3) Final Poll format. Since there are only four of you now, Murloc and I had been planning on making it a single-choice poll where the results are hidden until the end, as opposed to the usual poll format of allowing multiple-choices and allowing current results to be viewed at any time, but we want to make sure this is agreeable. Somewhere in the middle also works, like a multiple-choice poll where the results are hidden until the end. I'd just like to make sure we have your input, if you have any thoughts or preferences.
This is awesome and I support it with everything I got.
3) Final Poll format. Since there are only four of you now, Murloc and I had been planning on making it a single-choice poll where the results are hidden until the end, as opposed to the usual poll format of allowing multiple-choices and allowing current results to be viewed at any time, but we want to make sure this is agreeable. Somewhere in the middle also works, like a multiple-choice poll where the results are hidden until the end. I'd just like to make sure we have your input, if you have any thoughts or preferences.
This is awesome and I support it with everything I got.
I like the single choice.
With the hidden thing, I don't really care because I don't think I'll win, but for the people who are really trying this might kill them from the intensity xD
Cannon Fodder, really? XD. I really like all the cards. You can plan to get a taunt to survive, or get a big finisher. I think my favourite is Aberration though since you spend 3 spells to get it and he replaces them. Grimkor himself can be a 4/4 since he's a conditional silverhand knight baseline that's legendary. The wording for Thyrm is a bit off since there's nothing exactly like it in game. How about "Charge. Also damages all other enemies."
Here's a version with altered statlines, and this time not using Thyrm, since I can only use Thyrm if I make the legendary into a different person, who I don't know if it fits in Lich.
A simple nice card. My only issue is with the amount of 0-2 cost spells the Lich has along with Devious Plan, you can summon a Flesh Titan with Grimkor very easily if you added this card. It can possibly be too easy already.
For those who care, I decided to upload my last remaining cards. I felt like this was as good as place as any to pots them. I really enjoyed the competition and I want to thank you all for your feedback and votes.
Just a quick reminder of what we're dealing with:
Naxx:
I felt like my Pirate theme or a Pirate deck for that matter wasn't really viable. There were only 2 weapon drawing cards in the basic set, with the Counterfeiter only being to able to draw a weapon if you were playing versus a weapon wielding class. The Naxx theme is a bit light on this one.
GvG:
I felt that my class was a bit slow and didn't have really an aggro variant. So I tried to create a lot of cards that could be used in an aggro based deck. Also, since it was lacking direct damage I added that as well.
Some final thoughts:
@Diplomacy: I felt like Diplomacy combo's well in a Pirate deck, but also allows the Trade Prince to get that extra turn needed to Cycle through his deck to get that life saving card.
BRM:
A card for a Giant/Legendary minions deck and one for an aggro deck. About the latter, if you have a couple of 1/1 and 2/2 minions, and they have a 7/7 minion, you will end up with the better deal.
Sorry, but everything below 6 Health makes him to vulnerable, one Fireball and he is out. On the other hand Divine Shield makes him to beefy. First turn only Immune leaves some space to react and lets you keep him at least one turn. I don't think it's cluttery, you just have one safe turn with him.
On the contrary, I wanted Mugger to be weak, more like utility card. 2 mana for armor and weapon seems right to me. :P
Why is Back to Work a nope card? It's something in between Noble Sacrifice and Counterspell. Noble is way cheaper and Counterspell is able to to protect our hero as well. I thinks it's a decent card.
Well, make him a 5/7 then. Right now the wording is too clunky because of the different keywords IMO.
Well, it's a pretty crappy card against anything but Warrior.
How is Merchant being viewed by almost 2000 people while the other three by under 100?
I haven't checked the latest Lich cards yet, but so far I liked both Merchant and Hammer, while getting a little disappointed from Demon Hunter.
Yes, I was wondering the same thing. I think probably people saw the 4 different links, 3 of them were big, evil, scary people from deep WoW lore, and the other one was Steve Jobs.
Regarding the Lich Class: Scheme is an awesome mechanic and I love the design of master plan, but what I have a problem with is the counter play possibly of some of your cards.
Let say you build a Lich-stall deck (maybe one similar to a freeze mage playstyle correct?) you let the opponent flood the board and you kill their tiny minions with your hero power and spells. On turn 5 you get a free board clear with Frigid Desolation and Shatter. Of course, you can argue that you can't always have those cards but it the same with Frost Nova Doomsayer (Frigid Desolation is random yes, but if you have no minions on the field, that doesn't matter.) Frigid Desolation and Shatter can't be counterplayed. How are you suppose to answer an immediate board wipe on TURN 5? Doomsayer can be countered by silence, removal, or just by killing it with burn. Frigid Desolation is an amazing card in design but I think Shatter isn't very healthy for the game.
Demise - Like I have mentioned previously before, this card could also be abused in a freeze mage playstyle. imagine you're going verus warlock that spam out imps or small minions or maybe a flamewaker mage with mirror image. Not only you do 2 damage to all enemies but IT A CARD DRAW ENGINE. That's ridiculous. The point of an AOE spell is to give you a buffer time and allow you some breathing room. That the point of flamestrike and blizzard. Having a 1 turn earlier blizzard can mean life and death, but not only that you get cards from clearing the board!??! The gaining card seems out of place honestly. You should just change it to "Draw a card for each TWO killed." or just removed it entirely which is much a better solution. Add the card draw mechanic to some other card. I would happily play a "5 mana deal 2 damage to enemies minions." Not all cards need to be flashy or do something extra - just keep it simple. You're already playing it a turn earlier than blizzard!!
