Only if you have "unlimited time". If time is not a factor, than any deck that can achieve a consistent +51% win rate over time will reach legend. This is why bots work - it's just a average over a sufficient spread of games. But for the average player, time is a factor. With this being the case, yes, some amount of skill is needed to increase that win rate to reach legend in a realistic time-frame.
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"Speculation is foolish when the tools of certainty are available." —Cinna, Vedalken Consul
Looking at your last few posts, it seems pretty likely that you have recently lost some stressful games (perhaps you almost reached legend, but then lost a few games in a row) and have just ragequit.
If a Legacy open was only one game played per match with no sideboard, only then could you compare hearthstone skill vs. MTG skill. There is a huge payoff to hearthstone RNG because it's trying to do things you couldn't do with a physical card game. The only reason MTG feels like its more skillful is because MTG allows you to respond to threats on your opponents turn, this doesn't make us more skillful. The skill comes from making the correct plays and planning how your opponent will respond, it seems to me that we do the same in hearthstone.
Arena and MTG draft are also the same fish, again each has its own pros and cons but at the end of the day its practically the same. If ya don't agree I truely feel ya need to play more of both.
So quit trying to make one better than the other and just enjoy what each has to offer. Hearthstone is a new born baby with TONS of potential to grow and change.
The stack. Enough said.
I've played MTG for years and Hearthstone since a couple of weeks before Naxx dropped. I think I've plenty of both. In fact, I've placed in a few opens. 60 card decks means making more choices for cards. More space to fine-tune against a metagame. What cards change in HS decks? 4-6 MAYBE. In HS? You can have 10-15 flex slots sometimes. Being able to sideboard (and indeed, CRAFT your sideboard) is another skill-based aspect of the game HS does not have. There are no hosers you need to plan for in HS. There's far less variety in decks, so the metagame is easier to learn and predict, and even LESS viable cards for each deck in a deck HALF the size.
If skill is defined as applied knowledge, then HS has skill. A very low skill ceiling compared to something like MTG. So low in fact that HS only seems skill-BASED if it's your first card game. In HS you'll never have board states like the clusterfuck that is Humility. You'll never have interactions like Sensei's Divining Top + Abrupt Decay + Misdirection. And a skillful MTG player knows how to resolve that stack and interpret those board states. The most skillful thing you can do in HS is memorize probabilities and know niche interactions like Equality'ing your own damaged Ragnaros Lightlord to guarantee you heal face and other things like that. There's applied knowledge but not much and it's not necessary for the vast majority of games. Much less to know, much less complex, much less knowledge needed, much less skill.
Seeing as legend is the apex of Hearthstone, if we follow the logic of the people who make this claim, we can make certain inferences about the rest of the ladder. If legend is a no skill grind, then what is the rest of the hearthstone? Absolute trash?
legend is a skill grind. the people saying the opposite are ppl who can't do it, but go "i could totally do it if i had the time".
Thijs got legend in 188 GAMES (not wins, Games) in May (source=blizzard info revealed at DH). Don't come and tell me 188 games take more than 1 month xd
so i've been legend multiple times and i dont believe its a skill grind.
for the most parts no it doesn't require more skills than the guy that just reached rank 10 or 5 but getting to legend imo just require a lot of free time and an average player plays
i am 100% sure you know people, even a lot, who play the decks thzy "pros" use, follow the mulligan guide. Yet can't go over rank 11, or 9 or 7. Because they lack the skills to pilot the deck properly, they take bad decisions but dont realize it. Got another explanation? putting time over and over, if you take bad decisions without realizing they are bad, you will run in circle.
I think there's an easy test. Just pit yourself against a pro. I don't mean by playing against them, as RNG can influence who wins, but to watch a stream and predict their series of moves. Whenever the move you and the pro make differ, then at least 1 of you have to be making a suboptimal move. If all your moves agree after 30 games, then the game's skill cap is very low.
P.S. Don't give me that "2 moves are equally good" bullcrap, since in a game with RNG, this is almost never the case. One move is almost certainly going to give you a higher win rate than the other, even if it is only by 0.01%.
