Ben Brode on Ranked System Weakness, Tournament Mode, Community Conversations
Mr. Brode was out on reddit this morning to expand upon a recent tweet of his which stated there would be changes to seasonal grinding and that tournament mode would be a great addition to the game. We've got a recap of his grand wall o' text below, but we encourage you to read everything; It's good!
Keep in mind that text below is not an announcement of things to come, but instead, Ben explaining what they're thinking and trying to start a conversation.
Ranked System Weaknesses
Ben thinks there are four major weaknesses to the Ranked Play System. These weaknesses are believed to all be addressable, with the fourth weakness potentially being fixed by a "tournament mode" and not by a change to ranked itself.
The issue boils down to how progression works at every level of the ladder.
Quote from Ben Brode
- Top end players have to grind too much to get fun matches each month.
- Low end players have very little progression: just a few wins and then they get "stuck" at rank 20-17. This is the vast majority of active players.
- New players who enter ranked get crushed hard (after a pretty good experience in Casual).
- Doing the same thing over and over again each month feels like a 'grind'.
I think we can do all that (hopefully - this stuff is difficult to predict without live testing). The hardest to hit is number 4, since progression is fun, but the more you have, the more 'grindy' it feels. I actually think that things like a potential Tournament mode could help with that even more than any specific change to ranked.
Tournament Mode
Although we don't learn too much from this, it's a way to get the conversation flowing. We encourage you to leave your comments below.
- Ben likes meeting opponents IRL and would like to make the Fireside Gatherings process better in the client to help those events.
- They know people want to be able to compete from their own homes, so any type of tournament needs to offer something more than what they already have available in-game.
- There are two implementations they've recently considered for how tournament mode could look.
- Put players into a bracket, wait for them to finish, go on to the next round. Rinse and repeat.
- Do something more like Arena or Heroic Brawl where it can run as an asynchronous event so people don't have to sit around.
- They're exploring some other ideas, but are very interested in what the community wants. They continue to look everywhere for these discussions.
Questions for the Community:
- What is fun about tournaments?
- What would a tournament mode look like for you in Hearthstone?
Quote from Ben BrodeSo, Tournament: I think there are a couple specific 'fantasies' related to playing in a Hearthstone tournament. Put another way: What is fun about tournaments? I think different players have different things that draw them. For me, for example, one of the things I enjoy is going to a venue, meeting my IRL opponent, and sharing a tense battle with him or her. Then I like to go over and check on my buds, to see how we're doing as a group against the crowd. We have a lot of people attending Fireside Gatherings each month (and running tournaments), it'd be nice if we could make that process better in the client.
There's also a strong desire to have the ability to compete for glory against other players from the comfort of your home. Hearthstone is by its nature a competitive 1v1 experience, so Tournaments would need to offer something above and beyond what we're already doing. If you want a "packaged" experience, where at the end you are crowned a winner, Heroic Brawl and Arena actually get part of the way there, although they don't feel like they fit the whole fantasy that people are missing.
There's, I think, two 'obvious' tournament mode implementations that we had considered recently.
(1) Pump a bunch of players into a bracket. Wait for all players to finish, then start the next round. Repeat until there is a winner. Upside: Clear tournament fantasy. Downside: Long waits between rounds. Need to clear a day to play, but you might be out in the first round (really variable time commitment)
(2) If you're familiar with the development of Arena (and if you're not, here's a very old video going through it ), it's basically a story of us trying to solve the problem from the first approach in an 8-player bracket. The result is a competitive, asynchronous event. Heroic Brawl is essentially the version of tournaments that can be done asynchronously online.
Now, I think 1 is only really ok for in-person events, and we already have 2 and for some reason it doesn't feel like it's scratching that "tournament" itch. So we've been exploring some crazier ideas. :)
We've been reading threads about 'tournament mode' here and other places (and in different languages) that range back years, scouring comments and trying to get a full picture of what we think the community (which isn't a single entity, but lots of individuals with different perspectives) will enjoy. I always enjoy reading and discussing what people want from tournaments in Hearthstone, so please keep it up!
