Max McCall Talks About Combo Decks and Why They Can Be Problematic
Our friendly neighborhood Hearthstone developer Max McCall jumped on the forums again yesterday, sharing his thoughts about combo decks in the game. In short, they feel that while a combo deck might be a lot of fun for the person playing that deck, it isn't for the opponent, especially if those type of decks are very common on the ladder. Decks with the goal of minimizing interaction with your opponent and/or killing them instantly are not the type of decks they want to be on top of the meta, so they're careful with printing cards that make these type of decks too strong.
A lot of players disagree with him and think combo decks are some of the most fun and skill-intensive decks in the game. What do you think?
You can read his full thoughts below:
Quote from Max McCallHearthstone is fun because each game is a little different from the last. Combo decks make for very different types of games, where players can’t rely on their normal decision-making heuristics and have to reconsider their strategic approach to the game. So, in general, combo decks are good for Hearthstone because they add some texture to the ladder experience. But like any other deck, combo decks that become too popular cause issues.
When we make cards like Emperor Thaurissan and Counterfeit Coin, we’re aware that they tend to enable combo decks. We don’t usually set out to make a particular combo deck be a particular power level; we are always worried about missing and making a deck more powerful than we’d like – and that goes for any type of deck, not just combo decks - but that doesn’t mean that we don’t want any combo decks at all. We do want combo decks. We just want them at the same level that we want other decks.
Specific combo decks can be problems for the same reason that any other deck can be a problem: when a deck in Hearthstone gets too popular, you play against it so frequently that it stops being fun. Further, usually popular decks are powerful, so you are also likely to be losing more games than you win while also playing against the popular deck more often than you would like.
Powerful combo decks tend to exacerbate this problem because most combo decks aren’t trying to interact with their opponents on any axis that involves minions. It is cool when, once in a while, you play a game against a deck that is all card drawing and removal and you have to consider how you want to ration your threats instead of finding little victories in profitable trades. It is less cool when you start playing a substantial fraction of your games against “Frost Nova, Doomsayer, go” before getting Ice Lanced out of the game. Figuring out a good trade is more fun than making educated guesses about how your opponent will kill your minions over the next few turns.
I am not saying that some or all combo decks are inherently bad for Hearthstone. I am saying that when a deck is popular, it becomes less fun to play against. Popular combo decks have the further problem that they try to ignore opposing minions as much as possible, which is frustrating for most non-combo players.
This is true whether or not a deck is easy or hard to play, although the decks that are hard to play tend to be less popular because less skilled players don’t play them as often.
Also, saying that a combo deck is interactive because it has a bunch of removal is true only in the loosest sense of the word. Combo decks use their removal to try to reduce their interaction with their opponents as much as possible.
Cards are interactive when they generate strategic options for both players. Minions are interactive because their controller has options on how to leverage their threat and their opponent has options on how to remove it. Removal itself reduces the strategic options for both players: it reduces the amount of stuff in play that can be interacted with.
This isn’t to say that all removal is problematic – removal spells are very important for Hearthstone – but I see the idea of ‘this deck is interactive because it is really good at killing minions’ frequently and I wanted to challenge that assertion.
Most combo decks, in addition to trying to avoid interacting with minions, also try to avoid letting their opponent interact with them. The problem with OTKs isn’t so much ‘I was at 30, then I lost’ as much as it is ‘I was at 30, then I lost, and there wasn’t anything I could do about it.’ You can play a taunt minion against a Leeroy combo, but again, most combo decks are very good at killing minions, so the idea that a taunt minion will save you against a Miracle Rogue that’s drawn their whole deck is a stretch.
So, most combo decks try to avoid interacting with their opponents as much as possible, and then win in a way that is extremely difficult for their opponent to interact with in a meaningful way. It’s good when those types of decks pop up on ladder occasionally. But when those types of strategies are too popular and powerful, they are frustrating, and we nerf them.
When they are not popular, we tend to let them be. Usually they are less popular because they are less powerful; often they are less powerful because they have to interact with their opponent. For example, the Aviana-C’Thun combo has to play a lot of C’Thun minions, which facilitates interaction for both players. Combo decks that aren’t super popular or super powerful are great to have around; as I noted earlier, they do a lot to add variety to the ladder.
they aren't tho...they specifcially left Gadgetzan auctioneer in the game. They just took out conceal so there's counterplay, but guess what, there are other ways to stealth a minion. Might wanna give our old friend Xaril a try
Yeah, they took out conceal because it "reduces interactivity". But, what I meant was that IMO stealth is getting more attention. If you compare stealth vs combo mechanics, stealth got more cards in Gadgetzan:
Combo: 2 (Gadgetzan Ferryman being one of them XD)
Stealth: 5
I hope Blizzard doesn't continue in this direction as combo is one of my favourite mechanics
Dude WTF are you smoking? They are talking about combo decks not the combo keyword/mechanic!
