Hearthpwn

If you ever want to play Wild, then holding on to your collection is best.

Other things to consider:

1) Wild cards can be used in some tavern brawls (and sometimes the arena like brawliseum)

2) Wild cards can be used in some of the single adventure content (who knows what the new stuff will look like, but frozen throne adventure and before it could use any cards for the bosses)

3) Any old adventures heroic modes if you have never beaten, can be rerun with the wild cards

It is a cosmetic item only... it provides ZERO advantage over another player.  There was only two times ever blizzard gave out an item that you could play in the game that no one could get for free.  Gelbin Meqatorgue (for the first purchase during beta), and that ETC card thing that people got for the first blizzcon hearthstone was at.  Those cards both sucked and you could craft the regular versions of them.  However, EVERY SINGLE HERO SKIN is just a cosmetic item.  If you want it, sure pay for it, if you don't ... don't.  If you can't afford it.... well then you can't afford it.   You have the "HERO" of the priest, you just don't have the hero skin.  This is a crazy complaint from people who need to realize that this is also a FOR PROFIT company.  

Are they reprinting possessed villager?  If they are doing reprints (which in the past they mentioned they might), how would this work in wild?  Would they only allow 2 copies of the same card in wild but you could chose whatever two versions you wanted? Would you be able to use your wild version of possessed villager instead of the new standard one?  ... I am curious, really hoping they don't reprint cards as I want cool new things and never thought possessed villager was a fun card.

Quote from Nargacuga15 >>

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

Yes, I'm incredibly angry.  These changes to the classic set don't rotate next year, they continue to impact the game in ways that were unwarranted to start with.  Every time the balance team makes a decision based on popular consensus, it has been the wrong decision and/or for the wrong reason.

And no, I didn't read the rest of the thread.  The OP asked a question and I gave an answer.  Not that a bunch of people saying the same general thing would have changed my post. 

It is self-evident that if Flametongue Totem was somehow worth a nerf, than certainly Zilliax needs one as well.  Fortunately, Flametongue Totem was NOT worth a nerf, and neither is Zilliax.

 Yeah, but the world wasn't calling for a Flametongue nerf... It may have had a thread or two, but it wasn't at the forefront of conversations. Flametongue got its nerf because when the next expansion was tested they realized Flametongue carried aggro in a dangerous way. That is the MAIN reason nerfs happen- the card is toxic to the future meta being tested. I don't feel Zilliax and Flametongue are in the same bucket. One is proven strong and the other is creeping. All I am saying is come back at rotation and tell me I'm wrong, and sure feel free to mock me. Or, maybe the card really does go in basically every deck at rotation due to the power loss. I don't know and you don't know what will happen, but I'm prepared to see the card a lot more than it already appears. Just bringing to light that feeling and discussing the card. I identified my title is wrong. It should probably read "Let's Discuss the Future of Zilliax".

 Wrong but close. Flametongue and other nerfs amd rotations happen because it impacts game design.  If they cannot make xyz cards that they want consistently because they have to design around it then they nerf.  Could be shaman might get a swarmy taunt or divine shield effect that flametongue is broken with.  I struggle to see much design constraint with zilliax besides magnetic mechs (magnetic is limited to boomsday which is not broken) and in wild zilliax is not broken.  It is a tech stabilizing card where you want a small heal, a taunt, or a small clear va aggro or some other deck.. its a stall like antique healbot, or sludge belcher was.  He is a great tech card that is only in decks that need those effects in the current meta... I see few worlds where he is broken, he cant really cause many nuts combos... I also struggle to see what card printed would break him besides an op low cost magnetic mech (which magnetic is over, keywords tend to stay in their own sets). My vote.. no nerf, low on the watchlist.    I get the ops thougt though  dr boom was in every deck as a 7 drop.  However dr boom is proactive vs defensive and that is key.  Dr boom went wide, went tall and went sticky / dangerous to remove, also countered sylvannas and other tech cards of the time.  Zilliax just defends, heals a small amount, or removes a small thing.  it doesnt heal alot most of the time, is easy to remove and counters little but aggro

In wild naxx is the most fun and has the most interesting cards for wild... its also a longer playthrough than karazhan

Quote from Fog_za >>

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In my opinion the biggest issue is that the current meta has tow major build around cards:gen and baku.  Either these cards should be in less decks via some changes or they should make those cards accesible.  Most casual players dont want to invest in a set from over a year ago for the chance of getting those 2 legends.  Crafting them is fine but casual players want to craft cool fun cards and not ones that feel standard.

