Just wanted to point out that he cheated in magic not hs. Mistakes made in the past do not nullify good deeds done in the present. I'm pretty sure everyone has cheated at something or other in life. But does 1 incident make u a cheater on incapable of doing good deeds. Not defending reynad just saying theres more than 1 way to view some thing like this.
I agree he did the right thing choosing to concede in order to follow the rules... that being said there wouldn't have been anything wrong with him playing through since the judges were willing to allow it. If a system allows "cheating" in any way then the system encourages you to cheat. If you don't then you're effectively handicapping yourself in a way that more unscrupulous individuals are not, thus putting yourself at a disadvantage. I respect him for playing at a disadvantage based on principles (and hope I would too) but you're not doing yourself any favors, especially when other people might not do the same for you.
And lets get "karmic justice" off the table as a justification. Things happen or they don't, there isn't really a "just" or "unjust" outcome... let alone one that's derived from previous actions. What's just or unjust, good or bad, is all a matter of perspective to the individual.
There's a lion and a zebra, you get to decide how their encounter unfolds. Do you let the lion eat the zebra? This is "good" for the lion and "bad" for the zebra. Do you let the zebra escape and the lion go hungry? This is "good" for the zebra and "bad" for the lion. Neither option is "good" or "bad", "just" or "unjust"... the event either happens or it doesn't, quite independent of something as abstract or subjective as "good karma" and "bad karma".
Hopefully this post doesn't sound as pompous as I fear it might.
Just wanted to point out that he cheated in magic not hs. Mistakes made in the past do not nullify good deeds done in the present. I'm pretty sure everyone has cheated at something or other in life. But does 1 incident make u a cheater on incapable of doing good deeds. Not defending reynad just saying theres more than 1 way to view some thing like this.
So in regards to this, if it had come out later that Reynad was playing different lists than he submitted, there would be plenty of bad publicity. It's not just a "selfless" decision on his part.
This whole issue can be avoided by tournament organisers recording the games, then putting them out *after* they have finished rather than streaming them live...
Yeah, I cannot even comprehend why you would stream a tournament on a 10-minute delay. If you've already accepted that it's not going to be live, why on earth would you not delay it a little more to be 100% sure no cheating could occur? Do you think the audience is going to get enraged at a half hour delay but say "oh that's cool" at 10 minutes??
I agree he did the right thing choosing to concede in order to follow the rules... that being said there wouldn't have been anything wrong with him playing through since the judges were willing to allow it. If a system allows "cheating" in any way then the system encourages you to cheat. If you don't then you're effectively handicapping yourself in a way that more unscrupulous individuals are not, thus putting yourself at a disadvantage. I respect him for playing at a disadvantage based on principles (and hope I would too) but you're not doing yourself any favors, especially when other people might not do the same for you.
And lets get "karmic justice" off the table as a justification. Things happen or they don't, there isn't really a "just" or "unjust" outcome... let alone one that's derived from previous actions. What's just or unjust, good or bad, is all a matter of perspective to the individual.
There's a lion and a zebra, you get to decide how their encounter unfolds. Do you let the lion eat the zebra? This is "good" for the lion and "bad" for the zebra. Do you let the zebra escape and the lion go hungry? This is "good" for the zebra and "bad" for the lion. Neither option is "good" or "bad", "just" or "unjust"... the event either happens or it doesn't, quite independent of something as abstract or subjective as "good karma" and "bad karma".
Hopefully this post doesn't sound as pompous as I fear it might.
1. It was a 1 card difference not a exploit in the system fact is the judges would have missed it. He came to us to report the mistake. Because of this though the staff will be tracking all deck builds looking for tech'd sideboards.
2. If things happen or they dont, then how is it some players are able to have a higher win % then others. If you believe in it or not does not negate or prove the existence of Karma. Now having an understanding of karma and looking at the series of events, its hard not to draw that analogy.
With any game where money is up for grabs there is going to be an even greater temptation to gain a strategic advantage any way possible. Until there are comprehensive tournament rules, regulations, and penalties to hold Hearthstone players accountable for we will continue to run into questionable situations where someone may have gained tactical knowledge or blatantly cheated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"To build or destroy...only you decide which joy." - Last Crack
Need more reasons why Reynad is, in my opinion, the greatest competitive player in this community?