Conversations and Announcements
Keep in mind that the goal behind posts like these are to start up conversations and to not make an announcement.
Quote from Ben BrodeAn aside: When I make comments like this, detailing our philosophy and confirming what is or is not in our plans, I often read responses like "pr talk" or "says nothing". We do have the option of only doing communication in the form of announcements, but we'd be communicating a lot less, and not here on reddit. I love talking with the community. I think it's healthy to vet our ideas and get feedback on them before we commit to any specific implementation. But I think the expectation needs to be that it's a conversation, and we're explaining where we're at and our thoughts, not announcing specific changes. Looking forward to reading your thoughts!
The grindy aspect of Hearthstone is completely correct. I think the most successful comparable game in the market is Magic, I don't think there can be too much argument over that.
Right now, in theory, I could go from never playing Magic to Pro Tour Champion in about 40 matches. 6-8 rounds at a PPTQ, 9-12 rounds at a PTQ, and 17-20 Rounds at a PT. Now, obviously, I'm probably going to need a few extra practice games in between, but realistically, that's all it takes.
Hearthstone, not so much. Right now you have to play a few hundred just to get in the door to legend, then a few hundred (if not thousand) more to get in the top 100, and then do it 3 or 4 times to maybe get invited to one of the major events. That is painful, and completely uncompelling. We need a tournament mode that acts as the methodology to get you into the major tournament scene. You make that happen, and Hearthstone goes from goofy sideshow game on a phone to a real competitive game. Run it just like the majors, Conquest 3-4 heroes. Have PPTQ's (or the Hearthstone equivalent), winners invite into a PTQ that runs at a set time (maybe end of each month), and then winners of those get to play in a sponsored major. maybe add another layer just for giggles.
You will print money doing this. Literally just print money.
The Heroic Tavern Brawl would be better if it was turned into a tournament mode. Let people hold official and unofficial tournaments online with free or paid entry fees, and add prize pools like cards, gold, and card packs.
Your English is perfect friend! :)
Tournament mode (weekly):
Sunday : u can entry and choose time when u want play tournament every day like (time 1 7h- 10h) (time 2 10h-13h) (time 3 13h-16h) (time 4 16h-19h) and (time 5 19h-22h), this can be changed, but u got the point. In sunday you sumbit your decks.
Blizzard make two groups of 10 players (round robin), its 9 games for every player, bo3 .
for time1
monday 7h- 1. game
8h- 2. game
9h- 3. game
Tuesday 7h- 4. game
8h- 5. game
9h- 6. game
wendsday 7h- 7. game
8h- 8. game
9h- 9. game
first 4 players in both group going in next phase
Thursday final8 - 7h- BO5
quarter final - 9h-BO5
Friday semifinal-8h-BO7 or BO5
saturday final 8h- BO7 or BO5
and rewards ofc, (they can also make games for other places thats not problem, and then better place-better reward
Because playing many tournaments in one day will quickly get bored, playing just knock out is boring too.
Sry for my bad english, i hope i no have many mistakes.
It would be cool if the win streaks continued at rank 5 but were tougher to achieve.
For example:
Currently (between Ranks 25-6) if you win 3 games in a row you get an extra star.
For rank 5-Legend they could keep the win streaks but make it so that you have to win 4 in a row to gain the extra star.
I feel like this would be a fair compromise considering how difficult it is to win 4 games in a row at those ranks without making the legend push too "easy".
Daily login rewards just 10g or some dust would be cool
Gwent has really really impressed me, and does so many things better than Hearthstone.
1. Almost no RNG, most games hinge on a single play or misplay. Most RNG is draw RNG, and that can be heavily manipulated since.....
2. Putting cards onto your deck and knowing what you'd draw from the top is an important element of strategy, exploited by many cards.