^This is pretty much all that needs to be said. Every player would make the exact same moves across thousands of games if there was a low skill cap. The fact that everybody makes misplays is the only evidence necessary to prove that nobody has even hit the skill cap (let alone suboptimal plays). A low skill cap implies a skill that many can easily perform perfectly time and time again, such as walking. In HS, many perform well, nobody performs perfectly.
The bottom line is that the RNG will make the winner of smaller samples of games less predictable, but the larger the sample size, the greater the skill will shine through. It's the same with any sport or game, the RNG just has a stronger presence in card games.
As for MTG, I've played it enough to say that it suffers the same RNG problems in the short term, but I don't doubt that it requires more to be truly knowledgeable and skilled at the game than HS.
As I said in my previous post, what people lack to understand is that you don't have to argue that it's ONLY skill, or ONLY luck, or ONLY time. I'm positive you can actually understand that there are multiple factors involved, not just one. However, people here seem to disagree on how much skills can weigh on the game's results, in the long run. And I guess it's a matter of opinion, but if I sum up I'd say that skills sure do matter and help getting legend faster, but in general the game is not as skill-based as other games like MTG.
If you want to boil it down to a simple forumla, we can put it this way:
LEGEND RANK = Winrate x Time spent. Simple as that. Where "Winrate" is influenced by: skill, how deep your card collection is, how strong your deck is, how you can adapt to the meta... And of course the higher your average winrate (due to better plays, better reads, stronger deck,...), the less time you need to spend to reach Legend rank. That simple formula pretty much sums up this whole thread.
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Just Got Legend First Time im So Excited!! i agree it is a grind lots of ups and Down But That Feeling of Finally getting it is so Great!!!
"Speculation is foolish when the tools of certainty are available." —Cinna, Vedalken Consul
I've played MTG for years and Hearthstone since a couple of weeks before Naxx dropped. I think I've plenty of both. In fact, I've placed in a few opens. 60 card decks means making more choices for cards. More space to fine-tune against a metagame. What cards change in HS decks? 4-6 MAYBE. In HS? You can have 10-15 flex slots sometimes. Being able to sideboard (and indeed, CRAFT your sideboard) is another skill-based aspect of the game HS does not have. There are no hosers you need to plan for in HS. There's far less variety in decks, so the metagame is easier to learn and predict, and even LESS viable cards for each deck in a deck HALF the size.
If skill is defined as applied knowledge, then HS has skill. A very low skill ceiling compared to something like MTG. So low in fact that HS only seems skill-BASED if it's your first card game. In HS you'll never have board states like the clusterfuck that is Humility. You'll never have interactions like Sensei's Divining Top + Abrupt Decay + Misdirection. And a skillful MTG player knows how to resolve that stack and interpret those board states. The most skillful thing you can do in HS is memorize probabilities and know niche interactions like Equality'ing your own damaged Ragnaros Lightlord to guarantee you heal face and other things like that. There's applied knowledge but not much and it's not necessary for the vast majority of games. Much less to know, much less complex, much less knowledge needed, much less skill.
PSN: RoStGy
what now?
for the most parts no it doesn't require more skills than the guy that just reached rank 10 or 5 but getting to legend imo just require a lot of free time and an average player plays
then you underestimate yourself
i am 100% sure you know people, even a lot, who play the decks thzy "pros" use, follow the mulligan guide. Yet can't go over rank 11, or 9 or 7. Because they lack the skills to pilot the deck properly, they take bad decisions but dont realize it. Got another explanation? putting time over and over, if you take bad decisions without realizing they are bad, you will run in circle.
As I said in my previous post, what people lack to understand is that you don't have to argue that it's ONLY skill, or ONLY luck, or ONLY time. I'm positive you can actually understand that there are multiple factors involved, not just one. However, people here seem to disagree on how much skills can weigh on the game's results, in the long run. And I guess it's a matter of opinion, but if I sum up I'd say that skills sure do matter and help getting legend faster, but in general the game is not as skill-based as other games like MTG.
If you want to boil it down to a simple forumla, we can put it this way:
LEGEND RANK = Winrate x Time spent. Simple as that.
Where "Winrate" is influenced by: skill, how deep your card collection is, how strong your deck is, how you can adapt to the meta...
And of course the higher your average winrate (due to better plays, better reads, stronger deck,...), the less time you need to spend to reach Legend rank.
That simple formula pretty much sums up this whole thread.