Hearthpwn

The concept is good, the execution was poor.

Snip Snap has helped make mech decks even more oppressive.  Some of the card buffs were totally unnecessary.  Did warrior really need 2 of it's less good mechs buffed and the ability to discover snip snaps?  It was a already an oppressive deck.  It's now totally busted and needs several nerfs.

Did mage need another win condition in luna's pocket galaxy?

Did hunter need it's double deathrattle card buffed and snip snap?

Did paladin need it's already great and played 2 mana draw 2 reduced to 1 mana?

A lot of the changes buffed the already broken top tier classes.

This meta is terrible imo and is not going to get better without another round of nerfs.

Master's call is the most broken card draw card in the game.  3 mana draw 3 beasts is even better than draw 3 from the top.  Especially with dire frenzy and zul'jin replaying it.  It's massively under costed.  The card needs to be nerfed to 5 mana and it will still be good.

Blizzard said card draw and generation is meant to be a limitation of hunter.  Why do the have the best card draw spell in the game then?

Quote from Cleef >>

@mojo your assumption is that the classic set is not bought a lot and blizzard will make more revenue (by attracting new players) when they would make it free.

My assumption is that the classic set is being bought (who has bought the welcome bundle...) and that blizzard would have made the decision to make the set free when that would make them more revenue.

My assumption is based on the intelligence of the sales department of a big (successful) company. Also it's known that the amount of registered users has increased by 40% between half 2017 to end of 2018 (to 100 million). This doesn't say anything about active users, but makes clear that there is a big enough influx of (potential) new players still. Part of those players will stick around and another part will spend money on the game.

We both made assumptions and we are both uncertain if those are correct. Calling my assumptions a fallacy however, while maintaining your own assumptions as not being a fallacy, gives the impression you are not willing to listen to other opinions.

That is your right, but doesn't add anything to the discussion either.

 That's a fair point.  There are a lot of assumptions being made.  We don't have the figures to know what the reality is.  Registered users means nothing though.  It's the retention of those users that is the important figure.

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

 
You had time to build up that collection when there were less card's along with all the free cards, packs and quests.  It is harder than ever to do.  

 This is 100 percent false. It is actually EASIER than ever.

• They have significantly increased the average gold rewards per quest.
• The requirements for quest completion are now absolutely trivial compared to what they were before.
• Expansions were coming out all the time back then, too. You HAD to pay cash or gold for Naxx, and those cards were essential for Ranked play. GvG was out in December of the first year, long before it would have been possible for any free player to complete the Classic set.

I'm aware that they market Hearthstone as free to play. Thanks for the snide google. But I think every reasonable person is aware that that's just marketing. It's not Blizzard announcing themselves as a charity. They do hope and expect that you'll give them money at some point. It is, in fact, their only reason for existing as a company.

Blizzard's current business model is to convert free players to paying players by making them want more cards faster than a free player can accumulate them. The psychological pressure to do so is much stronger than the desire to buy cosmetic items.

You already get 14.6 percent of the game for free, in the form of Basic cards. Classic represents another 26.3 percent. You are asking them to give away 41 percent of the Standard game without charge. That's ridiculous.

 It's not 100% false.  I'll tear your argument apart if you like though.

The gold rewards have not significantly increased for those who swapped their quests until they got 60g+.  It's pretty much the same.  Only difference now is you get a minimum of 50g instead of 40g.

The quests are easier sure.  That doesn't mean more gold though.

It was far far easier to keep up with expansions as a F2P player back then.  Every second expansion was an adventure mode with 5 wings.  1 wing free and 700g for each of the rest.  A measly 2800g for every single card in the expansion.  This allowed you to save a lot for the next real full expansion then as well.  This is why they moved away from this model.  The fact that you are suggesting that it was harder back when it was this model is laughable and proves you are completely clueless.

That number is including cards that got HoF so it's actually lower.  The majority of those cards are unplayable and you know it.  This is also the very start of a new rotation.  That % will drop when we get a 5th and 6th expansion for this year.  Most likely more cards will be HoF over time as well.

