Hearthpwn

The concept is good, the execution was poor.

Snip Snap has helped make mech decks even more oppressive.  Some of the card buffs were totally unnecessary.  Did warrior really need 2 of it's less good mechs buffed and the ability to discover snip snaps?  It was a already an oppressive deck.  It's now totally busted and needs several nerfs.

Did mage need another win condition in luna's pocket galaxy?

Did hunter need it's double deathrattle card buffed and snip snap?

Did paladin need it's already great and played 2 mana draw 2 reduced to 1 mana?

A lot of the changes buffed the already broken top tier classes.

This meta is terrible imo and is not going to get better without another round of nerfs.

Quote from Dendroid >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

Master's call is the most broken card draw card in the game.  3 mana draw 3 beasts is even better than draw 3 from the top.  Especially with dire frenzy and zul'jin replaying it.  It's massively under costed.  The card needs to be nerfed to 5 mana and it will still be good.

Blizzard said card draw and generation is meant to be a limitation of hunter.  Why do the have the best card draw spell in the game then?

 They just printed Khadgar, yet want us to believe Mage is bad at minion swarms.  There are many examples but they all highlight the incompetence on display and the point is clear, they think Dr.Boom is fun to play against.

 Exactly.  Mage flooding the board with massive minions in the mid game then freezing your board and going face is fun?  A limitation of mage?  I'm not seeing it.  Oh yes let's give them another win condition with pocket galaxy as well.

Also face damage is meant to be a limitation of warrior.  WTF are 10 bombs in your deck combined with the best control kit ever in the game.  Regular DR boom was considered op.  How about DR boom with 6 boom bots with rush? 

This design team is clueless.  They don't even stick to their own design principles for the classes.

3 nerfs needed to the 3 most broken classes.

Masters call nerfed to 5 mana.  3 mana draw 3 beasts in hunter is beyond broken.  It's even better than draw 3 from the top.  The single best card draw spell in the game.  Dire frenzy and Zul'jin make it even more insane.

Conjurers calling on mage nerfed to 4 mana.  Busted spell that is undercosted.

Omega devastator on warrior loses mech tag.  Their kit is already insane without this broken card and discovering more copies of it.

Master's call is the most broken card draw card in the game.  3 mana draw 3 beasts is even better than draw 3 from the top.  Especially with dire frenzy and zul'jin replaying it.  It's massively under costed.  The card needs to be nerfed to 5 mana and it will still be good.

Blizzard said card draw and generation is meant to be a limitation of hunter.  Why do the have the best card draw spell in the game then?

 Some of the buffs are good.  Others are short sighted and bad.

2 warrior mech buffs when they already an oppressive top tier deck.  Granted they don't run either of those mechs but they do discover them.

The double deathrattle hunter card is another problem.  Bomb/mech hunter is another top tier deck.  It does not need this major buff.

Mages conjurers calling should have been nerfed along with warrior dr boom hero as well.

Then we have priest being able to otk on T5 as well.  This meta is going to get worse before it get's better.

Quote from Cleef >>

@mojo your assumption is that the classic set is not bought a lot and blizzard will make more revenue (by attracting new players) when they would make it free.

My assumption is that the classic set is being bought (who has bought the welcome bundle...) and that blizzard would have made the decision to make the set free when that would make them more revenue.

My assumption is based on the intelligence of the sales department of a big (successful) company. Also it's known that the amount of registered users has increased by 40% between half 2017 to end of 2018 (to 100 million). This doesn't say anything about active users, but makes clear that there is a big enough influx of (potential) new players still. Part of those players will stick around and another part will spend money on the game.

We both made assumptions and we are both uncertain if those are correct. Calling my assumptions a fallacy however, while maintaining your own assumptions as not being a fallacy, gives the impression you are not willing to listen to other opinions.

That is your right, but doesn't add anything to the discussion either.

 That's a fair point.  There are a lot of assumptions being made.  We don't have the figures to know what the reality is.  Registered users means nothing though.  It's the retention of those users that is the important figure.

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

 
You had time to build up that collection when there were less card's along with all the free cards, packs and quests.  It is harder than ever to do.  

 This is 100 percent false. It is actually EASIER than ever.