Permafrost - Oh boy, where do i stay with this. Frigid Desolation into Perma frost into next turn absolutely zero or another permafrost and you lock them for three turns. The idea is great really, but the mana cost doesn't justify it. Let think of Frigid Desolation as a more random Frost Nova shall we? Frigid Desolation has the disadvantage of costing one less but random and not all enemies. If you play permafrost in combination to this, you would get a 2nd TWO mana frost nova and A CARD. A card itself is already worth two mana but giving it the extra freeze effect? That's just an other overloaded card. It cost way too little for it does. I don't mind the concept itself but this is unbalance by the fact that you only need to have it freeze 1-2 minions and it already worth it since IT ALREADY DRAWS A CARD!
Devious Plan - I read what you said about this but I think it's still not a very good idea for this to be in the game either. You use Emperor Thaurrisan as a comparison but is Emperor Thaurrisan good for the game either? Professional players like Strifeco has stated that Emperor Thaurrisan is an unhealthy card for the game since even though it allows gimmicky/convulted combos (like maylgos shaman) to work, it makes decks like flamewaker mage or patron warrior to be insane. Just play devious plan and Emperor Thaurrisan in the same deck and you build it in a freeze mage style - 3 mana frigid desolation shatter, 0 mana permafrosts. Your cards are way too low cost for the effect that they do. Your highest costing spell is like what? 6 MANA? and you have so many 1-4 costing spells that it ridiculous with Devious Plan.
Marrowgar - i won't be mentioning this since you already admitted to messing up on the card during the design process. Good on you for that!
Grimkor - This card can't exist as it is on the pure fact that devious plan and emperor thaurrisan exist. Just reduce all your spells and then just save it grimkor. You basically get a free board wipe without any skill required. The idea of the card is good but it not as situational as you think considering how much low cost spells you have in this class (6-7 one mana cost spells maybe?) You need to raise the cost to summon the Flesh Titan also, 4 spells seems way too easy in a combo based deck especially when you can add cheap spells like decay and save it.
Annihilation - Meh. Basically fireball. I would decrease it to 6 damage if there too much complaint or if it proves to be problematic. 7 damage just seems awkward honestly and I don't think players would appreciate a 4 mana card one shotting their Dr.Boom or sneeds. (At least mage needs to be ping for it! so it 6 mana)
Absolute Zero - has the potential to be broken or amazing but require playtesting. It basically a frost nova and a 3 mana mass dispel (without the card draw) The problem with mass dispel is that it cost too much for what it does and doesn't save you from the board. What i mean by saving you from the board is that - even though the minions are silenced they're still there. You have to clear them someway and mass dispel doesn't do that. This card stall for a turn AND silence. Oh you play sylvannas on a board full of minions? Absolutely zero, tehee. Might need to be increased in mana cost just because of the effect itself. 7 mana like a flamestrike maybe? I would still play one copy of it.
Countermeasures - I like the idea but I don't think we will ever see a card like this. Blizzard doesn't like cards that disrupt the opponent. Cards that influence you or change your cards is fine but don't want you to disrupt the opponent play. Frankly, just make it scheme your own deck. Still playable!
Soulbind - neat. might need to be a 3/4 since you can just put it on a cheap minion like ice eater though :) Still playable.
End of Hope - i thought this was broken but after further thought this is actually well designed. It fits into the scheme mechanic perfectly and it doesn't do more than what it offers. it a big minion with a hefty 10/10 stats. This is the kind of card you should be doing. It's simple and easy without extra effects to make it flashy.
Frozen Veins - Mark of the wild for 1 mana but it freeze itself. Seems good verus aggression since you just put a random minion you don't care about OR ancient watcher (Lich token deck?) and use this on it. Need to be play tested with but I think it would be a good spot at 2 mana since having it only cost one means you can just basically do something like - turn 3 play a two drop and use frozen veins on your other minion. Even if it a worse mark of the wild, it not suppose to be for dmg but rather a stall or defense.
Entomb - Damn.. this card. I saw that it once used to be a 0 mana card, and I have to say "Are you out of your mind?" This card is so broken LOL. You could just play shit like wicked deathspeaker for combos next turn or GADGETZIAN AUCTIONEER and just get so much value from ABSOLUTE INVULNERABILITY. There is no counter play around this card besides not letting your opponent play minions in the first place and that not possibly if you want to put out your big drops also. Combine this with devious plan and emperor thaurrisan like I said before, it get discounted so much that it could essentially become a 2 mana grant absolutely invulnerability. Play with auctioneer. Get massive amount of card draw and you know exactly what you're getting because of SCHEME 4. Scheme 4! With this card text? Overloaded card, really need to be toned down. Not every card need to be flashy! Think about how it interacts with the existing cards and how bad/good it could be for the other existing classes!
Frost Breath - Great design, need to be two mana. You would never play this in a non-dragon deck and a 1 mana freeze three is broke.
Raw Power - need to only deal 1 damage or changed to give decay for each two damage dealt (better change imo). You would never play this card without a combo that you planned out. Surge of power + raw power or maybe wicked deathspeaker. Broken card that provides unexpected card advantage and easy removal.
Lich - I think it should be a 5 mana maybe but it might not even be a problem in the first place. i don't think it a fair argument to compare it to ysera because unlike Ysera - it has the drawback of WASTING YOUR WHOLE TURN. Playing ysera is 9 mana of itself and you get a 4/12 and a random card. Of course the 7/6 drake is good, it has to be. it makes up for the drawback of playing ysera in the first place - IT WHY DREAM IS 0 COST!
Regarding the Lich Class: Scheme is an awesome mechanic and I love the design of master plan, but what I have a problem with is the counter play possibly of some of your cards.
Let say you build a Lich-stall deck (maybe one similar to a freeze mage playstyle correct?) you let the opponent flood the board and you kill their tiny minions with your hero power and spells. On turn 5 you get a free board clear with Frigid Desolation and Shatter. Of course, you can argue that you can't always have those cards but it the same with Frost Nova Doomsayer (Frigid Desolation is random yes, but if you have no minions on the field, that doesn't matter.) Frigid Desolation and Shatter can't be counterplayed. How are you suppose to answer an immediate board wipe on TURN 5? Doomsayer can be countered by silence, removal, or just by killing it with burn. Frigid Desolation is an amazing card in design but I think Shatter isn't very healthy for the game.
