Hearthpwn

Quote from Ihmo»

So? Like I said, if nothing else is done, the opponent's board will only get bigger. Like I said in another thread, complaining about freezing effects when Pyro/Fireball get nerfed is the same as complaining about Mind Control: Being mad because you can't play the game the way you want. Pure rant.

And about Ice Block, I also think it deserves a nerf, preferably through giving other classes a way to remove secrets.

I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting you are downplaying the effect of AoE freezing when you state it only buys the mage a turn. You make it seem as if freeze will only buy the mage one turn, when in fact it can buy them up to 6.

Quote from Heaviest_Flow »

Quote from Ihmo»

So? Like I said, if nothing else is done, the opponent's board will only get bigger. Like I said in another thread, complaining about freezing effects when Pyro/Fireball get nerfed is the same as complaining about Mind Control: Being mad because you can't play the game the way you want. Pure rant.

And about Ice Block, I also think it deserves a nerf, preferably through giving other classes a way to remove secrets.

I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting you are downplaying the effect of AoE freezing when you state it only buys the mage a turn. You make it seem as if freeze will only buy the mage one turn, when in fact it can buy them up to 6.

6 turns, at the cost of 6 cards. Why is that so bad, considering that Pyroblast and Fireball get nerfed? I still don't understand what's so wrong about that.

Quote from Ihmo»

6 turns, at the cost of 6 cards. Why is that so bad, considering that Pyroblast and Fireball get nerfed? I still don't understand what's so wrong about that.

It's not bad, it's just a very powerful way to delay the game. I never said anything about nerfing. I just felt you were making the AoE freeze abilities seem much less powerful than they are.

Quote from Heaviest_Flow »

Quote from Ihmo»

6 turns, at the cost of 6 cards. Why is that so bad, considering that Pyroblast and Fireball get nerfed? I still don't understand what's so wrong about that.

It's not bad, it's just a very powerful way to delay the game. I never said anything about nerfing. I just felt you were making the AoE freeze abilities seem much less powerful than they are.

Because they ARE much less powerful than you think. The sheer overpowerness of Frost Nova, for example, comes from the fact that it can be played right along with a Pyroblast. And that, I must admit, is indeed kinda cheap.

   Mages will not be nerfed because they are OP. They will be nerfed because being frozen every turn isn't fun gameplay, i.e. OTK Hunter deck.

Multiple decks at high ranks counter mages... Paladins, Druids especially. I'm rank 2 and I see 1 mage every 10 games or so.

Quote from Ihmo»

Because they ARE much less powerful than you think. The sheer overpowerness of Frost Nova, for example, comes from the fact that it can be played right along with a Pyroblast. And that, I must admit, is indeed kinda cheap.

My statement had nothing to do with my own thoughts on AoE freezing. It was in reference to your statement:

Quote from Ihmo»

Third, freezing does not shut down creature play completely. It only buys you a turn, but your opponent's board will keep getting bigger if you don't do something else.

The amount of AoE freeze available makes the freezing ability that mages posses much more powerful than the ability to buy you a single turn.

Quote from Morlu »

   Mages will not be nerfed because they are OP. They will be nerfed because being frozen every turn isn't fun gameplay, i.e. OTK Hunter deck.

Multiple decks at high ranks counter mages... Paladins, Druids especially. I'm rank 2 and I see 1 mage every 10 games or so.

Sure, Pyroblast/Fireball are a bit over the top right now, but after nerfing those, it's nowhere like Hunter OTK.
Also. whatever does "fun gameplay" means? I find aggro gameplay boring, and control through freezing is the most fun I've ever had. So that's just your opinion.

Now wait a minute. Am I the ONLY freaking person in this forum, in this game, who supports the idea of having more than one way to play it? Am I the only one who thinks the game shouldn't be 100% minion-centric? o.o'

Quote from Ihmo »

Quote from Morlu »

   Mages will not be nerfed because they are OP. They will be nerfed because being frozen every turn isn't fun gameplay, i.e. OTK Hunter deck.

Multiple decks at high ranks counter mages... Paladins, Druids especially. I'm rank 2 and I see 1 mage every 10 games or so.

Sure, Pyroblast/Fireball are a bit over the top right now, but after nerfing those, it's nowhere like Hunter OTK.
Also. whatever does "fun gameplay" means? I find aggro gameplay boring, and control through freezing is the most fun I've ever had. So that's just your opinion.

Now wait a minute. Am I the ONLY freaking person in this forum, in this game, who supports the idea of having more than one way to play it? Am I the only one who thinks the game shouldn't be 100% minion-centric? o.o'

He's refering to playing against it, and it is very much no fun to get get frozen 5 turns in row with various other removal added in (pyro, flame, ect) then get bomb'd by spells/giants, only to hit iceblock twice then lose. 

Quote from Stormz13 »

Quote from Ihmo »

Quote from Morlu »

   Mages will not be nerfed because they are OP. They will be nerfed because being frozen every turn isn't fun gameplay, i.e. OTK Hunter deck.

Multiple decks at high ranks counter mages... Paladins, Druids especially. I'm rank 2 and I see 1 mage every 10 games or so.

Sure, Pyroblast/Fireball are a bit over the top right now, but after nerfing those, it's nowhere like Hunter OTK.
Also. whatever does "fun gameplay" means? I find aggro gameplay boring, and control through freezing is the most fun I've ever had. So that's just your opinion.

Now wait a minute. Am I the ONLY freaking person in this forum, in this game, who supports the idea of having more than one way to play it? Am I the only one who thinks the game shouldn't be 100% minion-centric? o.o'

He's refering to playing against it, and it is very much no fun to get get frozen 5 turns in row with various other removal added in (pyro, flame, ect) then get bomb'd by spells/giants, only to hit iceblock twice then lose. 

