In Magic, mana clump and mana screw (both the inevitable result of RNG) statistically mean that less than half of games are played with both players getting a reasonable resource curve.
I don't believe you've played very much MTG in the last 10+ years if you truly believe that less than half of all MTG games are played with both players getting reasonable mana curve. I play a lot of HS and a lot MTG and while yes, you do get mana flooded/screwed and it happens to opponents as well, it is much below 50% of the games that is determined by that.
You're right, I haven't played MtG in almost 10 years, not since I graduated high school. I mostly played because my friends did back then and I wanted to be socially involved. There was actually a period a few years ago where I picked it back up for a month or so, but only because the guy I was dating was into it. But you can't really blame me for not continuing to play something that caused me more frustration than enjoyment. I'm not going to check back on something every couple of years or so to make sure it's still as unfun for me as I remember.
Anyway, unless the basic rules of the game have drastically changed since then, you still statistically (and from what I understand, this is the figure admitted by the game's developers) get either mana screwed or mana clumped about a third of games. For the two thirds you don't, a third of those your opponent will. That leaves ~4/9 or 44% of games. And if it's not quite that high, boy does it still feel like it and it's definitely not too far off.
Unlike MTG, however, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of games that are determined by a series of coin flips aside from your draw. You have cards like Knife Juggler, Implosion, Flamewaker, and Ragnaros the Firelord, Dr. Boom, Ysera, and even Shaman hero ability having big impact in the current meta and that's just on the lower spectrum of RNG with more defined random numbers (a coin flip up to the roll of a standard die in most cases). Then you also have Unstable Portal, Ram Wrangler, Bane of Doom, Webspinner, Piloted Shredder, and Murloc Knight now that have huge permutations that can just break games on pure dumb lick (i.e. I don't even have the cards that are now the threats IN MY DECK - they just poof into existence based on my luck). There is no card in MTG that I'm aware of that just randomly puts cards into the game that weren't in either deck to start (there are a few that say 'from outside the game' but that's limited to your 15-card sideboard).
Right, and this is how the games are different and cater to different tastes. For me, the sort of "I need Crackle or Imp-Losion to do at least X damage or Knife Juggler or Ragnaros to hit Y target. Here I go!" RNG is acceptably dramatic in the moment and the sort of "Gee, I hope I draw a card that does nothing so I can start using the actual cards in my hand / I hope at some point during this game I draw a card that actually does something." RNG is nothing but frustrating. You clearly feel the reverse, and that's fine, and I hope you have a fun time playing Magic.
Anyway, unless the basic rules of the game have drastically changed since then, you still statistically (and from what I understand, this is the figure admitted by the game's developers) get either mana screwed or mana clumped about a third of games. For the two thirds you don't, a third of those your opponent will. That leaves ~4/9 or 44% of games. And if it's not quite that high, boy does it still feel like it and it's definitely not too far off.
I mean, I think the real question is what is being defined as mana flooded/screwed. If you're talking about games where you need to mulligan to 6 and then are "okay" or games where you miss your 4-drop on curve as you get stuck on 3-lands, *maybe* it's that high of a % - if you're talking about games where you really get hammered like draw 4 lands in a row when you started with 3-4 in your opener, or keep a 2-lander and don't draw another land for the game it's significantly less than 33%.
The thing is there's already so much chance in a card game - that's the point of a card game is that there will be an element of chance - I don't understand the rather *extreme* press by Blizzard to put more chance into a card game with increasingly "random" elements. If they want the game to remain super casual and low key - fine, but they seem like that's exactly the opposite of their current intention. They've always had prizes in the arena, they've started holding prize tournament events for "pro" players, and now they even offer prizes to people for ranked constructed achievement. Everything suggests they are looking for constructed HS to be taken as a more legitimate competitive game, but at the same time games feel more and more like they're being decided by things like "Oops, my turn 2 Unstable Portal gifted me with a turn 4 Archmage Antonidas I win."
I should note I'm NOT complaining; it's part of the game. I just think it's awkward that many constructed games are won or lost based on cards that actually have "random" written in their rule text at the same time Blizz seems intent on pushing the credibility of the game as competitive.
Yes certain amounts of RNG are apart of every card game and can even be fun. Piloted Shredder is an example of fun rng because it's specific to a 2 mana card. You might get millhouse or a doomsayer which most enjoy even if you end up on the worst end of it.
Unstable portal, add random spell cards, jousting, knife jugglers, MCT, Sylvanas are most of the time not fun because they have to much randomness. Yeah maybe getting a twisting nether is fun for you but not the other player. All they need to do to fix those cards is be more specific with the effects instead of 100% RNG. Make it so minion placements matters more and have effects target the left or right most minion and limit other cards to specific mana costs like piloted shredder.
The whole game is being dumbed down with overuse of bad RNG which isn't fun over time.
Let's be absolutely honest here. At it's core Hearhtstone is a -completely- casual game. That means it can viably have a lot RNG for adding a fun factor. Yeah RNG isn't fun for everyone but it helps create a lot of special moments in-game and lots of crazy decks during deck building which people enjoy when they aren't playing to win but rather playing to have fun.
