I have been playing hearthstone in cockatrice and it seems to me that Druid decks are more powerful then other classes. It is possible that players are not building other classes decks correctly, but against most opponents i have an easier time against any class other than the druid. Also, druid decks have been banned from the tournaments that the community is organizing on cockatrice, so i guess my perception is correct.
I don't want to make a complete analysis on why Druid decks are so good, that is very complex subject. I'm sure devs are working on balancing the classes, and the Druid has to be one of the main points of attention. What i want to do here is point out some of the cards that feel unbalanced, possibly helping out on finding solutions to the problem.
The first card i want to talk about, that feels VERY unbalanced is Wild Growth. At first sight, it looks like a reasonable card: a spell that cost 2 mana and add 1 empty mana crystal (if you play magic, you can compare it to farseek or any other ramp spell). But one game against a Druid and I realized that this card cannot be healthy to the game.
So, this is what happened. I was on the play, drew 3 cards while the opponent drew 4. We did mulligans and i did not play anything on the first turn. On his turn he drew his card, used The Coin and played Wild Growth. So, at the end of his turn i had 1 mana crystal and 4 cards in hand. He had 2 mana crystals and same 4 cards in hand. We continued the game, but his mana crystal advantage (plus the overall powerful druid cards) just overwhelmed my plays, which were just fine against other classes.
After the game, i thought about it and came to a conclusion. By having the Wild Growth on turn 1 (which is not very unlikely due to mulligans with 4 cards in hand) the opponent reversed the play first advantage. He did had to use a card (Wild Growth) and The Coin in order to do so, but did it on turn 1 when most of time players do not have a card to play. In the end, the "card advantage" was passed to me, but it was not enough to counter his mana crystal advantage.
There is a reason why the player going second gets 1 more card AND The Coin. Playing first is a huge advantage. Every minion and spell you play is going to be stronger than the cards your opponent played before. Every turn, for the rest of the game! I believe the designers/devs are doing great work on finding a sweet spot where playing first is not such a great advantage (due to opponent having 1 extra card + the coin). But imho, Wild Growth ability to shift the game dynamics are too powerful. The scenario I described was used because I believe it was clear to me that Wild Growth on turn 1 totally changed how the game played, but i'm sure the card is very powerful on other situations as well (turn 2 on the play comes to mind).
So, let me know your opinion. Is Druid really OP? Is Wild Growth too good? What other Druid card is too powerful and deserves balancing?
IMO i believe that druids are way to over powered. I had a druid used innervate on turn 3 and use nourish for 2 mana crystals. So had 2 extra mana to use the Wild growth spell. On turn 4 he had 7 mana which is pretty ridiculous since he was able to use Cenarius on turn 4 since he was a 2nd turn player and used the coin. I could not stop him. I understand you could stop him with a deck focused on control. But i KNOW that going against a druid is a lot harder than fighting any other class.
I can tell that the druid's utility is WAY to strong, more then half their cards have 2 options, to make their card tanky or damage. They can clear a full board with claw/bite + savagery AND still attack your champion with a 3/6 damage. So i believe that druids need to be nerfed on how they can have 1 card become extremely defensive or agressive (Example: Ancient of War 5/5) instead of giving him the option to be a 5/10 + Taunt, or 10/5. And Nourish is just a card I want changed 100% 2 free mana crystals; draw 3 cards.. (3?!). Sprint needs 7 mana crystals which is 2 turns later just for +1 card. I believe this card utility is WAY to strong and allows for a druid to play extremely aggressive or control the board x2.
I have won against druids before they are not unstoppable but by far are the hardest for me to ever fight since their utility is very powerful. I can summon a Savannah Highmane, A druid just has to Bite (+6) attack my Highmane his deathrattle that makes him very dangerous to kill since the hunter can gain (x2) 2/2 hyenas until the druid can use Savagery and finish off your extra minions you may have no matter what it is except for the strongest beast in the game a King Krush at 8/8 (given that the hunter is a beast user). But that would leave King at 8/2 where he is at kill range from even level 1 minions at 2/1. Only way i see druids seeing the same balance is once again lower their utility to make a druid focus more on what they are planning on doing instead of being on the high side of every part of this game whether it'd be Swarm, powerful minions, control, draw power, direct damage.
Only way i see druids seeing the same balance is once again lower their utility to make a druid focus more on what they are planning on doing instead of being on the high side of every part of this game whether it'd be Swarm, powerful minions, control, draw power, direct damage.
I think this is the problem, like it was in WoW. If you give them too much power in their utility they become OP, and if you give hem too little utility then the deck has no flavour, or is too weak to function. It's exactly why they decided to split the cat and bear druid trees, so they could finally make both of them work, without risking that either side is way too strong or way too weak. It's a fine line to walk, and apparently Blizzard have not yet found the balance in Hearthstone.
