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Quote from J17star »

Nefarian is only competing with Ysera here. What Boom, Rag or Gromm do is irrelevant, as they aren't going to replace or be replaced by Nefarian.

Nefarian gives you two spells immediately. That is something. When you drop it, excluding the body, you get something of value. Now, whether he is overcosted, or too slow ... that is a different matter. Ysera suffers that same problem, even though it's a strong card. KT only offers immediate value if you are ahead or competing for board. It's not strong when behind. Nefarian clearly can be, if the meta is slow enough, because the body + spells will often be significant.

The main problem with the card is getting to Turn 9, and the game still being undecided. The card itself is strong, but only in a vacuum, i think. We shall see.

I was really pointing out the principle for why people run 7+ attack legendaries. In the vast majority of cases, 7+ attack cards that people actually play give you some sort of tempo advantage beyond the large body. Even Ysera, which is one of the most difficult creatures to remove in the game, gives you tempo by giving you an undercosted card, whereas Nefarian gives you no extra tempo because the cards that it gives you will always be standard cost. For a card that you're putting 9 mana into and dies to BGH, that honestly isn't worth it by comparison. The card is both slower and more vulnerable than Ysera, which are weaknesses you want to mitigate as much as possible for your late game minions. The only time it might be faster is if the 8/8 survives, in which case you've already won; A ysera probably would have also won you the game. KT is actually not that situational for having an immediate effect on the board. You only need one minion to survive to get immediate value. But yes, it won't help you if you're far behind. It's much better when both you and your opponent are contesting the board to some extent. Still, at least it gets immediate value some of the time. I would argue that if you're in a losing position, playing either KT or Nefarian will lose you the game. Even if Nefarian gives you flame strike, you've probably taken so much damage from letting your opponent swing at your face for a turn that you won't be able to come back, in most cases. That isn't to say that it can't save you, but it's more of a hail mary in that situation.

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Dropping a turn 9 Nefarian against a mage and killing him with a turn 10 Pyroblast will be the dream.

Karma bruh.

Yes. And getting Mirror Image + Ice Lance while Nefarian gets bgh'ed will be the reality.

Sorry bruh.

You only play against Mage?

Also if he saved BGH for Nefarian, it means my Rag/Alex/Boom doesn't/didn't get BGH'd and that's going to hurt. A LOT.

BGH'able doesn't make a card un-playable. You can have a maximum of 2 BGH in the deck, most decks only run 1, they're not going to have it all the time. And it certainly doesn't mean it'll make all your 7+ Attack minions useless.

He specifically mentioned mage, so I chose mage spells. You can find shitty spells for any class though.

The problem with your second part is that by this reasoning, cards like Gruul would already be great. Yet, they aren't played. Why ? Because firstly, bgh isn't the only removal there is, it's just probably the strongest, and secondly, most removal creates big swings that are hard to recover from unless your card already did something significant. I heavily doubt Nefarian does enough to warrant the risk of such a swing.

Gruul isn't played because he doesn't do anything.

"Because firstly, bgh isn't the only removal there is, it's just probably the strongest, and secondly, most removal creates big swings that are hard to recover from unless your card already did something significant. "

Maybe I didn't get it across good enough, but that was my point.

Imo, Nefarian is in a similar place as Gruul; Though he at least does something immediately, 2 cards that have a decent chance of being completely useless or at best just normal value (unlike dream cards, which most of are underprized by 2 full mana, where the worst you can get is a 4 drop for the price of 3 mana) just don't cut it.

I don't think the card is very good compared to the competition it has, but I wouldn't compare it to Gruul. Gruul dies to BGH and doesn't give you anything. Nefarian dies to BGH while giving you 2 spells so you at least have a chance of getting the board back. 