Demise - Like I have mentioned previously before, this card could also be abused in a freeze mage playstyle. imagine you're going verus warlock that spam out imps or small minions or maybe a flamewaker mage with mirror image. Not only you do 2 damage to all enemies but IT A CARD DRAW ENGINE. That's ridiculous. The point of an AOE spell is to give you a buffer time and allow you some breathing room. That the point of flamestrike and blizzard. Having a 1 turn earlier blizzard can mean life and death, but not only that you get cards from clearing the board!??! The gaining card seems out of place honestly. You should just change it to "Draw a card for each TWO killed." or just removed it entirely which is much a better solution. Add the card draw mechanic to some other card. I would happily play a "5 mana deal 2 damage to enemies minions." Not all cards need to be flashy or do something extra - just keep it simple. You're already playing it a turn earlier than blizzard!!
Permafrost - Oh boy, where do i stay with this. Frigid Desolation into Perma frost into next turn absolutely zero or another permafrost and you lock them for three turns. The idea is great really, but the mana cost doesn't justify it. Let think of Frigid Desolation as a more random Frost Nova shall we? Frigid Desolation has the disadvantage of costing one less but random and not all enemies. If you play permafrost in combination to this, you would get a 2nd TWO mana frost nova and A CARD. A card itself is already worth two mana but giving it the extra freeze effect? That's just an other overloaded card. It cost way too little for it does. I don't mind the concept itself but this is unbalance by the fact that you only need to have it freeze 1-2 minions and it already worth it since IT ALREADY DRAWS A CARD!
Devious Plan - I read what you said about this but I think it's still not a very good idea for this to be in the game either. You use Emperor Thaurrisan as a comparison but is Emperor Thaurrisan good for the game either? Professional players like Strifeco has stated that Emperor Thaurrisan is an unhealthy card for the game since even though it allows gimmicky/convulted combos (like maylgos shaman) to work, it makes decks like flamewaker mage or patron warrior to be insane. Just play devious plan and Emperor Thaurrisan in the same deck and you build it in a freeze mage style - 3 mana frigid desolation shatter, 0 mana permafrosts. Your cards are way too low cost for the effect that they do. Your highest costing spell is like what? 6 MANA? and you have so many 1-4 costing spells that it ridiculous with Devious Plan.
Marrowgar - i won't be mentioning this since you already admitted to messing up on the card during the design process. Good on you for that!
Grimkor - This card can't exist as it is on the pure fact that devious plan and emperor thaurrisan exist. Just reduce all your spells and then just save it grimkor. You basically get a free board wipe without any skill required. The idea of the card is good but it not as situational as you think considering how much low cost spells you have in this class (6-7 one mana cost spells maybe?) You need to raise the cost to summon the Flesh Titan also, 4 spells seems way too easy in a combo based deck especially when you can add cheap spells like decay and save it.
Annihilation - Meh. Basically fireball. I would decrease it to 6 damage if there too much complaint or if it proves to be problematic. 7 damage just seems awkward honestly and I don't think players would appreciate a 4 mana card one shotting their Dr.Boom or sneeds. (At least mage needs to be ping for it! so it 6 mana)
Absolute Zero - has the potential to be broken or amazing but require playtesting. It basically a frost nova and a 3 mana mass dispel (without the card draw) The problem with mass dispel is that it cost too much for what it does and doesn't save you from the board. What i mean by saving you from the board is that - even though the minions are silenced they're still there. You have to clear them someway and mass dispel doesn't do that. This card stall for a turn AND silence. Oh you play sylvannas on a board full of minions? Absolutely zero, tehee. Might need to be increased in mana cost just because of the effect itself. 7 mana like a flamestrike maybe? I would still play one copy of it.
Countermeasures - I like the idea but I don't think we will ever see a card like this. Blizzard doesn't like cards that disrupt the opponent. Cards that influence you or change your cards is fine but don't want you to disrupt the opponent play. Frankly, just make it scheme your own deck. Still playable!
Soulbind - neat. might need to be a 3/4 since you can just put it on a cheap minion like ice eater though :) Still playable.
End of Hope - i thought this was broken but after further thought this is actually well designed. It fits into the scheme mechanic perfectly and it doesn't do more than what it offers. it a big minion with a hefty 10/10 stats. This is the kind of card you should be doing. It's simple and easy without extra effects to make it flashy.
Frozen Veins - Mark of the wild for 1 mana but it freeze itself. Seems good verus aggression since you just put a random minion you don't care about OR ancient watcher (Lich token deck?) and use this on it. Need to be play tested with but I think it would be a good spot at 2 mana since having it only cost one means you can just basically do something like - turn 3 play a two drop and use frozen veins on your other minion. Even if it a worse mark of the wild, it not suppose to be for dmg but rather a stall or defense.
Entomb - Damn.. this card. I saw that it once used to be a 0 mana card, and I have to say "Are you out of your mind?" This card is so broken LOL. You could just play shit like wicked deathspeaker for combos next turn or GADGETZIAN AUCTIONEER and just get so much value from ABSOLUTE INVULNERABILITY. There is no counter play around this card besides not letting your opponent play minions in the first place and that not possibly if you want to put out your big drops also. Combine this with devious plan and emperor thaurrisan like I said before, it get discounted so much that it could essentially become a 2 mana grant absolutely invulnerability. Play with auctioneer. Get massive amount of card draw and you know exactly what you're getting because of SCHEME 4. Scheme 4! With this card text? Overloaded card, really need to be toned down. Not every card need to be flashy! Think about how it interacts with the existing cards and how bad/good it could be for the other existing classes!