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I agree on a lot of the stuff you said, but i don't think removing the Druid versatility is the right way to go. The problem with druid is the combination of power and versatility. For instance, nourish is a great card imo, but once you use it with inervate on turn 3 it becomes too good. Combine that with the Wild Growth effect and you really see some unfair games.
If I could change Druid cards i would increase Wild Growth mana by 1, and remove innervate from the game. Those to me seem the most unbalanced, and change the game dynamics too much. (They are like mox and lotus on mtg)
Well, mana advantage is supposed to be one of the druids strengths. A thing to remember is that there are other champions than the druid that can put out a really strong start, which possibly could put out more pressure early than converting your coin to make you. An example could be the shaman's dust devil. Dropping 2 of those on turn one with the coin
However, I see your point. The Wild Growth start will give you an advantage for about the next 10 turns which can't be prevented compared to a dangerous minion. The chance of it happening is also high as it is a single card that is neccessary. If you discard all your cards you can look at 8 of your 30 cards to hopefully find a wild growth, which is about a 53% for successfully drawing it. However. putting all your chances on getting one is risky and could backlash with a bad starting hand instead. Discarding 2 cards is more realistic, giving a 40% chance to draw one.
But even if successful it won't guarantee an advantage. Just as the one that starts second also can win. Also, not getting it early severely reduces it's power. Using 2 mana in the later stages to get a crystal won't do much good. It might just be better to save it for when you already have 10 crystals to replace it with another card. In that case a Novice engineer would have worked better.
Honestly, permanent mana generation is a very strong mechanic early. But Wild Growth alone is acceptable. I would say that Nourish is a bigger offender than wild growth. A double crystal/2 cards for 3 mana or 3 cards for 5 mana? The heavy card draw effect keeps the card strong even if you did not get it early enough to efficiently make use of the crystals. Combining Wild Growth and Nourish of them would have outrageous outcome.
I'm careful to judge it too quickly as I have not played Cockatrice. But currently I'd let Wild Growth remain and remove the effect from Nourish.
Well, I thought about the mechanic in general and I questioned myself this. How satisfied are you playing a permanent mana generation card?
Personally I'd say not much. Five turns later when I barely play this big taunt minion that saves the game I won't think back and say "YES, that Wild Growth back there enabled me to play this card that saved life". I would probably have been satisfied for playing the minion instead, completely forgetting the past Wild Growth. As a comparison if I would have used Innervate to play the big taunt minion instead would make me feel much more satisfied playing a successful combo to save the game.
And the opponent? He is the one that notices the extreme advantage. Not by that I have more mana than him, but by that he has fewer mana crystals than I. The "permanent mana" mechanic does cause more frustration for the opponent for having a disadvantage than what it makes the user satisfied of having the advantage. The situation is actually very similar to what most people think about the fel guard currently. In short. The permanent mana generation is a almost pure negative effect. Causing a permanent gap through Arcane Golem or Fel Guard is acceptable as it is your own choice to attempt gaining more power at a cost. But that using it as a positive effect will only result in the opponent feeling negative.
I'd say both Wild Growth and Nourish (Replace mana effect) as they only make the opponent feel bad while you don't feel as good. Innervate is fine as, while very strong, it gives the user massive satisfaction.
Druid is absolutely overpowered, that much is definite and non debateable. But would growth is not OP at all to me. Ji don't even include it in any Druid decks Iv made. I'm sure it has its uses but it's def not part of the problem. I think take away savagery and Druid becomes merely top tier farther than god tier. Honestly I don't see Druid dropping from top tier barring a drastic class remake, their just too good. Starfall, swipe, wrath, naturalize alone makes the class top tier and are alwe goo cards that don't need a rework, except possibly naturalize wich I could go back to 2 mana and still be the best removal in the game.
I'm surprised that with all of this druid op talk, no one is bringing up the fact that they can literally do 16+ dmg on turn 9. The druid combo is too strong and definitely needs some kind of nerf.
I'm surprised that with all of this druid op talk, no one is bringing up the fact that they can literally do 16+ dmg on turn 9. The druid combo is too strong and definitely needs some kind of nerf.
And the award "Most hardcore Necroposter" goes to this guy here.
Druid is completely fine. Yes, combo druid wrecks a lot of decks hard, but contrary to popular belief it does get owned pretty hard by a fair share of decks too.
Yes, it's annoying as hell to meet when you dust of the old freeze mage or want to level quickly with your facehunter, but hey... that's life.