• They have significantly increased the average gold rewards per quest.
• The requirements for quest completion are now absolutely trivial compared to what they were before.
• Expansions were coming out all the time back then, too. You HAD to pay cash or gold for Naxx, and those cards were essential for Ranked play. GvG was out in December of the first year, long before it would have been possible for any free player to complete the Classic set.

I'm aware that they market Hearthstone as free to play. Thanks for the snide google. But I think every reasonable person is aware that that's just marketing. It's not Blizzard announcing themselves as a charity. They do hope and expect that you'll give them money at some point. It is, in fact, their only reason for existing as a company.

Blizzard's current business model is to convert free players to paying players by making them want more cards faster than a free player can accumulate them. The psychological pressure to do so is much stronger than the desire to buy cosmetic items.

You already get 14.6 percent of the game for free, in the form of Basic cards. Classic represents another 26.3 percent. You are asking them to give away 41 percent of the Standard game without charge. That's ridiculous.

 It's not 100% false.  I'll tear your argument apart if you like though.

The gold rewards have not significantly increased for those who swapped their quests until they got 60g+.  It's pretty much the same.  Only difference now is you get a minimum of 50g instead of 40g.

The quests are easier sure.  That doesn't mean more gold though.

It was far far easier to keep up with expansions as a F2P player back then.  Every second expansion was an adventure mode with 5 wings.  1 wing free and 700g for each of the rest.  A measly 2800g for every single card in the expansion.  This allowed you to save a lot for the next real full expansion then as well.  This is why they moved away from this model.  The fact that you are suggesting that it was harder back when it was this model is laughable and proves you are completely clueless.

That number is including cards that got HoF so it's actually lower.  The majority of those cards are unplayable and you know it.  This is also the very start of a new rotation.  That % will drop when we get a 5th and 6th expansion for this year.  Most likely more cards will be HoF over time as well.

What about at least making the class cards free.  Keeping the neutrals as collectables.  Something has to be done as the current state of the game is awful for new players.  Denying this is just wrong.

Quote from GTProductor >>

This sounds like a nice idea, but in reality, it would decimate their economy because then the best option is to just play wild for free for example, and then people would potentially rather wait for old cards to rotate out so they can get them for free.

Also, it'd be a big middle finger to those who spent cash on adventures and old wild sets.

 I don't know why a handful of you keep repeating this as if it was fact.  What wild decks are using only classic cards?  You still need a crap load of cards from a lot of different expansions to make the best wild decks.  Nobody is suggesting constantly making rotating cards free either.  We're talking about making the classic set free.  Nothing else.

Quote from TaoofWar >>

While a charitable thought, the end effect would be detrimental to the game.

It would benefit me greatly. I started in mate MSoG and really only have cards from Mammoth on, being largely F2P. When I play Rogue I have to play without double prep and double SI:7, I still don’t have two copies of Blizzard, Eaglehorn bow, and lightning storm, much less some Classic epics. I’d love to have those holes filled.

And yet, giving them away for free would seriously harm the game, not only in the potential offense taken by more established paying players. 

The need to collect cards in a CCG serves more purposes than monetization. For one, it gives players a goal to strive for. In another game the developers made collecting too easy and even though I was late to the party I was able to get multiple copies of every collectible item without paying a dime (buying them all with premium currency would run close to 10,000$ US). Guess what happened when I finally got my last piece?

I quit the game. There wasn’t enough of a challenge anymore. 

Obviously that’s not going to happen to everyone every time. Yet losing the draw of collecting would lose the game some of its players. 

Secondly, collecting serves as a gateway to the game. In game design we talk about the learning curve of a game. And CCGs in particular have a solid approach to the learning curve: basic sets and a slow accumulation of cards. Consider the first time you played MtG, odds are someone gave you a mono red Sligh deck and you went face. Or perhaps a token green, the individual deck doesn’t matter. All your learning curve was the cards in your (likely borrowed) deck and the ones on the table in front of you. Most games have since come out with preconstructed boxed sets to help catch players who may not have the friendly aid of a loaner deck. SW:CCG was ridiculously complex, but starting with the pre-built decks, the mental load was significantly reduced. Hearthstone is no different. Wonder why they hit FWA with a mana bump instead of some text? FWA is basic, and one of the cards by which a level 1 Warrior learns what a weapon is. Starting out a new game with hundreds of different moving pieces would lend to choice paralysis and players would walk away.

