Ben Brode on Ranked System Weakness, Tournament Mode, Community Conversations
Mr. Brode was out on reddit this morning to expand upon a recent tweet of his which stated there would be changes to seasonal grinding and that tournament mode would be a great addition to the game. We've got a recap of his grand wall o' text below, but we encourage you to read everything; It's good!
Keep in mind that text below is not an announcement of things to come, but instead, Ben explaining what they're thinking and trying to start a conversation.
Ranked System Weaknesses
Ben thinks there are four major weaknesses to the Ranked Play System. These weaknesses are believed to all be addressable, with the fourth weakness potentially being fixed by a "tournament mode" and not by a change to ranked itself.
The issue boils down to how progression works at every level of the ladder.
Quote from Ben Brode
- Top end players have to grind too much to get fun matches each month.
- Low end players have very little progression: just a few wins and then they get "stuck" at rank 20-17. This is the vast majority of active players.
- New players who enter ranked get crushed hard (after a pretty good experience in Casual).
- Doing the same thing over and over again each month feels like a 'grind'.
I think we can do all that (hopefully - this stuff is difficult to predict without live testing). The hardest to hit is number 4, since progression is fun, but the more you have, the more 'grindy' it feels. I actually think that things like a potential Tournament mode could help with that even more than any specific change to ranked.
Tournament Mode
Although we don't learn too much from this, it's a way to get the conversation flowing. We encourage you to leave your comments below.
- Ben likes meeting opponents IRL and would like to make the Fireside Gatherings process better in the client to help those events.
- They know people want to be able to compete from their own homes, so any type of tournament needs to offer something more than what they already have available in-game.
- There are two implementations they've recently considered for how tournament mode could look.
- Put players into a bracket, wait for them to finish, go on to the next round. Rinse and repeat.
- Do something more like Arena or Heroic Brawl where it can run as an asynchronous event so people don't have to sit around.
- They're exploring some other ideas, but are very interested in what the community wants. They continue to look everywhere for these discussions.
Questions for the Community:
- What is fun about tournaments?
- What would a tournament mode look like for you in Hearthstone?
Quote from Ben BrodeSo, Tournament: I think there are a couple specific 'fantasies' related to playing in a Hearthstone tournament. Put another way: What is fun about tournaments? I think different players have different things that draw them. For me, for example, one of the things I enjoy is going to a venue, meeting my IRL opponent, and sharing a tense battle with him or her. Then I like to go over and check on my buds, to see how we're doing as a group against the crowd. We have a lot of people attending Fireside Gatherings each month (and running tournaments), it'd be nice if we could make that process better in the client.
There's also a strong desire to have the ability to compete for glory against other players from the comfort of your home. Hearthstone is by its nature a competitive 1v1 experience, so Tournaments would need to offer something above and beyond what we're already doing. If you want a "packaged" experience, where at the end you are crowned a winner, Heroic Brawl and Arena actually get part of the way there, although they don't feel like they fit the whole fantasy that people are missing.
There's, I think, two 'obvious' tournament mode implementations that we had considered recently.
(1) Pump a bunch of players into a bracket. Wait for all players to finish, then start the next round. Repeat until there is a winner. Upside: Clear tournament fantasy. Downside: Long waits between rounds. Need to clear a day to play, but you might be out in the first round (really variable time commitment)
(2) If you're familiar with the development of Arena (and if you're not, here's a very old video going through it ), it's basically a story of us trying to solve the problem from the first approach in an 8-player bracket. The result is a competitive, asynchronous event. Heroic Brawl is essentially the version of tournaments that can be done asynchronously online.
Now, I think 1 is only really ok for in-person events, and we already have 2 and for some reason it doesn't feel like it's scratching that "tournament" itch. So we've been exploring some crazier ideas. :)
We've been reading threads about 'tournament mode' here and other places (and in different languages) that range back years, scouring comments and trying to get a full picture of what we think the community (which isn't a single entity, but lots of individuals with different perspectives) will enjoy. I always enjoy reading and discussing what people want from tournaments in Hearthstone, so please keep it up!
Conversations and Announcements
Keep in mind that the goal behind posts like these are to start up conversations and to not make an announcement.
Quote from Ben BrodeAn aside: When I make comments like this, detailing our philosophy and confirming what is or is not in our plans, I often read responses like "pr talk" or "says nothing". We do have the option of only doing communication in the form of announcements, but we'd be communicating a lot less, and not here on reddit. I love talking with the community. I think it's healthy to vet our ideas and get feedback on them before we commit to any specific implementation. But I think the expectation needs to be that it's a conversation, and we're explaining where we're at and our thoughts, not announcing specific changes. Looking forward to reading your thoughts!
This is why I think they should add a draft like the draft simulator on tempostorm or an mtg style draft. It's close to constructed, but you probably won't get the busted combos.
a ban mode is pretty much everything hs needs imo atm. the problem isnt a "busted combo" (if you dont like them, play arena) , the problem i see are cards that are broken after an expention and cards that just annoy pretty much every player and blizzard dont want to change them (ether bc the card is fine but there is no counter at the moment [no non class healing against aggro pirate/just dirty rat vs rogue] or they "want to see how the meta forms" or just because they need time for the aproval of the ios/android app)
a ban mode would also add to the game. i dont care who decides what cards gets baned but a rotation every eg month would change the meta more frequently and maybe more interesting decks would be considert and refined.
I was merely offering it as a suggestion as another game mode. Busted combos was bad wording by me. I just meant another game mode that would be similar to constructed, but different than just straight net decking. I play a bit of both arena and ranked. I just don't play as much as I want or as much as I should.