Despite the fact he created Hearthstone and the universe.
He created Kolento, and there was light! :D
Seriously though, what Hosty did was just plain wrong. I never liked his persona anyway, heard stories about him being snobbish toward opponents in tourn's in the past. But that's beside the point. We're not judging on personality, rather their sportsmanship, respect, integrity.
I can't see him being invited to many, if any, big tournaments in the near future.
As for Reynad and the MTG thing, different time, game and he still denies it, so what do we really know?
1. It was a 1 card difference not a exploit in the system fact is the judges would have missed it. He came to us to report the mistake. Because of this though the staff will be tracking all deck builds looking for tech'd sideboards.
2. If things happen or they dont, then how is it some players are able to have a higher win % then others. If you believe in it or not does not negate or prove the existence of Karma. Now having an understanding of karma and looking at the series of events, its hard not to draw that analogy.
3. not to pompous.
1.) I totally think he did the right thing. My point was that it's unfortunate that choosing to do the right thing usually puts you at a disadvantage. Not putting that particular moment on blast as cheating, I guess I just thought it tied in to a general theme of competitive ethics in that if you CAN get away with something it usually benefits you to do so (which is again, unfortunate).
2.) I think that some people have higher win percentages through a combination of skill, RNG and opportunity. You can increase or decrease the odds of certain outcomes happening but they're still just odds open to an incalculable number of variables that can cause an incalculable number of outcomes. I do have a problem of speaking in absolutes (which is probably why I fear I can sound more pompous than I intend) despite the fact that I tend to be very ambiguous about things. My opinion is that karma doesn't exist at a capacity to actively effect events as they unfold in the world because I see about as much reason for karma to exist (he did the right thing and he ended up winning despite his handicap, karma is real!) as I do for it not to exist (too many bad things happen to good people in such an arbitrary way, where are you karma?) BUT I completely acknowledge that I am unable to prove or disprove it on either end and I shouldn't attempt to invalidate you on something that's clearly a matter of opinion and completely subjective. I do see the correlation between "good karma" and that particular event, I suppose it's just that if I can't prove something then I tend to err on the side of caution and remain skeptical.
Competitive is a different kettle of fish, but in the past I've stream sniped when I've recognized a name on non-legend ranked. Mostly for educational purposes, to listen why a certain play might have been bad, etc. It pretty much is cheating and I kinda felt dirty after doing it. I think I always got wrecked though so it definitely wasn't to my advantage.
There is a defense to be made here though, if for example in MtG your opponent chooses to play with their hand revealed to you then there's nothing to stop them from playing like that - that's their choice.
The situation described here is what I would consider an "Outside Assistance" scenario, and since we're talking about M:tg the penalty would be a match loss.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"To build or destroy...only you decide which joy." - Last Crack
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Just wanted to point out that he cheated in magic not hs. Mistakes made in the past do not nullify good deeds done in the present. I'm pretty sure everyone has cheated at something or other in life. But does 1 incident make u a cheater on incapable of doing good deeds. Not defending reynad just saying theres more than 1 way to view some thing like this.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely. Legend Seasons: 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17
Current deck: Not playing much anymore
Highest rank: legend rank 9 Highest finish: legend rank 103 Infinite Arena Player
I agree he did the right thing choosing to concede in order to follow the rules... that being said there wouldn't have been anything wrong with him playing through since the judges were willing to allow it. If a system allows "cheating" in any way then the system encourages you to cheat. If you don't then you're effectively handicapping yourself in a way that more unscrupulous individuals are not, thus putting yourself at a disadvantage. I respect him for playing at a disadvantage based on principles (and hope I would too) but you're not doing yourself any favors, especially when other people might not do the same for you.
And lets get "karmic justice" off the table as a justification. Things happen or they don't, there isn't really a "just" or "unjust" outcome... let alone one that's derived from previous actions. What's just or unjust, good or bad, is all a matter of perspective to the individual.