 

Either those 2 legends should be nerfed or made more accesible for everyone.  These feel like reno, and reno had an accesible price point in a fun adventure.  Like reno, if you dont have the respective gen or baku you cant even play a budget version of the deck...   

Another issue is that the current combo decks are super unfun to lose against. In the past losing to savage roar force of nature combo you could try and prepare here.  The current combos you cannot prevent unless you are aggro.  Just not fun for most casual players.  None of my friends play anymore based on those 2 pieces of feedback.

 Ummmm, I have to ask you if you really think that's true. What are the decks that use Genn and Baku? Odd warrior, odd paladin, even lock (which I never see anymore), odd rogue (which basically doesn't exist anymore), even paladin and shaman, odd mage. Odd hunter and even rogue are fringe decks. Now tell me that those are the most played decks? Maybe odd paladin, mage and warrior see high levels of play. The meta is shaped by hunter and priest, straight up. They are the most common decks I see, and virtually 40% of all games over the last day are played with those classes, that run no Genn or Baku decks besides odd hunter. Decks that do use Genn and Baku amount to about 30% over all classes that run one of those decks. I have yet to see an even shaman mirror in over 100 games this season. Only three classes use one of those decks as their most popular deck, and Genn is frankly nowhere. So you only need Baku, and you only need Baku if you want to play warrior, mage or paladin.

 Maybe now, and overall it is true you dont need those cards to do well but it IS the perception everyone i know who used to play daily and have quit over the last few months have told me.  Its a perception thing, not everyone is at a high level and at the lower ranks that is the perception and it has caused people to quit. Cthun was not a top tier deck but at high rank 15 to 20 people played it a ton thinking it was.  Genn and baku have over their lifetimes been in the top decks and are perceived to be when they are not.  Remember Dean Ayala asked what would bring back those who left.  This is what i have heard from those who left.. I still play and i dont use and top tier decks i play control for fun, but its not what makes me happy it is what needs to happen to make those who left haply.  Huge difference here.

 Weird. I'm not saying they don't impact the meta, 30% is plenty, but you don't have to play a odd / even deck to win. Secret paladin is effective, priest is effective, hunter is effective etc etc.

 I am not arguing that those other decks are not effective, I never play genn or baku (I played some wild even shaman for a bit 2 months back, but other than that I don't use either).  My point is that this is the "PERCEPTION" from the players who have quit (that i know of at least).  The whole topic here is why people are leaving the game, and Dean Ayala asked about what they can do to help players who quit come back.  My take is that the perception of two cards from the witchwood being powerful is what the issue is.  It's actually more than that, it is that these cards are not just perceived to be powerful (and oftentimes have been the number one decks in the meta since inception), it's that you cannot even "try" to play any even or odd decks without that card.  It is unfortunate for players who are not good at the game (which by the laws of statistics have to be the majority of the players), who feel that they have no chance based on this.  The people I know who have left got extremely upset either losing to some crazy combo that spent 5 minutes one turn killing them at turn 8 without understanding what happened, or they got super frustrated that they faced 7 odd paladins in a row and they don't have a Genn or Baku to even try making those decks.  So those players have all left over the last several months (and a month back or so the top decks were even and odd), and they just felt like it wasn't fun.  My problem is not that the cards are good, or that you can't have fun or do well with other decks... it is instead that these cards feel like they lock out a portion of the game for newer players. 

The main point of my argument here is this.  For most casual players (which is the majority of hearthstone, and these are the players leaving the game the most), is that they are not enjoying the perception of what it takes to do well or have fun.  It follows these points:

1) Genn and Baku are perceived to be in the most powerful decks (or have been at one point or another since they were released in the witchwood).

2) Genn and Baku are build around cards, you cannot build a budget even or odd deck without that card

3) Those cards are from the witchwood set, so they either have to invest in an old set for the odds of getting those cards (most players being casual, the odds are not great to get either of those since they prob only spend between 0 and 80 bucks a set or so).  

4) Crafting these with dust feels bad, because most casual people prefer to craft cards that feel fun.  Genn and Baku do not feel fun when you play them from your hand... you actually usually only play them from hand when your hand is empty or you have little to do as their statline and board presence is not good for the mana.  The fun of the card is up front in the deck style at the start of the game... so the users who craft these instead feel like they "unlocked a style of deckbuilding" instead of crafting a fun card to play.