What about at least making the class cards free.  Keeping the neutrals as collectables.  Something has to be done as the current state of the game is awful for new players.  Denying this is just wrong.

Quote from GTProductor >>

This sounds like a nice idea, but in reality, it would decimate their economy because then the best option is to just play wild for free for example, and then people would potentially rather wait for old cards to rotate out so they can get them for free.

Also, it'd be a big middle finger to those who spent cash on adventures and old wild sets.

 I don't know why a handful of you keep repeating this as if it was fact.  What wild decks are using only classic cards?  You still need a crap load of cards from a lot of different expansions to make the best wild decks.  Nobody is suggesting constantly making rotating cards free either.  We're talking about making the classic set free.  Nothing else.

Quote from TaoofWar >>

While a charitable thought, the end effect would be detrimental to the game.

It would benefit me greatly. I started in mate MSoG and really only have cards from Mammoth on, being largely F2P. When I play Rogue I have to play without double prep and double SI:7, I still don’t have two copies of Blizzard, Eaglehorn bow, and lightning storm, much less some Classic epics. I’d love to have those holes filled.

And yet, giving them away for free would seriously harm the game, not only in the potential offense taken by more established paying players. 

The need to collect cards in a CCG serves more purposes than monetization. For one, it gives players a goal to strive for. In another game the developers made collecting too easy and even though I was late to the party I was able to get multiple copies of every collectible item without paying a dime (buying them all with premium currency would run close to 10,000$ US). Guess what happened when I finally got my last piece?

I quit the game. There wasn’t enough of a challenge anymore. 

Obviously that’s not going to happen to everyone every time. Yet losing the draw of collecting would lose the game some of its players. 

Secondly, collecting serves as a gateway to the game. In game design we talk about the learning curve of a game. And CCGs in particular have a solid approach to the learning curve: basic sets and a slow accumulation of cards. Consider the first time you played MtG, odds are someone gave you a mono red Sligh deck and you went face. Or perhaps a token green, the individual deck doesn’t matter. All your learning curve was the cards in your (likely borrowed) deck and the ones on the table in front of you. Most games have since come out with preconstructed boxed sets to help catch players who may not have the friendly aid of a loaner deck. SW:CCG was ridiculously complex, but starting with the pre-built decks, the mental load was significantly reduced. Hearthstone is no different. Wonder why they hit FWA with a mana bump instead of some text? FWA is basic, and one of the cards by which a level 1 Warrior learns what a weapon is. Starting out a new game with hundreds of different moving pieces would lend to choice paralysis and players would walk away.

This is only going to get worse. Could you imagine walking into a game store and asking to about MtG and being sat down at a table and handed 4x of every card from Alpha to Ravnica and being told “have fun!”. Experienced players would drool at the chance, a beginner would be more likely to run away and never look back. 

But let’s say you’re an avid collector and had the fortitude to get through the mountain of cards handed to you on day one. Now what?

Well, you’ve got a few options. Arena looks interesting, but you don’t have much gold. Standard is supposed to be the main event, but you don’t have much of those cards, compared to the third option: most of the cards you got excited about are flagged as “Wild only” so let’s play wild. Great, welcome to the game: Big Priest.  Odd Warrior. Hourlock.   Well, you have enough of those cards to try some of those so let’s try that. Huh. That’s what Hearthstone is like? 

The game just lost another group of players. 

But say you push through even that. Welcome to the game, get buried in cards, play Wild and love it. Awesome. Now. At what point would you ever be incentivized to spend money? The cards in Standard (the only ones that require paying for in this world) don’t make a huge portion of influence in Wild. Maybe a card here or there. Ziliax looks good, maybe I’ll dust Millhouse and a few other obviously trash cards for him. What’s that? By making everything free you’ve made them undustable? Well, in return for the chance of a new player buying a few packs you’ve pissed off an even larger chunk of your older players. And what’s more, why pay anything for Ziliax? He’ll be free in another 10 months or so. 