This is only going to get worse. Could you imagine walking into a game store and asking to about MtG and being sat down at a table and handed 4x of every card from Alpha to Ravnica and being told “have fun!”. Experienced players would drool at the chance, a beginner would be more likely to run away and never look back. 

But let’s say you’re an avid collector and had the fortitude to get through the mountain of cards handed to you on day one. Now what?

Well, you’ve got a few options. Arena looks interesting, but you don’t have much gold. Standard is supposed to be the main event, but you don’t have much of those cards, compared to the third option: most of the cards you got excited about are flagged as “Wild only” so let’s play wild. Great, welcome to the game: Big Priest.  Odd Warrior. Hourlock.   Well, you have enough of those cards to try some of those so let’s try that. Huh. That’s what Hearthstone is like? 

The game just lost another group of players. 

But say you push through even that. Welcome to the game, get buried in cards, play Wild and love it. Awesome. Now. At what point would you ever be incentivized to spend money? The cards in Standard (the only ones that require paying for in this world) don’t make a huge portion of influence in Wild. Maybe a card here or there. Ziliax looks good, maybe I’ll dust Millhouse and a few other obviously trash cards for him. What’s that? By making everything free you’ve made them undustable? Well, in return for the chance of a new player buying a few packs you’ve pissed off an even larger chunk of your older players. And what’s more, why pay anything for Ziliax? He’ll be free in another 10 months or so. 

They’d need to amp the appeal of the newest set(s) hard to even stand a chance of making a dime. Each new set would need stronger-than-KFT/Kobolds type cards for them to appreciably make Wild-only new players even think about opening their wallets. Which means that those who can’t/won’t simply will not be able to compete. 

Congratulations, you’ve either bankrupted the game or driven it to an entirely P2W model. All by trying to make things free and easier for beginners. Hopefully you don’t work in game development. 

Though I understand there’s some positions in the US Government opening up soon. You sound like you’d fit in just fine there. 

 You don't give it all day 1.  You expand upon the current free basic cards with quests and pve content to gradually introduce them to the cards and unlock them.  I already linked how many cards are used from the classic set in standard, do you want me to do the same for wild?  You will still need a lot of cards for any of those decks.  You still have 4-6 expansions to collect from for standard.  A lot more for wild.  That's around 1000-1500 cards for standard.  Nearly double that for wild.  You will not be getting these by simply F2P.  That's a fact.  Ziliax won't be free in a few months.  This isn't a continuous trend.  A whole wall of text and not a single good argument in it outside of it pissing off a bunch of selfish assholes which it would.  It already is a P2W model.  If you can't see that then you are pretty ignorant.

Quote from RainePhire >>

As Blizzard has previously made very clear, the classic set acts as the basis for most successful and enduring decks, for example Zoo Warlock or Control Mage. Most of the necessary cards to build the deck are found in the classic set, and since it doesn't rotate the decks will always be there in some capacity. Blizzard has nerfed classic and basic cards (or moved them to the hall of fame) since these long-enduring decks are always so prominent. Blizzard likes to have unique metas and some cards don't allow for that, however they still like to keep basic archetypes as part of a class's identity.

In  my opinion, Blizzard won't dare to make the classic set free as it will hurt their profits ,as a business, too much. If everyone gets the classic cards for free then there won't be much point in spending actual money on the game as you could just use in-game gold to buy packs and won't really need to anyways since you will have most of the key components for any deck and could just operate off of free packs from events. Also,  there is a lifetime quest to collect all of the classic cards so that would just hurt Blizzard's profit even more.

 

 No they aren't.  I already linked how many classic cards are used in all of the top 2 tiers of decks.  It's an average of 10.  That's 33% of the deck.  You still need to collect a shit load of cards.  Even more for wild.  You will never catch up by F2P.  You have to spend money if you want all the other cards unless you were on-board from the start which I was and I still have to spend money despite doing nearly all of dailies since the game released.

Allow me to tear your argument apart.