I have been playing hearthstone in cockatrice and it seems to me that Druid decks are more powerful then other classes. It is possible that players are not building other classes decks correctly, but against most opponents i have an easier time against any class other than the druid. Also, druid decks have been banned from the tournaments that the community is organizing on cockatrice, so i guess my perception is correct.
I don't want to make a complete analysis on why Druid decks are so good, that is very complex subject. I'm sure devs are working on balancing the classes, and the Druid has to be one of the main points of attention. What i want to do here is point out some of the cards that feel unbalanced, possibly helping out on finding solutions to the problem.
The first card i want to talk about, that feels VERY unbalanced is Wild Growth. At first sight, it looks like a reasonable card: a spell that cost 2 mana and add 1 empty mana crystal (if you play magic, you can compare it to farseek or any other ramp spell). But one game against a Druid and I realized that this card cannot be healthy to the game.
So, this is what happened. I was on the play, drew 3 cards while the opponent drew 4. We did mulligans and i did not play anything on the first turn. On his turn he drew his card, used The Coin and played Wild Growth. So, at the end of his turn i had 1 mana crystal and 4 cards in hand. He had 2 mana crystals and same 4 cards in hand. We continued the game, but his mana crystal advantage (plus the overall powerful druid cards) just overwhelmed my plays, which were just fine against other classes.
After the game, i thought about it and came to a conclusion. By having the Wild Growth on turn 1 (which is not very unlikely due to mulligans with 4 cards in hand) the opponent reversed the play first advantage. He did had to use a card (Wild Growth) and The Coin in order to do so, but did it on turn 1 when most of time players do not have a card to play. In the end, the "card advantage" was passed to me, but it was not enough to counter his mana crystal advantage.
There is a reason why the player going second gets 1 more card AND The Coin. Playing first is a huge advantage. Every minion and spell you play is going to be stronger than the cards your opponent played before. Every turn, for the rest of the game! I believe the designers/devs are doing great work on finding a sweet spot where playing first is not such a great advantage (due to opponent having 1 extra card + the coin). But imho, Wild Growth ability to shift the game dynamics are too powerful. The scenario I described was used because I believe it was clear to me that Wild Growth on turn 1 totally changed how the game played, but i'm sure the card is very powerful on other situations as well (turn 2 on the play comes to mind).
So, let me know your opinion. Is Druid really OP? Is Wild Growth too good? What other Druid card is too powerful and deserves balancing?
hs.rorix@gmail.com
A small community of Cockatrice players agree from their experience that druids are OP, which doesn't necessarily mean that druids are OP.
I do not think Wild Growth is really that strong - it's combos with Savagery that are frustrating but I repeat, not necessarily OP.
IMO i believe that druids are way to over powered. I had a druid used innervate on turn 3 and use nourish for 2 mana crystals. So had 2 extra mana to use the Wild growth spell. On turn 4 he had 7 mana which is pretty ridiculous since he was able to use Cenarius on turn 4 since he was a 2nd turn player and used the coin. I could not stop him. I understand you could stop him with a deck focused on control. But i KNOW that going against a druid is a lot harder than fighting any other class.
I can tell that the druid's utility is WAY to strong, more then half their cards have 2 options, to make their card tanky or damage. They can clear a full board with claw/bite + savagery AND still attack your champion with a 3/6 damage. So i believe that druids need to be nerfed on how they can have 1 card become extremely defensive or agressive (Example: Ancient of War 5/5) instead of giving him the option to be a 5/10 + Taunt, or 10/5. And Nourish is just a card I want changed 100% 2 free mana crystals; draw 3 cards.. (3?!). Sprint needs 7 mana crystals which is 2 turns later just for +1 card. I believe this card utility is WAY to strong and allows for a druid to play extremely aggressive or control the board x2.
I have won against druids before they are not unstoppable but by far are the hardest for me to ever fight since their utility is very powerful. I can summon a Savannah Highmane, A druid just has to Bite (+6) attack my Highmane his deathrattle that makes him very dangerous to kill since the hunter can gain (x2) 2/2 hyenas until the druid can use Savagery and finish off your extra minions you may have no matter what it is except for the strongest beast in the game a King Krush at 8/8 (given that the hunter is a beast user). But that would leave King at 8/2 where he is at kill range from even level 1 minions at 2/1. Only way i see druids seeing the same balance is once again lower their utility to make a druid focus more on what they are planning on doing instead of being on the high side of every part of this game whether it'd be Swarm, powerful minions, control, draw power, direct damage.
