Well, now with Libram Paladin on the edge, we can say FINALLY Blizzard is getting the shit done with Paladin. OK, it's a new archetype, but one according it's class identity, and a pretty good one. Actually I'm pretty excited to try this one.
Maybe we'll see in the future a rework of Paladin like they did with priest, who knows!
funny cause i remember when rogues had no secrets and pally always had secrets in classic. not that im disagreeing with you all. funny how blizz added secrets to rogue not too long ago.
It's funny because if you think from a lore perspective, Rogue should had secrets from moment 0. Rogues have stealth and are specialists in ambushes. It fully makes sense.
I didn't miss your point at all.. mysterious challenger was secret paladin overdose and it fit like a glove without complaints and that's a historical top deck in HS which was never brought into question so this is basically a salt thread over feeling paladin isnt top tier viable at the moment. I also understand that that you feel it doesn't fit thematically, but what's to say that the good guys reveal everything just because they're good? You cant have a 'secret' weapon to protect the good guys from evil? That seems a bit ludicrous. Even the holiest of holiest can have tricks up their sleeve as all is far in love and war, No?
Dude, the only salt is being brought by you. Relax and take it easy, we aren't attacking you by any means. We're just debating. Also, paladin is top tier right now, with mech paladin. I'm actually using this deck depending if I see many hunters, since it's a good matchup for that deck. But I feel like it lacks of flavor. Just play mechs. Nothing more. Where is the "holy warrior" in that?
It's a valid point what you got with the secrets, but I personally don't think it justifies secrets. Since like every "good" class can have the same argument. I'd find more suitable that they have a keyword when a enemy minion attacks a friendly minion, like "Endure", with buffs and things like that. Like a war prayer. I mean, they could be A LOT more creative with Paladin, but it's like they don't pay too much attention on it.
Its funny... No paladin player complained about secrets OR (ironically) a lack of identify when "WHO AM I?! NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!" was top tier for like 6 months.
Do you see paladin players here buddy? I'm not one. The rest?
You're completely missing the point. We are not talking about if it's strong, good or anything. We're talking about secrets not being related at all with what a Paladin should be (based on lore and common sense)-
For me Even Paladin was the deck that best fits Paladin "Class Identity" 'cause you got your army of dudes or minions to buff.Defensive spells like Spikeridged Steed , a reactive spell Equality ,offensive spells like Avenging Wrath or Call to Arms , A mighty weapon that allow you to go into Hand-to-Hand combat to help your army and you got 2 Legendaries that Helps you buff/debuff minions Sunkeeper Tarim or defend you/give you another mighty weapon Tirion Fordring. For me this is Paladin.
I agree. I actually HATED odd paladin, but even was nice. They'd come back to this approach...
For me they messed up with the class when they started to introduce murlocks. This seem so wrong. What have murlock common with paladins? Paladin murock? You can make any class like this.
I mean, we can argue about Shaman with murlocs. A horde class, I don't think it's so bad. But PALADIN. That, just that, it's a valid argument for Paladin not having murlocs. Even if Sir Finley is "good", most of the murlocs are just frenzy.
Actually the real "paladins" or rather said templars were involved with mysticism, forbidden knowledge about the universe and had alot of secrets that still have to be uncovered.
Templars themself were a secret organisation, with alot of secrets in their own ranks and towards society.
In class identity, paladins using secrets, makes alot of sense!
That's not Paladins in WOW though.
There's no "secret" sects in WOW Paladin. By which I mean, they don't share secret, hidden knowledge.
"Paragons of Justice
This is the call of the paladin: to protect the weak, to bring justice to the unjust, and to vanquish evil from the darkest corners of the world. These holy warriors are equipped with plate armor so they can confront the toughest of foes, and the blessing of the Light allows them to heal wounds and, in some cases, even restore life to the dead.
Class Information
Paladins stand directly in front of their enemies, relying on heavy armor and healing in order to survive incoming attacks. Whether with massive shields or crushing two-handed weapons, Paladins are able to keep claws and swords from their weaker fellows – or they use healing magic to ensure that they remain on their feet."
Yeah that sounds like they'll use Secrets. A class that says they'll stand directly in front of their enemies and take incoming damage head-on, sounds like they'll use Secrets.
In reality secret religions were really common; secret sects and heathens. Does that mean Priest should now use Secrets? Why not Warlocks? Witches were seen to have secret societies. Like, we can go on and on about this.