W T F !!!
They have specifically said they will never allow for deck or hand manipulation of you opponent. Mill is the only exception, but that will be wild only very soon. *I searched but could not find the actual source.*
But doesn't Dirty Rat violate that statement? At least as far as "manipulation" is concerned.
Maybe they just meant outright card destruction with zero benefit for the opponent.
Agreed - win your opponent's win condition is assembling a set of cards in hand, things that manipulate your opponent's hand will be combo breakers. Dirty Rat is a current example mentioned, but cards like Loatheb back in the day was a huge combo-breaker for things like Wombo-Combo Druid. So if they want less combos, they will need to print cards that mess with your opponent's mana cost, hand size, discard, or pull cards out early. All of these would be combo breakers for the skillful player while still allowing the combo player to work towards their win-condition.
Dirty Rat is different than discarding a card from the opponent's hand. Discarding a card will almost always be negative for the opponent, the only possible benefit being removing a dead card from their hand. Dirty Rat on the other hand gives the opponent some tempo to counter the over-statted taunt minion. If you think of it, Dirty Rat is just half of Ancestor's Call, giving the ability some precedence. The fact that Dirty Rat can counter combos is just a side effect of minions being the target of combos.
They have gone back on their word multiple times on that. They said it, and then they madeLoatheb. They said it again, and then they made Dirty Rat.
Just ignore anything they say, you'll be better off.
If they didn't like combo why did they have combo as Rogue's main skill?
cause they dont like rogue?
Blizzard doesn't like combo because it is non-interactive. In the mean time we are actually all salty because of turn 5 lethals, which apperently is very interactive.
it is tho. Their Arcanite reaper is interacting heavily with your face.
On a serious note tho, they have a point, aggro decks you can at least fight with. You might not always win, but you can always try. In combo decks there's nothing to fight over. You just try and kill them before they got all their pieces with very little interaction on either side
It's too bad Dirty Rat doesn't exist so we can't interact with Leeroy Jenkins combo. or Aviana-kun combo.
It's too bad we don't have a Polymorph or Entomb effect to counter Anyfin Can Happen combo.
It's too bad we don't Eater of Secrets to kill Freeze mage, or have any healing in the game to keep us above 20 or have ANY kill card or minion to kill their Doomsayer.
Meanwhile for aggro we have few taunt minions, may of which are awful and you have to draw them.
People responding Smorc is worse then Combo... lol...
Well, uh... actually they are right, but not by too much! The difference is Blizzard nerfs combo and doesn't nerf aggro. If it was the other way around, Combo would be what everyone was complaining about. In both cases the opponent has to sit back and know there is almost no circumstance in which they can win that involves skillfull playing. Against aggro you have to hope they draw poorly and you draw well. Against Combo... you have to hope they draw poorly and you draw well.
To a degree this is what any card game is about, but without interaction on your opponents turn, it is imperative OTK (especially out-of-hand) combos never be too strong. Blizzard seems to understand this and I see it as the reason they always nerf combo first. I know I will get a lot of hate for this from snowflakes, but don't you dare think combo takes any extra skill beyond understanding interactions. Aggro barfs their hand out, Combo barfs their deck out, only difference.
Don't think this means I don't want combo around, I just want non-BS combos that you can in some way stop besides Smorcing your opponent before they do it. Aggro can pretty much go die in a fire though, because at least combos are fun to do when they are fair. SO, overall, I think Blizzard actually understands how combos are very easily escalated with Hearthstones small decks and small, capped health pools.
Yeah, watching how you get killed in a single turn after having the board the entire games feels worse than the constant up and downs you get while facing off against aggro IMO.
Combo decks are very much needed to counter control and midrange. They also reward the better skilled players who want to do something other then trade or go face all the time.
Freeze mage is too 'easy' though. Frost nova doomsayer is insane and it couples thios effect with another justifiable annoying threat - face-able damage spells.
Spells that can go minion or face are importants for finishers, but with freeze mage there are clearly too many face spells available to mage - especially in conjunction with alextrazza.
Glad to see freeze mage getting a minor nerf. Should be punishing enough without completely killing the deck.
Freeze mage actually is one of the most difficult and rewarding type of deck to play. I'm just happy that auction was left alone. I hated having to play the questing adventure build of Miracle rouge just t compete in the mirror match. I hope that rogue gets some more delaying spells or secrets. Some thing like stealth your hero for one turn.