5) This was handled differently in the past.  Other build around cards like C'thun was free and so everyone could try and build c'thun decks.  Reno Jackson was super accessible in an adventure via at most 2400 gold, and at worst 25 dollars... Also those cards felt more "fun" when you played them.  Justicar Truehart from the grand tournament was also a card that only felt impactful and fun the turn you played it (so crafting it was okay, since it wasn't a card that impacted the entire game play of the deck).

So to recap, the point here is not that the people who play this game a lot know you can do well with other decks.  The point is not that these cards are not overpowered  The point is not that these cards are not craft-able with dust so everyone can play.  The point has nothing to do with anyone who is in any shape related to anyone who probably reads these forums.  This argument applies to the majority of hearthstone who is either bad at the game, plays 30 minutes a day on the toilet or the train, or just casual people who don't read forums or watch streams or videos.  The point is that the perception of what those 2 cards does, and how accessible they are, and how fun they are is something that IS driving players away (it HAS at a minimum driven 8 people I know away from the game... those arguments directly).  The other 3 people I know who played this game were driven away from combo (and my argument on combo was not against it but was that combo decks in the past were less unfun feeling to play against than now... savage roar force of nature druid was only an 18 damage combo... topsy turvy priest is like 128 or something, mechathun combo animation happens so fast amateurs have no clue what just happened, etc)

 

I also would like to say that i don't think the majority of those who left hearthstone care about a tournament mode, or care about half the arguments people make here.  The majority who have left I can guarantee probably only played 30 minutes to an hour a day, and instead just miss the casual fun they could have playing without feeling hopeless.

 Well, I guess people who feel that way were never gonna stick around long anyway. If I was F2P and I didn't want to craft an integral part of a deck I want to play because it's "not fun" and I'd rather craft something that "looks cool when I play it", then I dunno what to say. By that token, we should all get Bloodmage Thalnos for free, which doesn't do anything spectacular but has been an incredibly useful card for a variety of decks over the years. And yes I know it's not an integral card, but most decks require one or two legendaries, you're usually going to have to craft something sooner or later. If you see a Mechathun deck you like, you're gonna need Mechathun. If you see a Hakkar deck you like, you're gonna have to craft Hakkar. 

 The difference is that mechathun and hakkar are fun to play... the others are not.  Also, most people who are leaving you could argue were those who would not stick around anyway.  That is not the point, the point is that hearthstone grew bigger than any ccg ever has, and now its on a slight decline... The point should be that hearthstone should be trying to keep those players.  I myself, I am not great and I don't buy into my own theories for my own gametime, I play the game still though and I craft other cards and I spend about 100 bucks an expansion ... the point of this post is not for someone like me or someone more serious than me.  The point was for the majority of people leaving (casual players).  I have no problem with hero cards or other integral parts of a deck, or combo cards like malygos.  Those are different, it's like genn and baku are creating a feeling where its unlocking a whole new mode of decks... even and odd are sooo different from other decks with the starting change to hero power, and deck restrictions ... that it is like playing in another mode.  Those two cards are locking out the fun for people who now instead of crafting hakkar feel they should craft baku because they saw a ton of paladins beat them... You also need to realize that MOST people who play hearthstone do not WANT to hit legend, they do not care if they do well enough to be called good... they want to have fun and win a game once in a while.

Quote from Fog_za >>

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In my opinion the biggest issue is that the current meta has tow major build around cards:gen and baku.  Either these cards should be in less decks via some changes or they should make those cards accesible.  Most casual players dont want to invest in a set from over a year ago for the chance of getting those 2 legends.  Crafting them is fine but casual players want to craft cool fun cards and not ones that feel standard.

 

Either those 2 legends should be nerfed or made more accesible for everyone.  These feel like reno, and reno had an accesible price point in a fun adventure.  Like reno, if you dont have the respective gen or baku you cant even play a budget version of the deck...   

Another issue is that the current combo decks are super unfun to lose against. In the past losing to savage roar force of nature combo you could try and prepare here.  The current combos you cannot prevent unless you are aggro.  Just not fun for most casual players.  None of my friends play anymore based on those 2 pieces of feedback.

 Ummmm, I have to ask you if you really think that's true. What are the decks that use Genn and Baku? Odd warrior, odd paladin, even lock (which I never see anymore), odd rogue (which basically doesn't exist anymore), even paladin and shaman, odd mage. Odd hunter and even rogue are fringe decks. Now tell me that those are the most played decks? Maybe odd paladin, mage and warrior see high levels of play. The meta is shaped by hunter and priest, straight up. They are the most common decks I see, and virtually 40% of all games over the last day are played with those classes, that run no Genn or Baku decks besides odd hunter. Decks that do use Genn and Baku amount to about 30% over all classes that run one of those decks. I have yet to see an even shaman mirror in over 100 games this season. Only three classes use one of those decks as their most popular deck, and Genn is frankly nowhere. So you only need Baku, and you only need Baku if you want to play warrior, mage or paladin.