3. Graveyard exists, can be looked at, can be summoned from, is important to some decks, etc.
4. Almost all games are the same length. There is no aggro where you lose by turn 5. There is no control where games last 30 minutes into fatigue. And thus, there is no cancer.
5. Reward system is based on winning rounds. Almost every game you win 1 of the 3 rounds, so by just playing the game you are rewarded even if you're not winning.
6. You get a choice of 3 cards on the 5th guaranteed rarity card in every pack, reducing pack RNG further.
The game is just masterfully done, and its praises are well deserved.
As much as i would love and enjoy participating in a regular fireside gathering the closest one is a 2hr drive one way. Not exactly what i want to do every week. Having something in game would definitly help vs having to submit screenshots for wins
Not everyone has time to be driving to a fireside gathering just to play a game of hearthstone.
why not make a game mode where winning doesn't have an impact in the game whatsover. how about a gamemode where you play to play the game and not playing to win? This would make each game more sportsmanlike conduct because the loser doesn't feel frustrated by losing to some stupid oppressive top tier net deck. There would be no mmr/ladder system and you don't get the usual 10 gold for each of 3 games you win. Instead you get to choose if you opponent gets 10 gold or not, if both players agree to giving each other 10 gold, both players get 10 gold. If 1 or both players don't agree to giving each other 10 gold, no one gets it. This environment would allow for wacky decks to see play because winning does nothing for you. You just play for fun.
That would be very difficult without making it too similar to casual. I think the biggest issue with casual is the random matchmaking, for example my friend who has been playing hearthstone for about 5 hours overall was matched against a golden Hunter.
When you first make an account, matchmaking even in casual is balanced and thats how it should be.
Playing but not to win doesn't make much sense. As long as there's a reward associated with the mode, plenty of people will play the fastest decks possible to grind for rewards. And the only way a deck can be described as "fast" is that it ends the match fast... by winning.
that's crazy talk, the casual matchmaking looks for 1) character level 2) overall level3) availability to match. there is no way someone playing for 5 hours would match a golden char, unless there was NO ONE OTHER THAN THAT GUY looking for a casual match
If I'm going out of my way to go play a game outside, I'd rather play a game that can only be played IRL. I have a tablet and all, but I'd just rather play something else.
Tournament mode needs to be best of 3. It would be a nice change of pace from the "oh, bad opening, I guess I lose". Sideboard would be awesome, at least as an experience to see if it works out, but I can see how this would probably be hard to implement/controversial.
Don't even think of making the entrance fee for tournament mode as ridiculously high as heroic brawl. You can even give the option of high stakes tournament, but don't make it the only value for an entry fee. Also don't do more heroic tavern brawls.
I've always wondered why they don't add a "low cost" game mode (could be casual only, no need for ladder) in HearthStone, where players could only build decks with basic / common / rare cards. It would be far more beginner-friendly. I wonder if the recent tavern brawl was a test for this kind of thing, though I don't think it should be limited to classic cards.
There should be a way to start the season in higher ranks... like 3 "play-off games". Every season you have to play 3 games to get a rank. You win all 3 games > get rank 10; win 2/3 games > rank 15; win 1/3 games > rank 20; win 0 games > rank 25.
Someting like this would be very helpfull and require less grinding to reach legend.
This actually seems like a great idea! I simply don't think rank 16 is high enough for someone who achieved legend the previous season (because lets be honest - the seasonal rewards are not worth it at all/way too low).
Maybe more like 5 games or so, I dont feel that 1 win should represent 5 ranks.
Tournaments should have customizable rules like banning certain cards, allowing from 1 to all classes to participate, maybe have a best 2 out of three to win with different classes so each would have 3 decks prepared .....it could be a bracket elimination from the beginning of each season including all players (with different levels) or maybe even a group stage
Ben we need more rap perfomances in near future..Focus on that and grind some rhymes for your people!
New in-game music!