Control warrior uses 12-13 classic cards.  You still need a lot from other sets.

Tempo rogue is the main 1 at 20 classic cards.  This is always the case with rogue since their base set is so so strong and will most likely be altered in the future.

Thief rogue uses 13 classic cards.

Zoolock uses 13 classic cards.

Token druid uses 6 classic cards.

Bomb warrior uses 8 classic cards.

Summoner mage uses 7-8 classic cards.

Mech hunter uses 6 classic cards.

Control shaman uses 8 classic cards.

That's the majority of the top 2 tiers of decks coming in at an average of 10.5 classic cards per deck.  I think you're going to need more than a handful of cards to complete these decks.

Keeping in mind this is standard directly after a rotation.  Less and less classic cards will be used as more sets are released over the year.

I find it hard to comprehend how getting the rest of the set for free would put you off playing the game.  You still have a shit load of cards to collect.

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

WTF does having a job got to do with it.  Paying a reasonable amount for a game is 1 thing.  Dropping hundreds or thousands on day 1 just to try and catch up is another.

No you won't be getting 50% win rate with a small collection.  Not even close.

You guys don't even know how to make a cohesive argument.  All I see is the same selfish reasons.

A whale needs some bait to even tempt them into spending money.  Even casuals spending $10 - 20 per expansion need an incentive.  I don't get this forever free bullshit.

Even with the entire classic set free you still have a massive uphill climb to catch up to long term players that will require money.

The fact is this game is 1 of the worst F2P games out there and 100% P2W will put the majority of people off even trying the game.

 This is not a free-to-play game. It is a free-to-TRY game, just like any game with a demo.

The business model works fine. Yes, there was a dip in sales last year, but that's mainly due to bad design decisions from the year before. Team 5 is making much better decisions lately, and it has brought people back to the game.

As for this "selfish" accusation you keep tossing around, I already said I would be perfectly happy if Blizzard found a way to make a free Classic plan work. But I don't believe they can. It does not make financial sense.

It is not selfish for me to want Hearthstone to succeed. It is selfish for free and low-budget players to expect so much free stuff that Activision/Blizzard start to wonder if further Hearthstone development is worth the trouble.

But honestly? Everyone who already owns most of the Classic set either spent a lot of money or a lot of time collecting those cards. Until those  cards were collected, the game was a struggle for each and every player. That's just how it is in the beginning. I was nowhere near having a full Classic set for like three years, but somehow i managed to enjoy the game.

The secret to enjoying Hearthstone (or any other hobby, or life in general) is to stop worrying about what other people have that you do not. If you don't like what you can do with what you have, stop playing. If Blizzard misses you, maybe they'll do something about it. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

 I suggest you google search hearthstone and tell me what the first result you see says.  I'll save you the bother.

Hearthstone™ Free to play Game | Join millions of players‎

There is a way to make it work.  Just make the cards free but I guess they can't when there are so many selfish assholes who would kick up a shitstorm if they did.

You had time to build up that collection when there were less card's along with all the free cards, packs and quests.  It is harder than ever to do.  Like all F2P games it's a lot easier if you were onboard early.  That's why other F2P games reduce the cost of things or make things free that previously cost money.

You have no argument outside of selfish reasons which is why I keep saying it.  You keep proving it with your words.

I said already I have the entire classic set and over 90% of the total cards.  This is not for me.  This is a honest view of the state of the game for new players.  Where is the proof that blizzard would lose money by making it free?

That's nothing but an assumption.  It is however a fact that this game is terrible for new players.

WTF does having a job got to do with it.  Paying a reasonable amount for a game is 1 thing.  Dropping hundreds or thousands on day 1 just to try and catch up is another.

No you won't be getting 50% win rate with a small collection.  Not even close.

You guys don't even know how to make a cohesive argument.  All I see is the same selfish reasons.

A whale needs some bait to even tempt them into spending money.  Even casuals spending $10 - 20 per expansion need an incentive.  I don't get this forever free bullshit.

Even with the entire classic set free you still have a massive uphill climb to catch up to long term players that will require money.

The fact is this game is 1 of the worst F2P games out there and 100% P2W will put the majority of people off even trying the game.