 Maybe now, and overall it is true you dont need those cards to do well but it IS the perception everyone i know who used to play daily and have quit over the last few months have told me.  Its a perception thing, not everyone is at a high level and at the lower ranks that is the perception and it has caused people to quit. Cthun was not a top tier deck but at high rank 15 to 20 people played it a ton thinking it was.  Genn and baku have over their lifetimes been in the top decks and are perceived to be when they are not.  Remember Dean Ayala asked what would bring back those who left.  This is what i have heard from those who left.. I still play and i dont use and top tier decks i play control for fun, but its not what makes me happy it is what needs to happen to make those who left haply.  Huge difference here.

 Weird. I'm not saying they don't impact the meta, 30% is plenty, but you don't have to play a odd / even deck to win. Secret paladin is effective, priest is effective, hunter is effective etc etc.

 I am not arguing that those other decks are not effective, I never play genn or baku (I played some wild even shaman for a bit 2 months back, but other than that I don't use either).  My point is that this is the "PERCEPTION" from the players who have quit (that i know of at least).  The whole topic here is why people are leaving the game, and Dean Ayala asked about what they can do to help players who quit come back.  My take is that the perception of two cards from the witchwood being powerful is what the issue is.  It's actually more than that, it is that these cards are not just perceived to be powerful (and oftentimes have been the number one decks in the meta since inception), it's that you cannot even "try" to play any even or odd decks without that card.  It is unfortunate for players who are not good at the game (which by the laws of statistics have to be the majority of the players), who feel that they have no chance based on this.  The people I know who have left got extremely upset either losing to some crazy combo that spent 5 minutes one turn killing them at turn 8 without understanding what happened, or they got super frustrated that they faced 7 odd paladins in a row and they don't have a Genn or Baku to even try making those decks.  So those players have all left over the last several months (and a month back or so the top decks were even and odd), and they just felt like it wasn't fun.  My problem is not that the cards are good, or that you can't have fun or do well with other decks... it is instead that these cards feel like they lock out a portion of the game for newer players. 

The main point of my argument here is this.  For most casual players (which is the majority of hearthstone, and these are the players leaving the game the most), is that they are not enjoying the perception of what it takes to do well or have fun.  It follows these points:

1) Genn and Baku are perceived to be in the most powerful decks (or have been at one point or another since they were released in the witchwood).

2) Genn and Baku are build around cards, you cannot build a budget even or odd deck without that card

3) Those cards are from the witchwood set, so they either have to invest in an old set for the odds of getting those cards (most players being casual, the odds are not great to get either of those since they prob only spend between 0 and 80 bucks a set or so).  

4) Crafting these with dust feels bad, because most casual people prefer to craft cards that feel fun.  Genn and Baku do not feel fun when you play them from your hand... you actually usually only play them from hand when your hand is empty or you have little to do as their statline and board presence is not good for the mana.  The fun of the card is up front in the deck style at the start of the game... so the users who craft these instead feel like they "unlocked a style of deckbuilding" instead of crafting a fun card to play.

5) This was handled differently in the past.  Other build around cards like C'thun was free and so everyone could try and build c'thun decks.  Reno Jackson was super accessible in an adventure via at most 2400 gold, and at worst 25 dollars... Also those cards felt more "fun" when you played them.  Justicar Truehart from the grand tournament was also a card that only felt impactful and fun the turn you played it (so crafting it was okay, since it wasn't a card that impacted the entire game play of the deck).

So to recap, the point here is not that the people who play this game a lot know you can do well with other decks.  The point is not that these cards are not overpowered  The point is not that these cards are not craft-able with dust so everyone can play.  The point has nothing to do with anyone who is in any shape related to anyone who probably reads these forums.  This argument applies to the majority of hearthstone who is either bad at the game, plays 30 minutes a day on the toilet or the train, or just casual people who don't read forums or watch streams or videos.  The point is that the perception of what those 2 cards does, and how accessible they are, and how fun they are is something that IS driving players away (it HAS at a minimum driven 8 people I know away from the game... those arguments directly).  The other 3 people I know who played this game were driven away from combo (and my argument on combo was not against it but was that combo decks in the past were less unfun feeling to play against than now... savage roar force of nature druid was only an 18 damage combo... topsy turvy priest is like 128 or something, mechathun combo animation happens so fast amateurs have no clue what just happened, etc)

I also would like to say that i don't think the majority of those who left hearthstone care about a tournament mode, or care about half the arguments people make here.  The majority who have left I can guarantee probably only played 30 minutes to an hour a day, and instead just miss the casual fun they could have playing without feeling hopeless.