Yes. I'll admit, people should be able to remove Ice Block instead of having no choice but to activate it. Pyroblast and Fireball could be nerfed. Giants, well, they're not nerf material, you can deal with them... But ok, nerf Ice Block/Pyroblast/Fireball. Will freeze be so powerful after all that's done? I don't think so.

Quote from Ihmo »

I find aggro gameplay boring, and control through freezing is the most fun I've ever had. So that's just your opinion.

You should try playing against it.

(before you say it's ok if you build the deck for it, you should try every other matchup with the deck you built especially vs mages)

Mages are not necessarily OP, they're just boring as fuck to play against and frustrating to lose to.

I have played against it, lots of times. However, I focus on a control-esque approach with Priest and Warlock, so freezes aren't much of a problem against any other decks that I play.

Freezing is fine, it's a different approach to the game and it's by no means boring. It's actually necessary to help control decks get to the endgame. Like Ancient Watcher with taunt and Circle of Healing board clear help Priests. Low mana cost rush decks have a real tough time against it, and that's how it IS supposed to be. Want to keep playing your dumb warlock aggros? Fine, I'll keep freezing you every single time. Want to have an easier time against freezes? Play stronger creatures. You don't really need to go that far, Yetis are right there. It's that simple.

so other then the damage portion, how exactly does larger creatures stop chain freeze again....

Quote from Stormz13 »

so other then the damage portion, how exactly does larger creatures stop chain freeze again....

They don't. They just don't die to AoE. You need heal to beat mages atm.

Quote from Hearthsam »

Quote from Ihmo »

Want to keep playing your dumb warlock aggros? Fine, I'll keep freezing you every single time. Want to have an easier time against freezes? Play stronger creatures. You don't really need to go that far, Yetis are right there. It's that simple.

Flamestrike, while annoying to play around, is not the issue here. Freezing affects all minions equally regardless of the their health pool. As a Rogue player I feel like the Mage matchup is 8-2+ in their favour right now -- if they play the correct cards it's impossible for them to lose.

Take a game I've had just now: Mage uses mana wyrm -> coin -> mirror image, of course one of the strongest coin starts in the game and it takes me multiple turns to break through. By turn 4 I've managed to break through that nonsense, with me sitting on a 4/3 golem and 4/4 DID, and now I just start getting freeze locked turn after turn. I'm attempting to keep my board as modest as I can so flamestrike doesn't devastate me too much and get as much damage on her as I can on the rare turn my board isn't frozen. She played a secret in the middle of the game which was deducted to be ice block. Turn 9 swings around and she's below 10 health, so a free molten giant is plopped down, along with Alextrasza setting me to 15. I  have so much removal in my hand due to the mage playing next to no minions, so I'm able to deal with both of them (molten with backstab+eviscerate with Drake in play, Alextrasza with assassinate), while I break the ice block. Next turn I simply get fireball+fireball+frostbolted to death. There's no way I could have played the game better and no way I could have defeated the mage before it happened.

Unless you're Druid/Paladin and have access to an immediate big heal after Alexstrasza lands, you lose, it's really quite sad. There's no way of preventing it either -- Hunter OTK did not have spells which stalled the board for turn upon turn in a row for him to get his win condition. Hunter OTK could be raced just fine, and most importantly there was a common way of defending against it through usage of taunt.

I agree that Mage's finishers are way too good. I agree that Ice Block should be removed by all classes, the way it is now it's basically a free Time Walk for Mages. I agree that, while Mages can be good at freezing and control, they should NOT be that good at Aggro like they are right now.

See, I agree that Mages deserve a nerf. But not on its freezing capabilites, and everytime you complain about the freeze itself (which is NOT the problem here,I've already stated what are the real issues), it's just "yada yada yada I wanna play the minion game but Mages just won't let me do it".

Seems like Blizzard doesn't agree with freeze being fun at all (thanks god, btw).

Anyway, I'd have gone for tweaking (nerf) Ice Block instead of nerfing every freezing AoE spell, but seems they wanna go that way. I'd just nerf Frost Nova and [hypothetical nerf] Ice Block, and leave CoC and Blizzard as they are now (not sure about Blizzard, but CoC as 4 mana feels quite meh). Let's see what happens.

Higher manacost was definately the wrong way to balance freeze.
4 mana for CoC, wtf? 3 mana for a spell that doesnt do any damage as well?

6 mana on Blizzard fucks the whole play. Ppl who dont play mage will still complain, but mages will know how sick that nerf is.
There is no real good play on turn 5 now. Turn 6 is dominated by Argent Commander and you cant Blizz+ping anymore on turn 7.

Quote from UserNotFound »

Higher manacost was definately the wrong way to balance freeze.
4 mana for CoC, wtf? 3 mana for a spell that doesnt do any damage as well?

6 mana on Blizzard fucks the whole play. Ppl who dont play mage will still complain, but mages will know how sick that nerf is.
There is no real good play on turn 5 now. Turn 6 is dominated by Argent Commander and you cant Blizz+ping anymore on turn 7.

Give this man your up-votes :)
Though in all honesty CoC nerf is justfied, nova nerf won't be noticed but the Blizzard nerf is a kick in the balls that Mages will feel.
I don't think it will kill Mage control, but will change the early game considerably because there will a new reliance on minions required to live to Turn 9.

Pyro to 9 mana, remove or rework iceblock and maybe give frost bolt 2 dmg and freeze or 3 dmg no freeze. I have a decent chance to win against any other classes but as soon as I face a mage I know I've lost! Don't get me wrong, I've tried out freeze deck myself but I can't stand the playstyle.The problem is, my druid, warlock, paladin and priest deck don't stand a chance against mages so it feels like I'm forced to play that stupid-ass class.