Frost Breath - Great design, need to be two mana. You would never play this in a non-dragon deck and a 1 mana freeze three is broke.
Raw Power - need to only deal 1 damage or changed to give decay for each two damage dealt (better change imo). You would never play this card without a combo that you planned out. Surge of power + raw power or maybe wicked deathspeaker. Broken card that provides unexpected card advantage and easy removal.
Lich - I think it should be a 5 mana maybe but it might not even be a problem in the first place. i don't think it a fair argument to compare it to ysera because unlike Ysera - it has the drawback of WASTING YOUR WHOLE TURN. Playing ysera is 9 mana of itself and you get a 4/12 and a random card. Of course the 7/6 drake is good, it has to be. it makes up for the drawback of playing ysera in the first place - IT WHY DREAM IS 0 COST!
I appreciate the feedback, response time. I'm skipping the ones that I've already discussed in my submission thread. Off of the top of my head, this includes Annihilation, Countermeasures and Lich.
To start off - I may be wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding the effect of Frigid Desolation. It freezes 5 random minions, but it requires there be 5 minions on the board for it to even be played. So, this card can only really punish only your opponent if they play 5 minions straight into your face - which, as a Lich player, they should know not to do. It's similar to MCT. In the case where you play your own minions to contribute to the requirement, they will also be or have a chance to be frozen, so if you're using the Shatter combo, your own minions will die too. Regardless - I think that unless you're a mindless aggro player that doesn't think about any consequences, not only is there a great deal of counterplay to this card but it's not even that strong. In the playtesting I've seen, a typical board state only sometimes has 5 minions, and they're usually distributed evenly between both sides.
With Demise. You say "this card could be used in a Freeze mage playstle" and that "AoE is designed to give you buffer room", etc. You're comparing this card too much to blizzard. Instead, compare to consecrate. This card is the main card draw engine for shadow decks and an aggressive play against aggro decks. You could use it as an AoE in a freeze mage playstyle, but that's not the way you should look at the card. Plus, the reason that blizzard is so good is because it's the final of the 3 "Freeze all enemy minion" cards, which allow freeze mage to basically pause the game until turn 10. Still, this card is admittedly strong, the problem is, I'm not sure how good it would be at 6 mana. Will do some playtesting.
With Permafrost. Maybe you'll reconsider because of the Frigid Desolation explanation. Even so, I now do realize this card is OP. Honestly, I think the reason that it wasn't OP before is that originally Absolute Zero wasn't going to exist. I made a vow that said "There will be no card that is "Freeze all enemy minions" because I don't want a better equality+consec to exist." I'll elaborate more on this later. Regardless, cantrips are a very important thing for Lich, and Permafrost seemed like the ideal card to put in on because it was somewhat like Flare, where it doesn't always do something on its own. I could potentially bump the cost to 3 mana, but we'll see.
With Devious Plan. From a perspective of seeing Emperor Thaurissan as an unhealthy card, then yes, this card is unhealthy too. Although, I don't think it's as bad as it might look. True, there are many low cost spells and many amazing low counterplay combos that can be pulled off. The only one I'm really worried about here though is Raw Power / Decay / Spell damage shenanigans. While the other combos are indeed crazy, the worst they can be is "cheap board clears". This class doesn't have as many direct damage spells as Mage or Shaman (except for raw power, which is why I'm so worried about this). This card would be truly scary and unhealthy were it in mage, shaman, or even warlock, but here, I don't think it's too bad. Again, this one will come down to playtesting. Man, I have my work cut out for me ._.
Grimkor - I keep going back and forth on this card. "But it feels to hard to pull off!" "But it feels too easy to pull off!" but let's be realistic. So, the easiest way to trigger this card is to cast 4 low-cost spells on their own. From this, you can use 3 1 mana spells and 1 2 mana spell. Admittedly, Lich has a large pool of these, so it might be pretty easy. But think about this, if you want to get the full effect of this card, you have to wait until turn 10 and have a 5-card combo in your hand. If a 5-card combo is so realistic, what can some other classes do with 5 card combos? Well, mage has 22 damage to face, druid has at least 22 damage with only 4 cards, Rogue can do 21 damage, etc, etc. What does this class do? 7 damage to all enemies. Crazy? Yes. But I think "Lose instantly" is a bit stronger than "clear the enemy board". Using higher cost spells with Thaurissan and Devious Plan shenanigans only increases its improbability and the time it takes to play this combo. I do agree though that Lich has ended up with way too many spells on the low end of the spectrum as a result of too many attempts for combo pieces. In my reworks, my #1 priority is shifting the curve.
Absolute Zero - Okay, back to talking about this card. Pretty much, I found myself wanting to make a "Freeze all enemy minions" card. Even though I had gone back on that design concept, I knew that I would absolutely REFUSE to drop its mana cost anywhere below 5. Now all this left me with was a question of how to raise the cost of Frost Nova to 6 mana without introducing some dumb effect like "Draw two cards." Finally, the Silence all enemy minions came to me as a way to artificially increase the mana cost without introducing some equally powerful effect that made it so a mana cost of 9 wouldn't mean anything for being weaker than Equality+consec. Increasing this card's mana cost to 7, while a possibility, just feels Wrong. The beauty of this card is that it's a 6 mana Freeze all enemy minions that packs a huge punch in control decks vs. a sticky board without being a "blatantly underpowered" card. Nerfing this card to 7 mana is something that I just can't bring myself to do, unless for some reason this card is an unavoidable problem.
Frozen Veins - this card going to 2 mana is a healthy change, for sure. But, leaving it a +2/+2 just feels wrong. I can't just make a blatantly underpowered card like that, it goes waaay over the line of blatant OP/UP by Freezing your own minion for no reward whatsoever. I think this card could still be fine at +2/+3, even though It's less than I'd want.