Quote from Cleef >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

Have you seen the posts being made by the no side?  Do I really have to link them to prove my point.

Some of the most toxic arrogant selfish and insulting shit but I don't see you calling them out.

How bout you tackle my points and not pick and chose my valid criticisms of those who are voting no.

Do you think this game is good for new players?  Would you recommend this game to friends.  If you are answering yes to either then you know nothing about good game balance or development of a good F2P experience.

 Have you seen my post (page 7 last one) you can disagree but it's not selfish. Without enough revenue from HS the game will be closed down. That's bad for everybody. I'm f2p myself and started after unguro so I understand what people are coming from, but I don't think this is the solution (if there is a problem, which I'm also not certain about)

 
No that's not a selfish point but it is a fallacy imo.  The classic set is at this stage only a small % of the overall card pool.  They are losing more revenue by not attracting enough new players while more and more older players leave the game.

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

Do you think this game is good for new players?  Would you recommend this game to friends.

 Great, let's have a decent discussion without insulting people. I'm game!  Do I think Hearthstone is good for new players?  Well, we have to define what the parameters of "good" are, since otherwise that is merely an subjective opinion and just because I think it is doesn't necessarily mean someone else will.  Just for argument's sake, let's define that as, "Can a player who's never played a competitive card game before download Hearthstone and expect to hit Rank 15 after learning the mechanics and basic strategy without spending more than the cost of an average game (say $40)?"  Yes, I do think so.  There are plenty of resources on strategy, how to optimize gold farming for packs, what the best decks are for those on a gold/real money budget, and budget versions of top decks.  And really, you don't need a legend-viable deck to hit Rank 15.  You just need some time and dedication to learning the game.  Also there are countless streams and youtube channels of top players that you can watch in order to understand their thought process and apply it to your own games.

Would I recommend this game to new players?  Sure, I'd recommend it to certain people.  I would not recommend it to someone who just wants a mobile game they can play quickly and easily without any investment of time or money. 

Glad we could have this chat without insulting each other!

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

If you are answering yes to either then you know nothing about good game balance or development of a good F2P experience.

 Oh wait, there it is.  

 Yes and that learning experience is hard enough without having a tiny card pool and the inability to make any half decent deck.  Half of the tavern brawls are impossible too unless someone let's them win.

Why invest any time in the game when the PvP experience for new players is terrible.  That is not a matter of opinion.  It's fact.  There are so many other good F2P games that allow you to compete right from the start on a somewhat level playing field.  It's only your game knowledge and mechanical skills that need to improve.

Hearthstone in it's current form is 1 of the worst pay 2 win games out there for new players and you need to pay a lot....  What's the incentive outside of gambling addiction?

Here's some quotes from the no voters.  You might understand my hard stance when you read this crap from ignorant toxic and/or selfish fools who only care about themselves.

 It is funny how concept of working, investing your time, to earn money to buy something just flies over the heads of the poor and jobless.

 Ah, the joys of the poor.

Investment, as in investing money to purchase something.

We have many communists over here

I'm not speaking from a perspective, where I have all the cards, and I would be jealous on others getting some good gifts. I just think about others at this point. I'm still missing a little bit less than half of the Legendaries and epics, so this would definitely be a win-win for me too, but I don't feel that it is fair... Personally I grinded for more than two years to get to the point where I am right now, and this step from Blizz. would take away all the justified and well earned prize from me, and even more from Old players...

Sorry but I am 100% against this idea. Why? Don’t I want to help people? Well, honestly no, not in this way. People can decide for themselves if they want to spend money on the game or be f2p, both choices are fine. But it is a choice. To punish those people who invested heavily in the past by giving Classic for free is not fair and it makes no sense. It will help some people, sure but it has no benefit for the game in the long term. It will also make people think twice before they spend money on the game. 

I will even go so far as to say that if Blizzard actually ever does this then that’s it for me, I will never spend another cent on HS or any game in future. 

i voted no bc it would devalue my collection significantly.

No, and if than, ppl who bought  packs at that time should get the exact amount of packs they bought in gold. Period

No. Its not fair to players that paid or played alot to get these cards.

once again F2P should just be happy they can play this game for free, because of us P2P players. Dont get greedy..