Now I have nothing against playing Hearthstone seriously and/or competitively. I mean if even Poker can be played competitively then any card game be played so. But while doing so players have to accept the RNG that is part of it's core design philosophy.
If that makes you feel it doesn't require much skill or skill isn't as important as luck then perhaps you're right, maybe that is indeed the case. But that doesn't mean Hearthstone has to be a serious game that has little to no RNG and requires pretty good skills cause it's a casual game at it's core. In the end you have to accept that and continue... or if you don't feel like that then you may want to consider taking a break from playing it seriously.
I would agree, but only up to TGT. Usually the "special moments" actually involve some kind of a dream scenario in conjunction with RNG, such as Rivendare+Sneed plays and such. TGT tho introduced a lot of RNG that doesnt make a game any special, and just ruins it. Ram Wrangler summons a King Krush, is it fun? Nope, it's frustrating. Same with Tuskarr Totemist, same, to some extent, with Spellweaver. Those cards can just win you the game by a coin flip, and even with Knife Juggler perfect RNG this didnt happen.
Why add absurd amounts of RNG to the point, where it decides most games? It's simple, Blizzard did this so the game seems easy to newcomers and they spend more money on packs/adventures. If they cared about it, it wouldn't have been infested with cards like Esportal, Skill shredder or Implosion. Seriously, if even Noxious says there is too much RNG in Hearthstone, something is wrong.
^That's a good point. A lot of good games (StarCraft, VS System) die because there is not enough randomness and newer players feel hopeless against better ones and quit playing.
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You're right, I haven't played MtG in almost 10 years, not since I graduated high school. I mostly played because my friends did back then and I wanted to be socially involved. There was actually a period a few years ago where I picked it back up for a month or so, but only because the guy I was dating was into it. But you can't really blame me for not continuing to play something that caused me more frustration than enjoyment. I'm not going to check back on something every couple of years or so to make sure it's still as unfun for me as I remember.
Anyway, unless the basic rules of the game have drastically changed since then, you still statistically (and from what I understand, this is the figure admitted by the game's developers) get either mana screwed or mana clumped about a third of games. For the two thirds you don't, a third of those your opponent will. That leaves ~4/9 or 44% of games. And if it's not quite that high, boy does it still feel like it and it's definitely not too far off.
Right, and this is how the games are different and cater to different tastes. For me, the sort of "I need Crackle or Imp-Losion to do at least X damage or Knife Juggler or Ragnaros to hit Y target. Here I go!" RNG is acceptably dramatic in the moment and the sort of "Gee, I hope I draw a card that does nothing so I can start using the actual cards in my hand / I hope at some point during this game I draw a card that actually does something." RNG is nothing but frustrating. You clearly feel the reverse, and that's fine, and I hope you have a fun time playing Magic.
Poker is all about RNG yet somehow the same people win all the time. Tells me something...
hello
The thing is there's already so much chance in a card game - that's the point of a card game is that there will be an element of chance - I don't understand the rather *extreme* press by Blizzard to put more chance into a card game with increasingly "random" elements. If they want the game to remain super casual and low key - fine, but they seem like that's exactly the opposite of their current intention. They've always had prizes in the arena, they've started holding prize tournament events for "pro" players, and now they even offer prizes to people for ranked constructed achievement. Everything suggests they are looking for constructed HS to be taken as a more legitimate competitive game, but at the same time games feel more and more like they're being decided by things like "Oops, my turn 2 Unstable Portal gifted me with a turn 4 Archmage Antonidas I win."
Balancing busted cards version 1.0.
Yes certain amounts of RNG are apart of every card game and can even be fun. Piloted Shredder is an example of fun rng because it's specific to a 2 mana card. You might get millhouse or a doomsayer which most enjoy even if you end up on the worst end of it.
Unstable portal, add random spell cards, jousting, knife jugglers, MCT, Sylvanas are most of the time not fun because they have to much randomness. Yeah maybe getting a twisting nether is fun for you but not the other player. All they need to do to fix those cards is be more specific with the effects instead of 100% RNG. Make it so minion placements matters more and have effects target the left or right most minion and limit other cards to specific mana costs like piloted shredder.
The whole game is being dumbed down with overuse of bad RNG which isn't fun over time.
I would agree, but only up to TGT. Usually the "special moments" actually involve some kind of a dream scenario in conjunction with RNG, such as Rivendare+Sneed plays and such. TGT tho introduced a lot of RNG that doesnt make a game any special, and just ruins it. Ram Wrangler summons a King Krush, is it fun? Nope, it's frustrating. Same with Tuskarr Totemist, same, to some extent, with Spellweaver. Those cards can just win you the game by a coin flip, and even with Knife Juggler perfect RNG this didnt happen.
Why add absurd amounts of RNG to the point, where it decides most games? It's simple, Blizzard did this so the game seems easy to newcomers and they spend more money on packs/adventures. If they cared about it, it wouldn't have been infested with cards like Esportal, Skill shredder or Implosion. Seriously, if even Noxious says there is too much RNG in Hearthstone, something is wrong.
Facefull Void - best Void!
^That's a good point. A lot of good games (StarCraft, VS System) die because there is not enough randomness and newer players feel hopeless against better ones and quit playing.