druid, that might be the way to go against control.
Rogue??? Quest Rogue would be a ballsy 4th, but that's selling out the aggro matchup so hard I'm thinking we may have gone a bit overboard.
Warrior??? I'd have to look at the numbers before I said anything on warrior.
That's just a spitball.
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Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I agree. Maybe Mecha'Thun Priest is a good choice?
The thing is during the group stage its very important which decks i choose and ban since its only bo3 and there is a lesser margin for error when picking and banning. If i just pass the group id be super happy and more comfortable once i know what my opponents decks are.
Mecha'thun Priest would be a "made of balls" choice.
That doesn't necessarily mean wrong choice.
I think I can come up with better though. We obviously are selling out to beat control, but that doesn't mean we want to play a deck with sub 30% against odd rogue or something. I don't know how bad Mecha'Priest gets beaten up.
If you had an open list tourney, I'd say go DRH, Wock, Toggwaggle, Quest Rogue. You'd basically ban the most aggro-ey opponent deck and try hard to put the rest of their aggro against Togwaggle Druid and Wock. You'd have to highroll a bit on the board clears and spreading plagues, but it could be done. No one with a control lineup would stand a chance in hell.
Without the open list, there's a lot of guesswork going into bans. I mean, Paladin would be a safe bet, but you'd need backups for when the opponent doesn't have paladin.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Even Quest Rogue i'd say is a ballsy choice. But i like this thinking of making a complete anti control line up, i just don't know how smart that is since its bo3 at start.