They’d need to amp the appeal of the newest set(s) hard to even stand a chance of making a dime. Each new set would need stronger-than-KFT/Kobolds type cards for them to appreciably make Wild-only new players even think about opening their wallets. Which means that those who can’t/won’t simply will not be able to compete. 

Congratulations, you’ve either bankrupted the game or driven it to an entirely P2W model. All by trying to make things free and easier for beginners. Hopefully you don’t work in game development. 

Though I understand there’s some positions in the US Government opening up soon. You sound like you’d fit in just fine there. 

 You don't give it all day 1.  You expand upon the current free basic cards with quests and pve content to gradually introduce them to the cards and unlock them.  I already linked how many cards are used from the classic set in standard, do you want me to do the same for wild?  You will still need a lot of cards for any of those decks.  You still have 4-6 expansions to collect from for standard.  A lot more for wild.  That's around 1000-1500 cards for standard.  Nearly double that for wild.  You will not be getting these by simply F2P.  That's a fact.  Ziliax won't be free in a few months.  This isn't a continuous trend.  A whole wall of text and not a single good argument in it outside of it pissing off a bunch of selfish assholes which it would.  It already is a P2W model.  If you can't see that then you are pretty ignorant.

Quote from RainePhire >>

As Blizzard has previously made very clear, the classic set acts as the basis for most successful and enduring decks, for example Zoo Warlock or Control Mage. Most of the necessary cards to build the deck are found in the classic set, and since it doesn't rotate the decks will always be there in some capacity. Blizzard has nerfed classic and basic cards (or moved them to the hall of fame) since these long-enduring decks are always so prominent. Blizzard likes to have unique metas and some cards don't allow for that, however they still like to keep basic archetypes as part of a class's identity.

In  my opinion, Blizzard won't dare to make the classic set free as it will hurt their profits ,as a business, too much. If everyone gets the classic cards for free then there won't be much point in spending actual money on the game as you could just use in-game gold to buy packs and won't really need to anyways since you will have most of the key components for any deck and could just operate off of free packs from events. Also,  there is a lifetime quest to collect all of the classic cards so that would just hurt Blizzard's profit even more.

 

 No they aren't.  I already linked how many classic cards are used in all of the top 2 tiers of decks.  It's an average of 10.  That's 33% of the deck.  You still need to collect a shit load of cards.  Even more for wild.  You will never catch up by F2P.  You have to spend money if you want all the other cards unless you were on-board from the start which I was and I still have to spend money despite doing nearly all of dailies since the game released.

Allow me to tear your argument apart.

Control warrior uses 12-13 classic cards.  You still need a lot from other sets.

Tempo rogue is the main 1 at 20 classic cards.  This is always the case with rogue since their base set is so so strong and will most likely be altered in the future.

Thief rogue uses 13 classic cards.

Zoolock uses 13 classic cards.

Token druid uses 6 classic cards.

Bomb warrior uses 8 classic cards.

Summoner mage uses 7-8 classic cards.

Mech hunter uses 6 classic cards.

Control shaman uses 8 classic cards.

That's the majority of the top 2 tiers of decks coming in at an average of 10.5 classic cards per deck.  I think you're going to need more than a handful of cards to complete these decks.

Keeping in mind this is standard directly after a rotation.  Less and less classic cards will be used as more sets are released over the year.

I find it hard to comprehend how getting the rest of the set for free would put you off playing the game.  You still have a shit load of cards to collect.

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

WTF does having a job got to do with it.  Paying a reasonable amount for a game is 1 thing.  Dropping hundreds or thousands on day 1 just to try and catch up is another.

No you won't be getting 50% win rate with a small collection.  Not even close.

You guys don't even know how to make a cohesive argument.  All I see is the same selfish reasons.

A whale needs some bait to even tempt them into spending money.  Even casuals spending $10 - 20 per expansion need an incentive.  I don't get this forever free bullshit.

Even with the entire classic set free you still have a massive uphill climb to catch up to long term players that will require money.

