Hearthpwn

Quote from Banquetto »

Quote from BeerLeague »

RNG is an absolutely terrible way to balance card power. It is frustrating to players to lose games based on a coin flip and winning on those plays does not make you feel like you have really mastered the game, rather is just makes you feel lucky. 

As I said before, banning is not the correct answer as many of the RNG heavy cards are required to play certain decks or even certain classes. Instead of banning these cards flat out need to be reworked to eliminate the RNG element that they possess.

You might not like the amount of randomness inherent in some Hearthstone cards.

But the fact is, it was a very deliberate game design decision intended to counterbalance the fact that Hearthstone's mana system removed a large element of randomness inherent in other games (Magic, of course, being the elephant in the room).

I have seen statements from Blizzard designers that Hearthstone wasn't random enough to provide the experience people wanted from a card game, hence the number of cards with RNG effects.

It is not in place to counter balance anything, it is bad design. HS has the same type of RNG that Magic has, but it has another layer in card effect RNG that Magic lacks, and for good reason. 

I would love to see Blizzard posts where people are clamoring for more RNG, the only thing I see here, on their official forums and a few other websites is people complaining non-stop about card effect RNG. 

Quote from modded »

 

Spread != Recoil. Pros learn the recoil patterns. The only way to "mitigate" spread is to get closer/crouch/stop moving.

Your comparison statement is also laughable. I simply used CS as an example of a highly competitive that still has some aspect of RNG.

I agree and disagree on the RNG balance part. Maybe with Rag, it's too much of a coin flip (not that I see him getting changed). Now stuff like avenging wrath is fine, as it rolls 8 times, making it somewhat consistent. Deadly shot is fine, it can be really bad, or really good, just like it should be for that cost.

Sure RNG is not the most competitive thing out there, but it has it's place. It allows many concepts like Brawl to exist. Sure the lucky keep Rag and clear 7 minions is annoying, but that's a fringe case, it otherwise is quite balanced. Now the whole coin flip with 2 minions is sure be frustrating, but it's forgivable due to how it keeps powerful effects in check. If you don't like it, then don't run RNG minions. If you're going to be pissed that RNG gave then a win (rag snipe), then CCGs are not for you. Cuz I'm pissed that the shaman I'm facing topdecked reincarnate to reactivate that earth  elemental I just silenced so I can combo. He's prolly pissed that I drew 2x wild growth + 2x savage roar + innervate + fon and that I'm about to super combo on turn 8.

How is my comparison any different? You just admitted that spread can be mitigated in in CS, it is not as if you pull the trigger standing still and the bullet flies where it will. The baseball companion was spot on. Everything in life has RNG if you want to define it as such, but the level of RNG in HS is far and above what almost any other competitive game contains.  

The problem with RNG in this game, or any CCG/TCG for that matter, is that it takes no skill. Personally, I have no interest in watching players play games that are nearly 100% decided on the coin flip of RNG which happens far too often in HS. Now, RNG is not the only thing causing this problem: small card pool, low deck size, limited draw power, no deck searching, no use of sideboard, limited resource system etc. are all causing problems as well. Even with that said though, the OP did have a good point. RNG is not entertaining in the long run and will need to be curbed if HS wants to take the throne as the top CCG (and why the hell wouldnt they want to?) and also become a serious Esport. 

However, as I said before, banning is not the way to go. Card modification and future design changes to RNG type cards are what will make this game stay on top for the long haul. 

Quote from Horrible76 »

He's an 8 mana Legendary.  He's  SUPPOSED to be game changing.  That's the whole point.

The only concern for tournament organizers should be whether or not he's broken, and there is no evidence that he is.

The fact that he is RNG is irrelevant. 

Also not a good argument. You can not just say that a card needs to be powerful because it is a legendary.

As to the second point, the OP did bring up evidence that he is a game-changingly broken card. This is all due to his RNG, it has nothing to do with the power level of the card. 

Quote from modded »

So would you rather it not be an RNG effect? That reminds me of Tinkmaster Overspark. Oh wait.

RNG is used to balance out powerful cards. Sure, sometimes RNG will roll in your favor. But it's no more random than drawing. It's like the Priest who got Circle of Healing in the Mulligan and then top decks Auchenai Soulpriest on turn 4 or 5 vs Zoo. It was an act of RNG that they drew it, and absolutely game changing. Oh, no comparison? It's RNG either way.

But seriously, RNG has it's place. Sure, it can make some wins/losses feel cheap, but that is simply an unavoidable consequence of using RNG to balance cards. Heck, y'all want to ban Lightning Storm next? Knife Juggler? How about Avenging Wrath? RNG is unavoidable. Heck, imagine if all guns has 0 spread in CS:GO or any other competitive FPS.

That being said, I do think that Ragnaros the Firelord is at the peak of the amount of power that can be given to a random effect, and I am perfectly fine with the way he is (he is a Legendary after all!).