Entomb - That's why this card was nerfed, then nerfed, then nerfed, then scheme introduced as an excuse to nerf it even beyond that, and then completely removed altogether. I thought that the introduction of Depths Lurker would be too gamebreaking to immediately include without any repairs on other cards, once I started basic playtesting I realized that it wasn't, but it was already too late to change as the competition started. If I can say anything to try to convince you that my card design skills are above that of a third grader, it's that I focused too much on this being only a minion aspect relative to board control and trading and stuff rather than the spell/combo cards like Gadgetzan, etc.
Frost Breath - It's not meant to be played in a non-dragon deck. While I know a 1 mana freeze 3 is really strong, and this card could be fair at 2 mana, all dragon decks except for the ones that shouldn't work seem really weak right now, I want to see if this card lets Dragon Lich pack a punch. If it's just an excess "strong for no reason" card, then nerfs ahoy.
Raw Power - Well, I'm not going to use either of those changes, as they just seem ugly. This card might go back to be just "Add two copies of decay to your hand", but that might be a bit far. Not sure.
Raw power adding two decay seems like a good deal honestly. Such combos like surge of power (or spell power minions) into raw power would deal 4 damage and give you 4 decays which totals to 8 damage for the cost of 4 mana. It a slow card certainly but can be overwhelming in control matchups. I like your idea much better than the suggestions i gave (i didn't really think much about them honestly compared to the other cards.)
Frigid Desolation - my apologies for misunderstanding the effect. If it works like you said then this card is definitely situational but I think it would shut down token decks that spam minions and punish them a bit too heavily. You might know more about this with play-testing.
Demise - If you're gonna make this card your draw engine, how would it do versus a control deck? if the control deck has big minions and your demise doesn't really kill their minions how would you get a decent card draw from it? From how I see it - it seems like this card is situational but still good versus control but amazing versus aggro. i still really advise you to put the card draw mechanic onto a different spell instead of this. It's suppose to be a consecration right? But you have an additional card draw mechanic for only ONE mana! if you get at least two cards, you get an arcane intellect and a 2 mana deal 2 damage to all enemy minions. It gives you such unfair advantage versus aggro. Maybe you could add a card similar to solemn vigil for paladin (Draw 2 cards. Reduce cost by (1) for each minion on your OPPONENT SIDE that died this turn) and add a different effect to demise instead of card draw. Could work ^^ need play testing.
Permafrost - just seems too good for it cost. Would it be possible to just make it a 2 or 3 mana all frozen charater stay frozen but give the card draw mechanic to a different or make another card that can help your card draw? I think the card draw here is very out of place when the effect is already so good. You could just build a deck around card draw like running acolyte of pain, gnomish, azure etc and that could work with lich stall cards.
Absolute Zero is a card worth complementing over and require play testing.
Frozen Veins - 2/3 for 2? Seems good to me honestly. It basically a 2 drop but with the added stats of another minion + taunt. It incentivize a possible token or zoo-like lich as weird as that sounds.
Frost Breath - How about you change it to 2 mana and add another spell and minion card that also synergize with dragons? I think that would be a good change. More cards to make dragon lich better and they have a stable freeze card! I might be able to think of something later on.
I look forward to your changes (or play testing information) regarding these cards (Grimkor, Entomb and Devious Plan especially). You earned my vote, good luck! I will keep up with the feedback when changes are implemented :)
Noticed a bit of a combo problem with the twilights hammer deck, If you have Feludius out (damage is changed to healing) and then use Searing Flames by mistake (1 damage to all enemy minions until one dies) you'd have the spell cast forever (or until the end of the world :P ) as it would be healing the opponents minions instead, and wouldn't be able to end as none of them would die... :P
Other than that the TH one's definitely my fav :)
There are plenty of "infinite loop" combos like this that already exist in Hearthstone, my favorites being Auchenai Soulpriest + Mistress of Pain and Bouncing Blade + Commanding Shout. These combos always have built-in caps to prevent the game from breaking, and I'm certain the combo you point out would have a cap as well.
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This is awesome and I support it with everything I got.
I like the single choice.
With the hidden thing, I don't really care because I don't think I'll win, but for the people who are really trying this might kill them from the intensity xD
@DKPaladinMDL
Cannon Fodder, really? XD. I really like all the cards. You can plan to get a taunt to survive, or get a big finisher. I think my favourite is Aberration though since you spend 3 spells to get it and he replaces them. Grimkor himself can be a 4/4 since he's a conditional silverhand knight baseline that's legendary. The wording for Thyrm is a bit off since there's nothing exactly like it in game. How about "Charge. Also damages all other enemies."
Also believe in yourself :D. You can win it!
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I didn't want to make it a 5 mana 4/4 because there's already a 5 mana 4/4 and no class has duplicate stat lines. I could do a 5 mana 3/5, though.
Here's a version with altered statlines, and this time not using Thyrm, since I can only use Thyrm if I make the legendary into a different person, who I don't know if it fits in Lich.
I really want to replace entomb. Here's the card I came up with, off of the themes of "Whenever this minion takes damage" and 3 mana 2/4's...
The only reason I didn't do this sooner is because it seemed like such an "Obvious" card.
A simple nice card. My only issue is with the amount of 0-2 cost spells the Lich has along with Devious Plan, you can summon a Flesh Titan with Grimkor very easily if you added this card. It can possibly be too easy already.
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Yes, this was my concern. Ideally, it would be alright with nerfs to Raw Power and the rework of Shadowfrost Lich, but we won't know until the future.
I guess I'll leave it out for now, but it'll probably go in first thing after the CCC is over.
For those who care, I decided to upload my last remaining cards. I felt like this was as good as place as any to pots them. I really enjoyed the competition and I want to thank you all for your feedback and votes.
Just a quick reminder of what we're dealing with:
Naxx:
I felt like my Pirate theme or a Pirate deck for that matter wasn't really viable. There were only 2 weapon drawing cards in the basic set, with the Counterfeiter only being to able to draw a weapon if you were playing versus a weapon wielding class. The Naxx theme is a bit light on this one.