The fact is this game is 1 of the worst F2P games out there and 100% P2W will put the majority of people off even trying the game.

 This is not a free-to-play game. It is a free-to-TRY game, just like any game with a demo.

The business model works fine. Yes, there was a dip in sales last year, but that's mainly due to bad design decisions from the year before. Team 5 is making much better decisions lately, and it has brought people back to the game.

As for this "selfish" accusation you keep tossing around, I already said I would be perfectly happy if Blizzard found a way to make a free Classic plan work. But I don't believe they can. It does not make financial sense.

It is not selfish for me to want Hearthstone to succeed. It is selfish for free and low-budget players to expect so much free stuff that Activision/Blizzard start to wonder if further Hearthstone development is worth the trouble.

But honestly? Everyone who already owns most of the Classic set either spent a lot of money or a lot of time collecting those cards. Until those  cards were collected, the game was a struggle for each and every player. That's just how it is in the beginning. I was nowhere near having a full Classic set for like three years, but somehow i managed to enjoy the game.

The secret to enjoying Hearthstone (or any other hobby, or life in general) is to stop worrying about what other people have that you do not. If you don't like what you can do with what you have, stop playing. If Blizzard misses you, maybe they'll do something about it. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

 I suggest you google search hearthstone and tell me what the first result you see says.  I'll save you the bother.

Hearthstone™ Free to play Game | Join millions of players‎

There is a way to make it work.  Just make the cards free but I guess they can't when there are so many selfish assholes who would kick up a shitstorm if they did.

You had time to build up that collection when there were less card's along with all the free cards, packs and quests.  It is harder than ever to do.  Like all F2P games it's a lot easier if you were onboard early.  That's why other F2P games reduce the cost of things or make things free that previously cost money.

You have no argument outside of selfish reasons which is why I keep saying it.  You keep proving it with your words.

I said already I have the entire classic set and over 90% of the total cards.  This is not for me.  This is a honest view of the state of the game for new players.  Where is the proof that blizzard would lose money by making it free?

That's nothing but an assumption.  It is however a fact that this game is terrible for new players.

WTF does having a job got to do with it.  Paying a reasonable amount for a game is 1 thing.  Dropping hundreds or thousands on day 1 just to try and catch up is another.

No you won't be getting 50% win rate with a small collection.  Not even close.

You guys don't even know how to make a cohesive argument.  All I see is the same selfish reasons.

A whale needs some bait to even tempt them into spending money.  Even casuals spending $10 - 20 per expansion need an incentive.  I don't get this forever free bullshit.

Even with the entire classic set free you still have a massive uphill climb to catch up to long term players that will require money.

The fact is this game is 1 of the worst F2P games out there and 100% P2W will put the majority of people off even trying the game.

Blah blah, usual selfish reasons.

What about all the free legendary cards and packs that you guys got that new players can not get.  You can't have it both ways.  This game's starting content compared to other F2P games is a joke.  Even with the entire classic set free you won't be making any good decks but at least you can have some fun trying.

You are still going to have to start collecting from 3 - 6 expansions for standard and many more for wild.

Many other games improve their starting experience after release.  Destiny 2 was free for a while.  Did all the people who bought it cry?  Maybe some did but it was to pull new players in who then might buy expansions.  It worked.

Starcraft 2 was made F2P and offered some free expansions.  Wow has offered free expansions too when you bought the latest one.

Why is Hearthstone lagging behind other Blizz/Activision titles for improving the game state for new players.

Haven't seen a single rational argument from the no voters.

This game does not attract new players because of how much is required to build 1 decent deck.

You either have to grind for several years or spent hundreds.  I would never recommend this game to anyone in it's current state.

Looks good.  Kolento is 1 of the best deck builders out there.

This is going to happen for certain at some point. I just don't see it happening for another couple of years yet.

For me collecting is not a driver in fact it´s a way to piss me off if moving into grind or a paywall. Thats why i lost intrest in a bunch of games, next expac, more of all, higher level .... Awwwww.  I want to be creative, construct decks and play with others giving them surprises and having a challenge. So i actually like PvP games where everyone has the same resources as long as there is huge diversity/individually possible.