RNG is an absolutely terrible way to balance card power. It is frustrating to players to lose games based on a coin flip and winning on those plays does not make you feel like you have really mastered the game, rather is just makes you feel lucky. 

As I said before, banning is not the correct answer as many of the RNG heavy cards are required to play certain decks or even certain classes. Instead of banning these cards flat out need to be reworked to eliminate the RNG element that they possess. In most cases just recosting the card and/or lowering/raising the damage amount and allowing the player to direct the damage would fix the cards. The only ones that come to my mind that would need slightly more tweaking would be Ysera, Brawl and Avenging Wrath (just need to change it from randomly to split evenly).

To add to this, your comparison with CS is laughable. Spread in CS is learn-able and can be mitigated by the player. In fact it is what separates good players from bad players. Your argument would be exactly the same as if I said, "the only reason why I am not a pro baseball player is because of bad RNG when I throw/hit the ball" that is ludicrous when you think about it.

RNG on cards in Hearthstone is not learnable. For every situation where you play Rag optimally on a clean board and let him hit face for 8, there will be another where he has a 10-20% chance to win or lose you the game based on where he decided to blast his damage. 

I agree with the OP to an extent. I don't think that it needs to be banned, but I think every RNG card needs to be changed or re-costed in some fashion if this game ever wants to be taken seriously as an Esport or CCG in general. 

I've played quite a few card games and CCGs in my time and all of them have RNG, but the RNG is limited to draw usually, or perhaps a dice roll. Also, most games have ways to mitigate the RNG though cards that allow you to search your deck for other cards, play sideboard cards, modify dice rolls, replace rolls etc. Hearthstone (atm) has no way to mitigate the effect of RNG and its RNG is unique to CCGs (in a bad way IMO). The other problem of Hearthstone (that also comes from RNG) is how often a single card at the right time can decide the outcome of the game. Almost every game of Hearthstone I can point to one turn where either I have the card that snowballs me to victory, do not have the card and inevitably lose or the same situation happens for my opponent. I have played 3 card games at a highly competitive level, Magic (won a few regionals), SWCCG (world champion) and LOTRCCG (regionals again) and none had this level of make or break play, I recorded my plays in all of those games (and have been doing so in HS as well) and very rarely did one single play influence the outcome of the game as much as it does in HS. This also needs to get tuned for the game to become truly competitive. 

Back to the OP and RNG, I believe that all of these cards need a cost or effect adjustment. I wont get into every card here but Rag should retain his 8 cost, give him a 6/6 body and allow him to direct 5 damage to the target of your choosing at the end of your turn. Bam, card is fixed. It is still playable, but wont decide games by RNG alone. Cards like Brawl, Deadly shot, Knife Juggler, Ysera etc all would need similar treatment

Made legendary this season playing 142 games. Was at about a 60% win rate w/ miracle until I switched it up for control war which has averaged a ridiculous 80%+ win rate for me this season. Did have a really nice streak from rank 7 - legendary though, thank you everyone for playing only hunter and zoo :p 

Totally depends on the curve of the two decks. If they have a similar curve, player 2 will win every time. 

Player One could easily stack Player Two's deck with nothing but cards costing 6+ mana and give himself a nice balanced early game curve and no amount of RNG would make player two win. 

Yeti in ever single situation. Card draw is always card draw, yeti will almost always draw the opponent into an unfavourable play. 

Of the list you provided, I would say Alex as she gives you the largest power spike out of all of them and really can not be replaced. 

My order would be:

Alex > Sylvanas > Baron > Cairne > TBK 

In control warrior you will often be doing zero, or almost zero, damage until turn 8 or so. The 15 damage and removal soak that Alex gives you is irreplaceable.

Sylvanas will also draw a ton of hard removal and often will result in the opponent burning cards to get rid of her, or playing her + brawl is often a game winner. 

Baron is also ridiculous in the current meta. Great against any aggro deck, all hunter decks and gives you another pseudo board clear.

Cairne, while good and worth including, has replacement level rares in the current meta.

TBK - IMO is not worth including now as Lotheb/Death's Bite took his place. Control Warrior has more than enough removal without him. 

Control war should be absolutely ravaging hunter, if you are losing anywhere close to 50% of those games you need to rethink your strategy. 

The current hunter meta allowed me to easily streak from 7-legendary in a single night. Played against nothing but hunter, zoo and paladin. 

Don't feel bad, yesterday I had a priest thoughtsteal, in the same game versus my control war, the following:

2x Rag

2x Gromm

Needless to say I lost

Control Warrior has been doing work for me lately against Hunter. Currently above 75% win rate against mid range hunter and 60% on trap hunter. Does really well against most other decks in the meta as well except for super late game control priest. 

Miracle has also been going nicely against hunter, but it has a rough time against a few other decks in the current meta in the higher ranks. 

Freeze Mage is amazing for taking down all of the bosses, including him. Don't need too much RNG either.