GvG:
I felt that my class was a bit slow and didn't have really an aggro variant. So I tried to create a lot of cards that could be used in an aggro based deck. Also, since it was lacking direct damage I added that as well.
Some final thoughts:
@Diplomacy: I felt like Diplomacy combo's well in a Pirate deck, but also allows the Trade Prince to get that extra turn needed to Cycle through his deck to get that life saving card.
BRM:
A card for a Giant/Legendary minions deck and one for an aggro deck. About the latter, if you have a couple of 1/1 and 2/2 minions, and they have a 7/7 minion, you will end up with the better deal.
Well, make him a 5/7 then. Right now the wording is too clunky because of the different keywords IMO.
Well, it's a pretty crappy card against anything but Warrior.
Because of taunt mostly.
How is Merchant being viewed by almost 2000 people while the other three by under 100?
I haven't checked the latest Lich cards yet, but so far I liked both Merchant and Hammer, while getting a little disappointed from Demon Hunter.
My custom classes : /// / My Card Factory!
Yes, I was wondering the same thing. I think probably people saw the 4 different links, 3 of them were big, evil, scary people from deep WoW lore, and the other one was Steve Jobs.
I hope you like my cards :P
Its cool to see what you would have done, I always loved your influx mechanic, Something I'd love to see in actual game
Oh, Merchant was posted on HS Reddit and made front page.
That explains the 2000 views, but I feel cheated :(
That would explain a thing or two. I never understood the appeal of the class to begin with.
Nobody needs to feel cheated. After all, the winner isn't determined by final topic views. ^_~
Regarding the Lich Class: Scheme is an awesome mechanic and I love the design of master plan, but what I have a problem with is the counter play possibly of some of your cards.
Let say you build a Lich-stall deck (maybe one similar to a freeze mage playstyle correct?) you let the opponent flood the board and you kill their tiny minions with your hero power and spells. On turn 5 you get a free board clear with Frigid Desolation and Shatter. Of course, you can argue that you can't always have those cards but it the same with Frost Nova Doomsayer (Frigid Desolation is random yes, but if you have no minions on the field, that doesn't matter.) Frigid Desolation and Shatter can't be counterplayed. How are you suppose to answer an immediate board wipe on TURN 5? Doomsayer can be countered by silence, removal, or just by killing it with burn. Frigid Desolation is an amazing card in design but I think Shatter isn't very healthy for the game.
Demise - Like I have mentioned previously before, this card could also be abused in a freeze mage playstyle. imagine you're going verus warlock that spam out imps or small minions or maybe a flamewaker mage with mirror image. Not only you do 2 damage to all enemies but IT A CARD DRAW ENGINE. That's ridiculous. The point of an AOE spell is to give you a buffer time and allow you some breathing room. That the point of flamestrike and blizzard. Having a 1 turn earlier blizzard can mean life and death, but not only that you get cards from clearing the board!??! The gaining card seems out of place honestly. You should just change it to "Draw a card for each TWO killed." or just removed it entirely which is much a better solution. Add the card draw mechanic to some other card. I would happily play a "5 mana deal 2 damage to enemies minions." Not all cards need to be flashy or do something extra - just keep it simple. You're already playing it a turn earlier than blizzard!!
Permafrost - Oh boy, where do i stay with this. Frigid Desolation into Perma frost into next turn absolutely zero or another permafrost and you lock them for three turns. The idea is great really, but the mana cost doesn't justify it. Let think of Frigid Desolation as a more random Frost Nova shall we? Frigid Desolation has the disadvantage of costing one less but random and not all enemies. If you play permafrost in combination to this, you would get a 2nd TWO mana frost nova and A CARD. A card itself is already worth two mana but giving it the extra freeze effect? That's just an other overloaded card. It cost way too little for it does. I don't mind the concept itself but this is unbalance by the fact that you only need to have it freeze 1-2 minions and it already worth it since IT ALREADY DRAWS A CARD!
Devious Plan - I read what you said about this but I think it's still not a very good idea for this to be in the game either. You use Emperor Thaurrisan as a comparison but is Emperor Thaurrisan good for the game either? Professional players like Strifeco has stated that Emperor Thaurrisan is an unhealthy card for the game since even though it allows gimmicky/convulted combos (like maylgos shaman) to work, it makes decks like flamewaker mage or patron warrior to be insane. Just play devious plan and Emperor Thaurrisan in the same deck and you build it in a freeze mage style - 3 mana frigid desolation shatter, 0 mana permafrosts. Your cards are way too low cost for the effect that they do. Your highest costing spell is like what? 6 MANA? and you have so many 1-4 costing spells that it ridiculous with Devious Plan.
Marrowgar - i won't be mentioning this since you already admitted to messing up on the card during the design process. Good on you for that!
Grimkor - This card can't exist as it is on the pure fact that devious plan and emperor thaurrisan exist. Just reduce all your spells and then just save it grimkor. You basically get a free board wipe without any skill required. The idea of the card is good but it not as situational as you think considering how much low cost spells you have in this class (6-7 one mana cost spells maybe?) You need to raise the cost to summon the Flesh Titan also, 4 spells seems way too easy in a combo based deck especially when you can add cheap spells like decay and save it.
Annihilation - Meh. Basically fireball. I would decrease it to 6 damage if there too much complaint or if it proves to be problematic. 7 damage just seems awkward honestly and I don't think players would appreciate a 4 mana card one shotting their Dr.Boom or sneeds. (At least mage needs to be ping for it! so it 6 mana)
Absolute Zero - has the potential to be broken or amazing but require playtesting. It basically a frost nova and a 3 mana mass dispel (without the card draw) The problem with mass dispel is that it cost too much for what it does and doesn't save you from the board. What i mean by saving you from the board is that - even though the minions are silenced they're still there. You have to clear them someway and mass dispel doesn't do that. This card stall for a turn AND silence. Oh you play sylvannas on a board full of minions? Absolutely zero, tehee. Might need to be increased in mana cost just because of the effect itself. 7 mana like a flamestrike maybe? I would still play one copy of it.