Just thinking: How would work league system in HS. Let's assume:
* there are few leagues (eg. bronze / silver / golde / platinum / diamond / legend - to follow common pattern)
* You have few ranks in each league (5-10?, 4-5 stars each?)
* At the end of the month you can be promoted (if finished in top rank) or demoted (if finished in lowest rank)
Does it solves some / all of problems mentioned by Ben?
Why not try to solve the ranked grind and give a feeling of a tournament at the same time.
On the ladder give the option of a Bo5 (or Bo7) conquest mode. Lock in decks and bans at the start. It does not need to be separate from the regular ladder as I'm sure many people like the current system as well.
Then just win/lose stars based on the result and give 1 extra star to the winner. 1-3 lose 2 stars. 3-2 gain 2 stars. No winstreaks.
Compared to the current system up to rank 5 you gain some stars from winning matches and lose some from not counting win streaks. I would guess it may take a little longer to reach rank 5, but not by much. From rank 5 to Legend it will be slightly easier as you get the bonus star from winning matches, but you have to play a wider variety of decks. In Legend you can just use the current algorithm per game with a small bonus for the match win.
Of course I would still like a real tournament mode also, but playing ladder like this would be a major improvement for me.
I think you're close - bans and playing a "series" against the same opponent is the most glaring absence from ladder imo. Being forced to play (and play against) multiple classes would almost singlehandedly destroy the grind of facing six pirate warriors/quest rogues in a row.
This is probably the best idea i've seen to fix ranked. I'd love to play a Bo5, use different decks, target a specific deck, ban class, etc. Hope they get to implement and option like this.
Or a mode where you can get the golden heroes outside of ranked, that way i won't play a single game of ranked again.
really cool idea but im sure you have to separate the ladders because you could tech against some decks more aggressive and the would lose to you at a higher rate and you could dodge your counterdecks. (no warrior for freezemage ;) )
Here's what I would get excited about for Tournament Mode:
- Let me construct my best three decks.
- Let me play with other players using those decks until each deck loses (say, loses 3 times each).
- Let my wins climb a "tournament ladder" that clearly shows how many people are above me.
- Come up with cards that can only be earned in the arena, and let me craft them with tokens earned in the arena.
- Start with, say, 2 tournament cards per class, and add one with each set.
- Those cards should feel like "Tournament" cards, even if they could only be used in the Tournament.
- There could be a rule where you can only use 2 tournament cards in your tournament deck.
- You could have a tournament champion card that "equips" two cards when added to your deck (think like adapt, but you have to earn the each adaptation in the tournament).
TL;DR
- Use three constructed decks on a strict ladder
- Have special tournament-only cards
The new "tournament" mode should have a format similar to HCT and other online tournaments. The ability to play muliple decks and ban an opponents deck but also set up like arena; for continuous playing and the giving the ability to continue later on. The player would enter the tournament mode and the game would allow the player to create multiple decks, all being a different hero. (Just like heroic brawl) And then once the player has found an opponent to play. The game will display the opponents decks and the player can select which hero the opponent can't play. Then the game would bring up a screen like the "challenge a friend" screen where the play can choose what deck to play against the opponent. Then once the player would win or lose the match, the player would move on or be dropped out after losing three matches like arena. (The style of the match would depend on what kind of format the tournament is using)
1.Gold Tournament mode is a must! pay entrance fee get all money if you win
Ranked Tournament mode would be also good there is too much things to fix those issues but cards must be balanced each month
Ben, give me some of that blizzard money
This sounds like they'd really like to add a tournament mode, but are not happy with the ideas currently floating around. So we shouldn't expect it to come anytime soon and when it does hit, it'll be different from what we currently expect.
Ben's really a cool guy, i'm sure they'll think of a wise way to make a good tournament mode.
I like the idea of a 128 person tournament. You pay 150 gold (or some similar value of cash) to gain entrance. You can choose 3 different decks to bring to the tournament and can change decks after each game. You then play an opponent in a "best of 3 games" moves on format, that person then moves on to face another random winner from "round 1". This format continues until there is a final winner. The top 16 finishers get some kind of staggered payout of the total 19,200 gold plus a few other rewards. For example:
1st place: 3,500 gold reward (and 1 random gold legendary and 1 random gold epic)
2nd place: 2,700 gold reward (and 1 random gold legendary)
3rd place: 2,100 gold reward (and 1 random gold epic)
4-6: 1,400 gold reward (and 1 random gold rare)
7-9: 1100 gold reward (and 1 random gold common)
10-13: 700 gold reward
14-16: 500 gold reward
Something like this... Very similar to a poker tournament. Seems fairly simple to implicate and would be a lot of fun :)
This would make Hearthstone 10,000,000x better
In best case scenario this can drag players into a 7-hours tournament (7 rounds from 128 players to 1 winner, considering the fact that each round is done within an hour, which won't happen often in reality). Which is exactly what they tried to avoid making Arena mode, which allows you to step back and forth in and out. And your prize structure is exceeding amount of buy-in's which means it would never be the case in real world. IMHO 16 or even 8 players tournaments with higher buy-in (500 to 1000 gold) might work.
They can make it more time management friendly by doing what they did in the arena. you would only play against someone that has won round 1 in any tournament. similar to the heroic tavern brawl.
I also don't want to see really high buy-in's. but if they wanted to do a really high buy in they could have different buy-in levels say 200, 500, 1000. that way everyone gets to play and not just people that saved up thousands of gold.