There's a lion and a zebra, you get to decide how their encounter unfolds. Do you let the lion eat the zebra? This is "good" for the lion and "bad" for the zebra. Do you let the zebra escape and the lion go hungry? This is "good" for the zebra and "bad" for the lion. Neither option is "good" or "bad", "just" or "unjust"... the event either happens or it doesn't, quite independent of something as abstract or subjective as "good karma" and "bad karma".
Hopefully this post doesn't sound as pompous as I fear it might.
So in regards to this, if it had come out later that Reynad was playing different lists than he submitted, there would be plenty of bad publicity. It's not just a "selfless" decision on his part.
If 10 minutes doesn't do it, make it a 15 or 20 minutes delay. Most of games will be over by 15-20 minutes mark, even one player is Ropecoach.
Meta changes the moment you switch your deck.
Yeah, I cannot even comprehend why you would stream a tournament on a 10-minute delay. If you've already accepted that it's not going to be live, why on earth would you not delay it a little more to be 100% sure no cheating could occur? Do you think the audience is going to get enraged at a half hour delay but say "oh that's cool" at 10 minutes??
1. It was a 1 card difference not a exploit in the system fact is the judges would have missed it. He came to us to report the mistake. Because of this though the staff will be tracking all deck builds looking for tech'd sideboards.
2. If things happen or they dont, then how is it some players are able to have a higher win % then others. If you believe in it or not does not negate or prove the existence of Karma. Now having an understanding of karma and looking at the series of events, its hard not to draw that analogy.
3. not to pompous.
With any game where money is up for grabs there is going to be an even greater temptation to gain a strategic advantage any way possible. Until there are comprehensive tournament rules, regulations, and penalties to hold Hearthstone players accountable for we will continue to run into questionable situations where someone may have gained tactical knowledge or blatantly cheated.
"To build or destroy...only you decide which joy." - Last Crack
He created Kolento, and there was light! :D
Seriously though, what Hosty did was just plain wrong. I never liked his persona anyway, heard stories about him being snobbish toward opponents in tourn's in the past. But that's beside the point. We're not judging on personality, rather their sportsmanship, respect, integrity.
I can't see him being invited to many, if any, big tournaments in the near future.
As for Reynad and the MTG thing, different time, game and he still denies it, so what do we really know?
1.) I totally think he did the right thing. My point was that it's unfortunate that choosing to do the right thing usually puts you at a disadvantage. Not putting that particular moment on blast as cheating, I guess I just thought it tied in to a general theme of competitive ethics in that if you CAN get away with something it usually benefits you to do so (which is again, unfortunate).
2.) I think that some people have higher win percentages through a combination of skill, RNG and opportunity. You can increase or decrease the odds of certain outcomes happening but they're still just odds open to an incalculable number of variables that can cause an incalculable number of outcomes. I do have a problem of speaking in absolutes (which is probably why I fear I can sound more pompous than I intend) despite the fact that I tend to be very ambiguous about things. My opinion is that karma doesn't exist at a capacity to actively effect events as they unfold in the world because I see about as much reason for karma to exist (he did the right thing and he ended up winning despite his handicap, karma is real!) as I do for it not to exist (too many bad things happen to good people in such an arbitrary way, where are you karma?) BUT I completely acknowledge that I am unable to prove or disprove it on either end and I shouldn't attempt to invalidate you on something that's clearly a matter of opinion and completely subjective. I do see the correlation between "good karma" and that particular event, I suppose it's just that if I can't prove something then I tend to err on the side of caution and remain skeptical.
3. +1 for me (fist pump)
Competitive is a different kettle of fish, but in the past I've stream sniped when I've recognized a name on non-legend ranked. Mostly for educational purposes, to listen why a certain play might have been bad, etc. It pretty much is cheating and I kinda felt dirty after doing it. I think I always got wrecked though so it definitely wasn't to my advantage.
There is a defense to be made here though, if for example in MtG your opponent chooses to play with their hand revealed to you then there's nothing to stop them from playing like that - that's their choice.
The situation described here is what I would consider an "Outside Assistance" scenario, and since we're talking about M:tg the penalty would be a match loss.
"To build or destroy...only you decide which joy." - Last Crack