I also hate the "Paladins are White/Red from MTG" argument. This is HS, not MTG. In some aspects they can be similar. Doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same. They should follow the imagery from WOW. And yes, that does include minion swarm. It doesn't mean only minion swarm.
Lol the whole paladin or crusader class in every game that exist is borrowed from the real templars.. the same templars that fought against "evil" protect the "weak", cladded themself in heavy armor, going head on, many times outnumbered against any foe..
Yet the same templars were the most secretive organisation in the world untill this date.
Your whole point is 100% invalid.
Ignoring the fact that he didn't knew about templars, it's a valid point he has. Not just because they were templars, a secret cult, they'd have secrets. Priests also were templars...
Actually the real "paladins" or rather said templars were involved with mysticism, forbidden knowledge about the universe and had alot of secrets that still have to be uncovered.
Templars themself were a secret organisation, with alot of secrets in their own ranks and towards society.
In class identity, paladins using secrets, makes alot of sense!
That's not Paladins in WOW though.
There's no "secret" sects in WOW Paladin. By which I mean, they don't share secret, hidden knowledge.
"Paragons of Justice
This is the call of the paladin: to protect the weak, to bring justice to the unjust, and to vanquish evil from the darkest corners of the world. These holy warriors are equipped with plate armor so they can confront the toughest of foes, and the blessing of the Light allows them to heal wounds and, in some cases, even restore life to the dead.
Class Information
Paladins stand directly in front of their enemies, relying on heavy armor and healing in order to survive incoming attacks. Whether with massive shields or crushing two-handed weapons, Paladins are able to keep claws and swords from their weaker fellows – or they use healing magic to ensure that they remain on their feet."
Yeah that sounds like they'll use Secrets. A class that says they'll stand directly in front of their enemies and take incoming damage head-on, sounds like they'll use Secrets.
In reality secret religions were really common; secret sects and heathens. Does that mean Priest should now use Secrets? Why not Warlocks? Witches were seen to have secret societies. Like, we can go on and on about this.
I also hate the "Paladins are White/Red from MTG" argument. This is HS, not MTG. In some aspects they can be similar. Doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same. They should follow the imagery from WOW. And yes, that does include minion swarm. It doesn't mean only minion swarm.
Now that you mention it, Paladins having Secrets is a kind of odd bit of class identity. Paladins are thematically the most straightforward, least-sneaky, so secrets don't necessarily feel right.
I think the key to Paladin identity is that it's a minion class which can go either wide, or go tall, and switch between wide and tall really easily. They can easily flood with small minions, but can also make those small minions pretty big.
One thing they really need is for a bit of a shift in their basic/classic cards. They really need a "spawn several Silver Hand Recruit" spell or two to be part of their core kit, something like a Stand Against Darkness or Lost in the Jungle. Maybe there's a twist like Muster for Battle or Air Raid, but *something* like one of those should be in the basic/classic Paladin.
Yeah, that's how it is right now... But that's also part of the class identity of Druid, except it's with treants haha.
I feel they'd go with the huge buffs (not only stats), healing, board presence and control, but not excel at it as priest does.
It's hilarious to me that now Paladin has no class identity. A few years ago, Priest had nothing. Paladin healed better, Warlock had better combos, Rogue stole better, Mage had better spells and Paladin also had better buffs.
Paladins are supposed to be holy knights who smite down evil. To do so, they bring "Equality" to all and "Consecrate" wrong-doers. They create an even playing field and fight fair.
Paladins are also all about buffing allies and helping each other out, which is why Blessing of Kings, Might and Wisdom exist. They have a small sub theme of Holy Weapons and Blessed Allies which is where Truesilver Champion, Ashbringer and Paladin Murlocs come into play. Classes adopt additional themes over time, and Paladin just so happened to get Holy Murlocs.
Mechanically, though the reason Paladin has secrets is because there's no clean way to have an effect trigger on your opponent's turn. While Avenge doesn't make sense as a secret, it is thematically sound since your minion(s) have witnessed an ally fall and work to avenge their ally. They each make sense when explained, but it's difficult to surmise when they share the "Secret" keyword.
From that point of view, certain secrets do have sense. Others don't. I agree with most of what you say, but Blizz since A LOT of time is trying to make of Paladin a swiss knife, with his 99 unusable archetypes. I think they've to sit down, take a definition and give Paladin something that sticks to the idea of a holy knight, as you said. Not... Murlocs?