Quote from Tuscarora87 >>

 All right...

Can you promise me people will stop complaining after the nerfs, when a new "meta shaping" deck arises and each class will struggle again finding a single deck to counter it?

My point is, and I can't believe nobody see it after so many years - when people call for certain nerfs, Blizzard nerfs something else, unrelated, counterproductive. Their reasons are different. People just lose dust and we go again.

People will complain again and again, because they hate losing. Losing a single game in HS feels disastrous, that's a fact, and masses cannot control their passions. Here we have complaining about a mediocre deck like Control Warrior, which is miles weaker than prenerf Cubelock, Quest Rouge, Jade.... I bet, after the nerfs people would start complaining about whatever is now average or bellow average (Resurrect, Silent Priest...) and would believe a single action would solve all the problems forever. 

 Nah, I wouldn't promise that at all.  People always complain but sometimes complaints are justifiable.  I do think Warrior is overtuned right now.  Not by ton and you definitely don't want to nerf only warrior as that could make the meta worse.  It might also be a bit short sighted in the long term because once other classes get some hero cards it might not be as much of an issue.  

Is control warrior miles weaker than those decks?  If you compare them head to head then yea but against their field not so much.  I looked up the vS meta reports on cubelock and jade druid before their nerfs and it's winrate is basically the same, and like warrior they aren't the highest winrates at the time either.  Decks don't always get nerfed on raw power but often for warping the meta strongly.  You can only play mech paladin right now because warriors.  You can only play conjurer mage right now because warriors.  You can't really play any control deck right now because you can't out value warriors and only warriors can control Rogue.  Etc, etc.

Balancing the game probably isn't easy, rogue/warrior/token are shaping the meta and if you touch one then everything changes.  I personally think you slap rogue, warrior, and token with a decent nerf, but not deck killing, and just see what happens.  Kind of like at the beginning of WW meta when all the top decks got nerfed and they were all still good but the meta was a lot more open to other classes/strategies.  

Quote from Mojo_Jojo >>

I don't think either of those decks looks particularly good or look like control decks.

Do you have shudderwock and hagatha hero?  I was having some luck with a dragon control shaman.

List here.  I'm missing a second hagathas scheme.  Cut something for it.  Not a dragon obviously.

### Shudderwock Shaman
# Class: Shaman
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Dragon
#
# 2x (2) Acidic Swamp Ooze
# 2x (2) Doomsayer
# 2x (2) Firetree Witchdoctor
# 2x (2) Menacing Nimbus
# 1x (2) Omega Mind
# 2x (3) Far Sight
# 2x (3) Lightning Storm
# 2x (3) Nightmare Amalgam
# 2x (4) Hex
# 2x (4) Scaleworm
# 2x (5) Dragonmaw Scorcher
# 1x (5) Hagatha's Scheme
# 1x (5) Zilliax
# 2x (7) Crowd Roaster
# 1x (8) Archivist Elysiana
# 1x (8) Hagatha the Witch
# 2x (8) Walking Fountain
# 1x (9) Shudderwock
#

AAECAaoIBqfuAu/3ApeAA6CAA62RA4adAwyKAfUE/gWyBooHifECioAD3oID6IkD7IkDipQD6JQDAA==

 I've tried almost the exact same thing, though with Elysiana, no second ooze. Maybe no Zilliax to make room for the extra scheme. Scheme + Omega mind is a full heal plus board clear, and Shudderwock is really good with the dragon package, especially if you can hold one on the nightmare amalgams in your hand.

I just don't get why is the ramp up the problem! Was it in the past? NO! So why is now the problem? This question must be answered!

Maybe because they put so much draw and armor the last two years? Maybe because they printed a 3-cost card that will draw one card and give almost all the times more than 6 armor? Way better than warriors? Maybe because it was in his archetype the ramp up and decided to give more value in ramp up by printing UI? Maybe because  they gave the insane branching paths or easy removals like spellstones that combo with the previous cards I  reffered?