Countermeasures - I like the idea but I don't think we will ever see a card like this. Blizzard doesn't like cards that disrupt the opponent. Cards that influence you or change your cards is fine but don't want you to disrupt the opponent play. Frankly, just make it scheme your own deck. Still playable!
Soulbind - neat. might need to be a 3/4 since you can just put it on a cheap minion like ice eater though :) Still playable.
End of Hope - i thought this was broken but after further thought this is actually well designed. It fits into the scheme mechanic perfectly and it doesn't do more than what it offers. it a big minion with a hefty 10/10 stats. This is the kind of card you should be doing. It's simple and easy without extra effects to make it flashy.
Frozen Veins - Mark of the wild for 1 mana but it freeze itself. Seems good verus aggression since you just put a random minion you don't care about OR ancient watcher (Lich token deck?) and use this on it. Need to be play tested with but I think it would be a good spot at 2 mana since having it only cost one means you can just basically do something like - turn 3 play a two drop and use frozen veins on your other minion. Even if it a worse mark of the wild, it not suppose to be for dmg but rather a stall or defense.
Entomb - Damn.. this card. I saw that it once used to be a 0 mana card, and I have to say "Are you out of your mind?" This card is so broken LOL. You could just play shit like wicked deathspeaker for combos next turn or GADGETZIAN AUCTIONEER and just get so much value from ABSOLUTE INVULNERABILITY. There is no counter play around this card besides not letting your opponent play minions in the first place and that not possibly if you want to put out your big drops also. Combine this with devious plan and emperor thaurrisan like I said before, it get discounted so much that it could essentially become a 2 mana grant absolutely invulnerability. Play with auctioneer. Get massive amount of card draw and you know exactly what you're getting because of SCHEME 4. Scheme 4! With this card text? Overloaded card, really need to be toned down. Not every card need to be flashy! Think about how it interacts with the existing cards and how bad/good it could be for the other existing classes!
Frost Breath - Great design, need to be two mana. You would never play this in a non-dragon deck and a 1 mana freeze three is broke.
Raw Power - need to only deal 1 damage or changed to give decay for each two damage dealt (better change imo). You would never play this card without a combo that you planned out. Surge of power + raw power or maybe wicked deathspeaker. Broken card that provides unexpected card advantage and easy removal.
Lich - I think it should be a 5 mana maybe but it might not even be a problem in the first place. i don't think it a fair argument to compare it to ysera because unlike Ysera - it has the drawback of WASTING YOUR WHOLE TURN. Playing ysera is 9 mana of itself and you get a 4/12 and a random card. Of course the 7/6 drake is good, it has to be. it makes up for the drawback of playing ysera in the first place - IT WHY DREAM IS 0 COST!
I appreciate the feedback, response time. I'm skipping the ones that I've already discussed in my submission thread. Off of the top of my head, this includes Annihilation, Countermeasures and Lich.
To start off - I may be wrong, but I think you're misunderstanding the effect of Frigid Desolation. It freezes 5 random minions, but it requires there be 5 minions on the board for it to even be played. So, this card can only really punish only your opponent if they play 5 minions straight into your face - which, as a Lich player, they should know not to do. It's similar to MCT. In the case where you play your own minions to contribute to the requirement, they will also be or have a chance to be frozen, so if you're using the Shatter combo, your own minions will die too. Regardless - I think that unless you're a mindless aggro player that doesn't think about any consequences, not only is there a great deal of counterplay to this card but it's not even that strong. In the playtesting I've seen, a typical board state only sometimes has 5 minions, and they're usually distributed evenly between both sides.
With Demise. You say "this card could be used in a Freeze mage playstle" and that "AoE is designed to give you buffer room", etc. You're comparing this card too much to blizzard. Instead, compare to consecrate. This card is the main card draw engine for shadow decks and an aggressive play against aggro decks. You could use it as an AoE in a freeze mage playstyle, but that's not the way you should look at the card. Plus, the reason that blizzard is so good is because it's the final of the 3 "Freeze all enemy minion" cards, which allow freeze mage to basically pause the game until turn 10. Still, this card is admittedly strong, the problem is, I'm not sure how good it would be at 6 mana. Will do some playtesting.
With Permafrost. Maybe you'll reconsider because of the Frigid Desolation explanation. Even so, I now do realize this card is OP. Honestly, I think the reason that it wasn't OP before is that originally Absolute Zero wasn't going to exist. I made a vow that said "There will be no card that is "Freeze all enemy minions" because I don't want a better equality+consec to exist." I'll elaborate more on this later. Regardless, cantrips are a very important thing for Lich, and Permafrost seemed like the ideal card to put in on because it was somewhat like Flare, where it doesn't always do something on its own. I could potentially bump the cost to 3 mana, but we'll see.
With Devious Plan. From a perspective of seeing Emperor Thaurissan as an unhealthy card, then yes, this card is unhealthy too. Although, I don't think it's as bad as it might look. True, there are many low cost spells and many amazing low counterplay combos that can be pulled off. The only one I'm really worried about here though is Raw Power / Decay / Spell damage shenanigans. While the other combos are indeed crazy, the worst they can be is "cheap board clears". This class doesn't have as many direct damage spells as Mage or Shaman (except for raw power, which is why I'm so worried about this). This card would be truly scary and unhealthy were it in mage, shaman, or even warlock, but here, I don't think it's too bad. Again, this one will come down to playtesting. Man, I have my work cut out for me ._.