How about the fact that I spent thousands on the classic set, I am 20k dust away from full golden classic set. Don’t you think I’ll be asking for a refund if every I paid for eventually becomes free. Same thing goes for my complete wild collection.

Imagine having this shit attitude towards other things in life. You came late to something and you whine and demand that you want to skip the initial grind and effort to get closer to those who have been there for years.

Hopefully HS slaps a monthly sub fee to kick out the ungrateful trash

Poor and stuid, my friend, no help for those people

Could link more but there is no need.

Just saying, "I know I'm right and anyone who disagrees is a selfish twat" is probably not the best stance to take, if you'd like to have a good discussion. 

Except I didn't just say that.  I said a lot of other things too that you chose to ignore.

Have you seen the posts being made by the no side?  Do I really have to link them to prove my point.

Some of the most toxic arrogant selfish and insulting shit but I don't see you calling them out.

How bout you tackle my points and not pick and chose my valid criticisms of those who are voting no.

Do you think this game is good for new players?  Would you recommend this game to friends.  If you are answering yes to either then you know nothing about good game balance or development of a good F2P experience.

This game as it stands is a shitty experience for new players.  That is an undeniable fact.  I would love to see the retention rate for new people who try the game.

Quote from Padge >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

Quote from GorreVisor >>

What people here don't realise is that this is a card COLLECTING game.

If you are handed the collection over, there's not much to work for  isn't it? Also, part of the value from the cards comes from their rarity.

Even know, not everyone has 2 Brawls or 2 Pyroblasts, and definitely not every single top-tier classic legendary.

I started a new account in November and got a semi-decent collection in 3 weeks. Nothing fancy, but definitely enough to try out a many things.

What they could improve at, is starting dust amount after finishing starter ranks, better matchmaking and fixing casual (imo, the best thing they could do there is giving the option to ban 6-9 non-legendary cards).

 There are still thousands of cards to collect even with the entire classic set free.  There is no "value" to the cards.  They can not be traded.

Still nobody in the no camp with a good argument.

Would you recommend this game to any of your friends?  You are a pretty lousy friend if you answer yes.

 You're extremely blinkered and clearly have no time for any opinion or agenda that doesn't match you own. Debating or discussion is not your bag, it would be better if you just left it alone to be honest. You're now at the point of just repeating the same thing, no one is going to change your mind and your posts are steadily creeping towards intolerance. I don't think there's much left for you to really add to this discussion. 

There have been plenty of alternative ideas or reasons people wouldn't like this change. You're literally just ignoring them or saying they aren't good reasons, which is your opinion. If you really can't grasp why someone might have a problem with it, even if you personally disagree with it, you're beyond help. 

 I know I'm right.  That's the thing.  All of the arguments for no are selfish childish reasons.  I also own the entire classic set earned the hard way but I wouldn't care if it became free for new players because I'm not a selfish twat and would like to see more new players in the game.  The argument that blizzard would make less money is bullshit imo.  Pulling more new players into the game = more money.  There is still a massive amount of cards to collect.  The other argument is "I'm a degenerate gambler who spent thousands on the game.  How dare they give cards I spent hundreds on to new players for free."  Selfish.

I've put forward examples from blizzards own titles of offering free things that cost others time and money.  There are many more examples from other games.

This game is awful for new players.  A F2P game should offer a decent experience starting off so that you want to spend money further down the line.  You should not be required to spend money right from the start or dust every card you get to try and build 1 cheap ok deck.  You will never build up a collection that way.

Even with the entire classic set you need to start collecting from 4-6 expansions for standard.  1000 - 1500 or so cards.  Many more for wild.  Other games give shit for free that people paid for initially.  Putting a value of time or money on digital crap is just stupid.

To flip your argument why don't new players get all the free cards, packs, quests, dungeon wings and gold that you got over that time.  Things change.  The game needs to evolve to attract new players.  Making the classic set free is the best way to do that.

I'll give you and all the no voters an analogy that your thick heads might understand.  Imagine playing another F2P game like heroes of the storm or league of legends where your starting character was the power level of a lane minion and it would take weeks/months before you could even start to get close to being even able to damage other players.  That is what hearthstone is like atm.