Ye paladin sucks balls.. Nobody knows what he should do better than others. Whats his keyword?
I mean, initially it was divine shield, huge buffs and huge heals for enduring in the game. I was okay with that. But over all the expansions they started to give Pali a lot of mechanics and things from other classes and it became pointless as a class itself.
I'm pretty happy with what's been done for priest. I don't play that class pretty much, but it needed a rework since his class identity was confusing. I think the next class that needs a HUGE rework is Paladin. Paladin, right now, doesn't have ANY sense. It's like a bunch of pieces from other classes. Murlocs from shamans, healing from priest, set 1 health from hunter, secrets. WHY.
My biggest issue is with the secrets. Not with the power level of them, no, with the concept of A PALADIN having SECRETS. It just meaningless. Let me put it this way:
Hunters uses traps = OK with secrets
Mages use enchantments and spell shenanigans = OK with secrets
Rogues are sneaky bastards = OK with secrets
Paladin = ??????
What do you guys think?
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Well, now with Libram Paladin on the edge, we can say FINALLY Blizzard is getting the shit done with Paladin. OK, it's a new archetype, but one according it's class identity, and a pretty good one. Actually I'm pretty excited to try this one.
Maybe we'll see in the future a rework of Paladin like they did with priest, who knows!
It's funny because if you think from a lore perspective, Rogue should had secrets from moment 0. Rogues have stealth and are specialists in ambushes. It fully makes sense.
Dude, the only salt is being brought by you. Relax and take it easy, we aren't attacking you by any means. We're just debating. Also, paladin is top tier right now, with mech paladin. I'm actually using this deck depending if I see many hunters, since it's a good matchup for that deck. But I feel like it lacks of flavor. Just play mechs. Nothing more. Where is the "holy warrior" in that?
It's a valid point what you got with the secrets, but I personally don't think it justifies secrets. Since like every "good" class can have the same argument. I'd find more suitable that they have a keyword when a enemy minion attacks a friendly minion, like "Endure", with buffs and things like that. Like a war prayer. I mean, they could be A LOT more creative with Paladin, but it's like they don't pay too much attention on it.
Do you see paladin players here buddy? I'm not one. The rest?
You're completely missing the point. We are not talking about if it's strong, good or anything. We're talking about secrets not being related at all with what a Paladin should be (based on lore and common sense)-
I agree. I actually HATED odd paladin, but even was nice. They'd come back to this approach...
I mean, we can argue about Shaman with murlocs. A horde class, I don't think it's so bad. But PALADIN. That, just that, it's a valid argument for Paladin not having murlocs. Even if Sir Finley is "good", most of the murlocs are just frenzy.
Ignoring the fact that he didn't knew about templars, it's a valid point he has. Not just because they were templars, a secret cult, they'd have secrets. Priests also were templars...
Actually, there is: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Templar
But as you said, probably other classes could use secrets with that argument. The truth is, they don't know what to do with Paladin.
Yeah, that's how it is right now... But that's also part of the class identity of Druid, except it's with treants haha.
I feel they'd go with the huge buffs (not only stats), healing, board presence and control, but not excel at it as priest does.
From that point of view, certain secrets do have sense. Others don't. I agree with most of what you say, but Blizz since A LOT of time is trying to make of Paladin a swiss knife, with his 99 unusable archetypes. I think they've to sit down, take a definition and give Paladin something that sticks to the idea of a holy knight, as you said. Not... Murlocs?
I mean, initially it was divine shield, huge buffs and huge heals for enduring in the game. I was okay with that. But over all the expansions they started to give Pali a lot of mechanics and things from other classes and it became pointless as a class itself.
I'm pretty happy with what's been done for priest. I don't play that class pretty much, but it needed a rework since his class identity was confusing. I think the next class that needs a HUGE rework is Paladin. Paladin, right now, doesn't have ANY sense. It's like a bunch of pieces from other classes. Murlocs from shamans, healing from priest, set 1 health from hunter, secrets. WHY.
My biggest issue is with the secrets. Not with the power level of them, no, with the concept of A PALADIN having SECRETS. It just meaningless. Let me put it this way:
Hunters uses traps = OK with secrets
Mages use enchantments and spell shenanigans = OK with secrets
Rogues are sneaky bastards = OK with secrets
Paladin = ??????
What do you guys think?