GUYS. LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE BIG LEGENDARY MINION (except maybe Chromaggus and Ysera) DIES TO BGH. Boom dies to BGH but gives you two 1-1 Boombots... If you can get a 7 mana Nefarian off in the Dragon Paladin and it does get BGH'ed, 2 random spells (from which at least 1 is gonna be good most of the times) is quite nice too... Maybe even better in some cases... Only question is can he give you two of the same spells? Double Flamestrike, Consecration or Holy Nova would be so damn OP..

Boom impacts the board, KT impacts the board a lot of the time, Rag impacts the board, Grom impacts the board and/or does damage to face, Sylvanas impacts the board a lot of the time (and will always cost 6), Ysera guarantees a card that gives you tempo (compared to normal cost spells that could be sub par or useless) and doesn't die to BGH. Compared to these legendaries, Nefarian just doesn't cut it for competitive play, imo. Still, he is fun, I'm playing with him in my dragon pally deck right now. 

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that Ysera dodges SW:P and SW:D.

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Dropping a turn 9 Nefarian against a mage and killing him with a turn 10 Pyroblast will be the dream.

Karma bruh.

Yes. And getting Mirror Image + Ice Lance while Nefarian gets bgh'ed will be the reality.

Sorry bruh.

You only play against Mage?

Also if he saved BGH for Nefarian, it means my Rag/Alex/Boom doesn't/didn't get BGH'd and that's going to hurt. A LOT.

BGH'able doesn't make a card un-playable. You can have a maximum of 2 BGH in the deck, most decks only run 1, they're not going to have it all the time. And it certainly doesn't mean it'll make all your 7+ Attack minions useless.

He specifically mentioned mage, so I chose mage spells. You can find shitty spells for any class though.

The problem with your second part is that by this reasoning, cards like Gruul would already be great. Yet, they aren't played. Why ? Because firstly, bgh isn't the only removal there is, it's just probably the strongest, and secondly, most removal creates big swings that are hard to recover from unless your card already did something significant. I heavily doubt Nefarian does enough to warrant the risk of such a swing.

Gruul isn't played because he doesn't do anything.

"Because firstly, bgh isn't the only removal there is, it's just probably the strongest, and secondly, most removal creates big swings that are hard to recover from unless your card already did something significant. "

Maybe I didn't get it across good enough, but that was my point.

Imo, Nefarian is in a similar place as Gruul; Though he at least does something immediately, 2 cards that have a decent chance of being completely useless or at best just normal value (unlike dream cards, which most of are underprized by 2 full mana, where the worst you can get is a 4 drop for the price of 3 mana) just don't cut it.

I don't think the card is very good compared to the competition it has, but I wouldn't compare it to Gruul. Gruul dies to BGH and doesn't give you anything. Nefarian dies to BGH while giving you 2 spells so you at least have a chance of getting the board back. 

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I m on fireeeeeeee, I m on fireeeeeeee

I'm a F I R E B A L L (Pitbull is actually right for the first time)

Other great spells you can get: bouncing blades, deadly shot, explosive trap, quick (Kreygasm) shot, almost all mage spells, implosion, unleash(if opponent has a crammed board), hoooly nova, shadow word d/p...

whaaait, can this card be good?

This card IS good. Even the nightmare scenario people describe with the ice lance mirror image is actually decent, in that it's better than 9 mana 8-8 draw two spare parts, and given that toshley sees some use the WORST CASE SCENARIO is still pretty good. Odds are, you're gonna get one good card and one decent card, and along with a very hard to kill body, that makes winning the game oh so much easier. He's a neutral, functionally cheaper Neptulon, and he's gonna be damn good. It's a great extra BGH target in a meta where most run one to kill minions that get instant value anyway, it's a great replenishment card, and it's all around scarily solid. 

It is still bad in most cases competitively. Toshley is a decent body for 6 mana that doesn't get destroyed by BGH. A super late game dragon paladin deck might use this, but we'll see how viable that really is. Ysera is probably still better.

It's a really cool and fun card, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it is very competitive with the 8 attack.