Quote from Fog_za >>

Quote from sturobhaas >>

In my opinion the biggest issue is that the current meta has tow major build around cards:gen and baku.  Either these cards should be in less decks via some changes or they should make those cards accesible.  Most casual players dont want to invest in a set from over a year ago for the chance of getting those 2 legends.  Crafting them is fine but casual players want to craft cool fun cards and not ones that feel standard.

 

Either those 2 legends should be nerfed or made more accesible for everyone.  These feel like reno, and reno had an accesible price point in a fun adventure.  Like reno, if you dont have the respective gen or baku you cant even play a budget version of the deck...   

Another issue is that the current combo decks are super unfun to lose against. In the past losing to savage roar force of nature combo you could try and prepare here.  The current combos you cannot prevent unless you are aggro.  Just not fun for most casual players.  None of my friends play anymore based on those 2 pieces of feedback.

 Ummmm, I have to ask you if you really think that's true. What are the decks that use Genn and Baku? Odd warrior, odd paladin, even lock (which I never see anymore), odd rogue (which basically doesn't exist anymore), even paladin and shaman, odd mage. Odd hunter and even rogue are fringe decks. Now tell me that those are the most played decks? Maybe odd paladin, mage and warrior see high levels of play. The meta is shaped by hunter and priest, straight up. They are the most common decks I see, and virtually 40% of all games over the last day are played with those classes, that run no Genn or Baku decks besides odd hunter. Decks that do use Genn and Baku amount to about 30% over all classes that run one of those decks. I have yet to see an even shaman mirror in over 100 games this season. Only three classes use one of those decks as their most popular deck, and Genn is frankly nowhere. So you only need Baku, and you only need Baku if you want to play warrior, mage or paladin.

 Maybe now, and overall it is true you dont need those cards to do well but it IS the perception everyone i know who used to play daily and have quit over the last few months have told me.  Its a perception thing, not everyone is at a high level and at the lower ranks that is the perception and it has caused people to quit. Cthun was not a top tier deck but at high rank 15 to 20 people played it a ton thinking it was.  Genn and baku have over their lifetimes been in the top decks and are perceived to be when they are not.  Remember Dean Ayala asked what would bring back those who left.  This is what i have heard from those who left.. I still play and i dont use and top tier decks i play control for fun, but its not what makes me happy it is what needs to happen to make those who left haply.  Huge difference here.

Ha so sign up for a pack now... get it end of october? 

In my opinion the biggest issue is that the current meta has tow major build around cards:gen and baku.  Either these cards should be in less decks via some changes or they should make those cards accesible.  Most casual players dont want to invest in a set from over a year ago for the chance of getting those 2 legends.  Crafting them is fine but casual players want to craft cool fun cards and not ones that feel standard.

Either those 2 legends should be nerfed or made more accesible for everyone.  These feel like reno, and reno had an accesible price point in a fun adventure.  Like reno, if you dont have the respective gen or baku you cant even play a budget version of the deck...   

Another issue is that the current combo decks are super unfun to lose against. In the past losing to savage roar force of nature combo you could try and prepare here.  The current combos you cannot prevent unless you are aggro.  Just not fun for most casual players.  None of my friends play anymore based on those 2 pieces of feedback.

I play an even shaman with jades

FYI they had an expansion that had a big part of it dedicated to graveyard in the sense of cthun synergy in whispers of the old gods.   

Baku... its like reno in that it enables archtypes for all 9 classes...  You want a baku and a gen longterm in your collection.

wild must haves for fun control variety are any of the hero cards, any of the quests, sylvannas, ragnaros, etc   It's hard to really say when we don't know what style you play, and what cards you already have...  I think if you don't have all the hero cards yet, I would focus on crafting them as they give each of the classes a cool win condition that you can build decks around, same with the quests.  I love all the dragons, reno decks, etc.  Right now I am playing a reno shaman control deck in wild, its kind of fun.

He plays wild.. so umbra is the safest as it can be used in 9 classes vs 1.