Grimkor - I keep going back and forth on this card. "But it feels to hard to pull off!" "But it feels too easy to pull off!" but let's be realistic. So, the easiest way to trigger this card is to cast 4 low-cost spells on their own. From this, you can use 3 1 mana spells and 1 2 mana spell. Admittedly, Lich has a large pool of these, so it might be pretty easy. But think about this, if you want to get the full effect of this card, you have to wait until turn 10 and have a 5-card combo in your hand. If a 5-card combo is so realistic, what can some other classes do with 5 card combos? Well, mage has 22 damage to face, druid has at least 22 damage with only 4 cards, Rogue can do 21 damage, etc, etc. What does this class do? 7 damage to all enemies. Crazy? Yes. But I think "Lose instantly" is a bit stronger than "clear the enemy board". Using higher cost spells with Thaurissan and Devious Plan shenanigans only increases its improbability and the time it takes to play this combo. I do agree though that Lich has ended up with way too many spells on the low end of the spectrum as a result of too many attempts for combo pieces. In my reworks, my #1 priority is shifting the curve.
Absolute Zero - Okay, back to talking about this card. Pretty much, I found myself wanting to make a "Freeze all enemy minions" card. Even though I had gone back on that design concept, I knew that I would absolutely REFUSE to drop its mana cost anywhere below 5. Now all this left me with was a question of how to raise the cost of Frost Nova to 6 mana without introducing some dumb effect like "Draw two cards." Finally, the Silence all enemy minions came to me as a way to artificially increase the mana cost without introducing some equally powerful effect that made it so a mana cost of 9 wouldn't mean anything for being weaker than Equality+consec. Increasing this card's mana cost to 7, while a possibility, just feels Wrong. The beauty of this card is that it's a 6 mana Freeze all enemy minions that packs a huge punch in control decks vs. a sticky board without being a "blatantly underpowered" card. Nerfing this card to 7 mana is something that I just can't bring myself to do, unless for some reason this card is an unavoidable problem.
Frozen Veins - this card going to 2 mana is a healthy change, for sure. But, leaving it a +2/+2 just feels wrong. I can't just make a blatantly underpowered card like that, it goes waaay over the line of blatant OP/UP by Freezing your own minion for no reward whatsoever. I think this card could still be fine at +2/+3, even though It's less than I'd want.
Entomb - That's why this card was nerfed, then nerfed, then nerfed, then scheme introduced as an excuse to nerf it even beyond that, and then completely removed altogether. I thought that the introduction of Depths Lurker would be too gamebreaking to immediately include without any repairs on other cards, once I started basic playtesting I realized that it wasn't, but it was already too late to change as the competition started. If I can say anything to try to convince you that my card design skills are above that of a third grader, it's that I focused too much on this being only a minion aspect relative to board control and trading and stuff rather than the spell/combo cards like Gadgetzan, etc.
Frost Breath - It's not meant to be played in a non-dragon deck. While I know a 1 mana freeze 3 is really strong, and this card could be fair at 2 mana, all dragon decks except for the ones that shouldn't work seem really weak right now, I want to see if this card lets Dragon Lich pack a punch. If it's just an excess "strong for no reason" card, then nerfs ahoy.
Raw Power - Well, I'm not going to use either of those changes, as they just seem ugly. This card might go back to be just "Add two copies of decay to your hand", but that might be a bit far. Not sure.
Raw power adding two decay seems like a good deal honestly. Such combos like surge of power (or spell power minions) into raw power would deal 4 damage and give you 4 decays which totals to 8 damage for the cost of 4 mana. It a slow card certainly but can be overwhelming in control matchups. I like your idea much better than the suggestions i gave (i didn't really think much about them honestly compared to the other cards.)
Frigid Desolation - my apologies for misunderstanding the effect. If it works like you said then this card is definitely situational but I think it would shut down token decks that spam minions and punish them a bit too heavily. You might know more about this with play-testing.
Demise - If you're gonna make this card your draw engine, how would it do versus a control deck? if the control deck has big minions and your demise doesn't really kill their minions how would you get a decent card draw from it? From how I see it - it seems like this card is situational but still good versus control but amazing versus aggro. i still really advise you to put the card draw mechanic onto a different spell instead of this. It's suppose to be a consecration right? But you have an additional card draw mechanic for only ONE mana! if you get at least two cards, you get an arcane intellect and a 2 mana deal 2 damage to all enemy minions. It gives you such unfair advantage versus aggro. Maybe you could add a card similar to solemn vigil for paladin (Draw 2 cards. Reduce cost by (1) for each minion on your OPPONENT SIDE that died this turn) and add a different effect to demise instead of card draw. Could work ^^ need play testing.
Permafrost - just seems too good for it cost. Would it be possible to just make it a 2 or 3 mana all frozen charater stay frozen but give the card draw mechanic to a different or make another card that can help your card draw? I think the card draw here is very out of place when the effect is already so good. You could just build a deck around card draw like running acolyte of pain, gnomish, azure etc and that could work with lich stall cards.
Absolute Zero is a card worth complementing over and require play testing.
Frozen Veins - 2/3 for 2? Seems good to me honestly. It basically a 2 drop but with the added stats of another minion + taunt. It incentivize a possible token or zoo-like lich as weird as that sounds.
Frost Breath - How about you change it to 2 mana and add another spell and minion card that also synergize with dragons? I think that would be a good change. More cards to make dragon lich better and they have a stable freeze card! I might be able to think of something later on.
I look forward to your changes (or play testing information) regarding these cards (Grimkor, Entomb and Devious Plan especially). You earned my vote, good luck! I will keep up with the feedback when changes are implemented :)
There are plenty of "infinite loop" combos like this that already exist in Hearthstone, my favorites being Auchenai Soulpriest + Mistress of Pain and Bouncing Blade + Commanding Shout. These combos always have built-in caps to prevent the game from breaking, and I'm certain the combo you point out would have a cap as well.