DK was fine though not that strong.

So we should ask ourselves! For 3 years was ramp up a problem? Why the last year is? Is the ramp up the actual problem?

Finally, I wanted to say that they didn't destroy only the combo decks that were based in insane draw and armor, but they kill also the good old big druid! A deck that defines druid AND IS DRUID! It wasn't the combo decks that define the class but big druid among 2-3 others.

A good nerf would be for example UI to spawn a 3-3 minion! There are many ideas. Those nerfs was just this "put the problem under the carpet"

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Easy to farm if you pick odd warrior sure.  Great polarising meta with very little variety of decks.  That is why we are complaining.

 Exactly, and the meta is even shaping up to counter odd warrior as well which is once again creating this polarized paper-rock-scissors matchups that ruin the game. *Before, it was quest rogue, taunt druid, odd paladin, and tempo (face) mage with polarized matchups against each other (above 60/40). I don't want the game to go back there...

*By before, I mean the most recent polarized meta which was after Boomsday I think.

Some cards in Hearthstone aren't just cards. They're class features expressed as cards. A hero power isn't enough to express class identity, and through Hearthstone's history, certain cards have completed the picture. And what happens when such a card is nerfed? The class is gutted in an irreparable way. Archtypes crumble, never to return except in momentary metas where all the right cards come together to fill the massive void. The devs may think they're balancing the game by nerfing such cards, but they're destroying the core of class balance and identity. They're also destroying our faith that they understand what makes their game work and what it's like to be a player. No two nerfs exemplify this more than Fiery War Axe and Wild Growth. 

Wild Growth was a Druid class feature expressed as a card. Almost every Druid deck used it, and it enabled more late game strategies than any other card. It was clearly overpowered, but every Druid card has been made and balanced while keeping it in mind. Nerfing such a key card requires a complete rebalancing of the class. But we didn't get that, instead we get all of our decks destroyed and dust investment wasted. This nerf was made without preparation - nothing fills the void. And it's hard to have any faith that one or two sets can fix this. The devs have left themselves with the herculean task of filling this void in meta after meta - a task they are sure to fail at more often than not. Nourish was a good nerf, and Spreading Plague was a card that probably never should have been made. But nerfing Wild Growth was setting the Druid class on fire. This is the single worst nerf in Hearthstone's history. The least they could do is nerf Nourish and wait, adding cards to the next set that could fill the void of Wild Growth. The timing is an insult to Druid players. 

In standard, without Fiery War Axe, Warrior needs an unreasonable amount of support for its tempo and aggro archtypes. As we've seen, they often don't come together. In the majority of standard metas these archtypes will be dead without careful focused support. Rush Warrior would likely be great right now if Fiery War Axe cost 2, and it might have an aggro deck too. Control Warrior also relied on Fiery War Axe, and although it has more basic/classic support, such support is purely removal. Fiery War Axe of old helped CW switch gears and attempt to kill you, which there's not enough support for anymore outside the soon to be rotating quest Warrior. What we're left with is tank up/fatigue strategies. It seems to be Warrior's fate now to always be one card away from having tempo strategies work, and always be hoping for extra redundant board clears in sets so it can repeatedly clear. 

This game has hero powers and inherently different classes, and exceptional cards balance them. Those exceptional cards need to be recognized as the class features they are. To nerf them is to give yourself the herculean task of filling the void they leave over and over - or let the archtypes they enabled die. If you're going to nerf them, you need a solid consistent plan to support such archtypes in place before you nerf them. If you can't do this, then don't and stop wasting our dust investments. 

I've been having fun with it in my lower ranks - I've had a number of games go into exhaustion and won via the stalls. The only thing that I've had bad luck with is drawing Uther in the last 2-3 cards a few rounds in a row. Most of the time if I can't start building the OTK combo earlier in the match, I run out of answers. 

Really fun deck though! Thank you!

This deck is so fun and actually viable. 

What about Pixie for the mana coin combo ?