I think this is the problem, like it was in WoW. If you give them too much power in their utility they become OP, and if you give hem too little utility then the deck has no flavour, or is too weak to function. It's exactly why they decided to split the cat and bear druid trees, so they could finally make both of them work, without risking that either side is way too strong or way too weak. It's a fine line to walk, and apparently Blizzard have not yet found the balance in Hearthstone.
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I agree on a lot of the stuff you said, but i don't think removing the Druid versatility is the right way to go. The problem with druid is the combination of power and versatility. For instance, nourish is a great card imo, but once you use it with inervate on turn 3 it becomes too good. Combine that with the Wild Growth effect and you really see some unfair games.
If I could change Druid cards i would increase Wild Growth mana by 1, and remove innervate from the game. Those to me seem the most unbalanced, and change the game dynamics too much. (They are like mox and lotus on mtg)
hs.rorix@gmail.com
Well, mana advantage is supposed to be one of the druids strengths. A thing to remember is that there are other champions than the druid that can put out a really strong start, which possibly could put out more pressure early than converting your coin to make you. An example could be the shaman's dust devil. Dropping 2 of those on turn one with the coin
However, I see your point. The Wild Growth start will give you an advantage for about the next 10 turns which can't be prevented compared to a dangerous minion. The chance of it happening is also high as it is a single card that is neccessary. If you discard all your cards you can look at 8 of your 30 cards to hopefully find a wild growth, which is about a 53% for successfully drawing it. However. putting all your chances on getting one is risky and could backlash with a bad starting hand instead. Discarding 2 cards is more realistic, giving a 40% chance to draw one.
But even if successful it won't guarantee an advantage. Just as the one that starts second also can win. Also, not getting it early severely reduces it's power. Using 2 mana in the later stages to get a crystal won't do much good. It might just be better to save it for when you already have 10 crystals to replace it with another card. In that case a Novice engineer would have worked better.
Honestly, permanent mana generation is a very strong mechanic early. But Wild Growth alone is acceptable. I would say that Nourish is a bigger offender than wild growth. A double crystal/2 cards for 3 mana or 3 cards for 5 mana? The heavy card draw effect keeps the card strong even if you did not get it early enough to efficiently make use of the crystals. Combining Wild Growth and Nourish of them would have outrageous outcome.
I'm careful to judge it too quickly as I have not played Cockatrice. But currently I'd let Wild Growth remain and remove the effect from Nourish.
Well, I thought about the mechanic in general and I questioned myself this. How satisfied are you playing a permanent mana generation card?
Personally I'd say not much. Five turns later when I barely play this big taunt minion that saves the game I won't think back and say "YES, that Wild Growth back there enabled me to play this card that saved life". I would probably have been satisfied for playing the minion instead, completely forgetting the past Wild Growth. As a comparison if I would have used Innervate to play the big taunt minion instead would make me feel much more satisfied playing a successful combo to save the game.
And the opponent? He is the one that notices the extreme advantage. Not by that I have more mana than him, but by that he has fewer mana crystals than I. The "permanent mana" mechanic does cause more frustration for the opponent for having a disadvantage than what it makes the user satisfied of having the advantage. The situation is actually very similar to what most people think about the fel guard currently. In short. The permanent mana generation is a almost pure negative effect. Causing a permanent gap through Arcane Golem or Fel Guard is acceptable as it is your own choice to attempt gaining more power at a cost. But that using it as a positive effect will only result in the opponent feeling negative.
I'd say both Wild Growth and Nourish (Replace mana effect) as they only make the opponent feel bad while you don't feel as good. Innervate is fine as, while very strong, it gives the user massive satisfaction.
Druid is absolutely overpowered, that much is definite and non debateable. But would growth is not OP at all to me. Ji don't even include it in any Druid decks Iv made. I'm sure it has its uses but it's def not part of the problem. I think take away savagery and Druid becomes merely top tier farther than god tier. Honestly I don't see Druid dropping from top tier barring a drastic class remake, their just too good. Starfall, swipe, wrath, naturalize alone makes the class top tier and are alwe goo cards that don't need a rework, except possibly naturalize wich I could go back to 2 mana and still be the best removal in the game.
I'm surprised that with all of this druid op talk, no one is bringing up the fact that they can literally do 16+ dmg on turn 9. The druid combo is too strong and definitely needs some kind of nerf.
I bring life and pffffffffffffff!
Druid is completely fine. Yes, combo druid wrecks a lot of decks hard, but contrary to popular belief it does get owned pretty hard by a fair share of decks too.
Yes, it's annoying as hell to meet when you dust of the old freeze mage or want to level quickly with your facehunter, but hey... that's life.
Why do people love resurrecting old threads like this one? You realize that the topic is from July 2013?
As this thread is quite old, and is no longer relevant, I'm opting to close it.