This is no argument. Played winrate is influenced by people playing cards when they already won the game. Example: I could play whisp in my deck and show you proof for it having a 100% played winrate just by always dropping it with lethal on board
Your lack of understanding isn’t a counter argument. Tick is never played before turn 8, and likely not often played before turn 10, depending on the matchup, so a 70%+ win rate when played is very telling of the deck’s overall performance in control matchups. If you can’t make that leap in logic I don’t know what to tell you. If you think a 6 mana 8/8 that burns 5 cards from your opponent’s deck is no good then I think that says all we need to know about your grasp of the game. Jaraxxus and tick are both a problem if other control decks are to have a chance in this meta. That’s not debatable.
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
LoL, against aggro you don't need the combo, just survive and you automatically win
His list doesn’t seem to have much in the way of control though, which is why I’m curious
Also, as an added bonus I will add a very nice card I've found pretty useful agains warlocks and paladins: the new troll that swap minion on board with one in hand, can't remember the name.
It silences paladins librams and also he pulled out multiple times a Tickatus, you always know they have in hand when they do the annkward turn 7 play to corrupt it,
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
Well written and I agree, Shadow Hunter Vol'jin has a lot of potential for trying to mess up Tick Lock and others.
However, I just hit 28-13 with Silas Warrior against Tick Lock. It's not that hopeless a match. It's my hope that by the end of this meta, I will finally have enough individual stats that it actually IS a relevant sample size, at which point we can finally draw some conclusions.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
You're right, 72% played winrate is not sooo high....
A card could have a 100% winrate when played and still be garbage in any meta.
I dislike the design behind Tick, I really do, but his power level is always going to be determined by the speed in which other decks can kill you. If decks, control included, have early win conditions the current Tick lists are beatable.
But his win rates are relevant to discussion. Being simply a late game card with a win rate after play of over 70% indicates that warlock late game play is too effective. A control deck with an early win condition is not a control deck. Mecha’thun did have a similar issue, but given that the card had such strict requirements made it more fair for the most part, so the comparison isn’t that good.
Drawn WR is significantly more relevant than played WR. Malygos (original), Mecha'thun and similar are 100% played WR (or close enough). What's Tick's drawn WR?
For the conversation at hand I’d say played win rate is better. We’re talking about the control matchup specifically and he’s a late game card. It doesn’t really matter if he was drawn, just that a game went long enough for him to be played.
If there is a relevant difference between combo and control with regards to this particular topic, I'm interested. I don't really think that people are losing to me because they don't understand the matchup, though. I suppose it's possible, but against control decks who draw lots of cards, the first priority of Tick Lock is to get Tickatus online and try to make sure you have enough time to mill as many cards as possible. It's been my experience that no one is holding Tickatus against me, and they obviously know I don't have C'thun in my deck due to the lack of animation of the 4 pieces splitting at the beginning of the game.
Control and combo decks can be similar simply because a combo deck needs to survive to pull off its combo, a good example would be the some of the OTK Paladin decks that used Shirvalah or the DK hero power. Some combo decks have so much draw that they have no semblance of control to them, like old Hakkar druid or Nomi decks. The real defining feature of most combo decks is a multi card high burst damage combo, like yours. I’d argue throwing C’Thun in the deck doesn’t make it a combo deck because it’s simply one card and a win condition when you need one, whereas the main goal of the deck is to starve your opponent of resources. Looking at your decklist the objective is to gain armor and slam 1 minion after you give it to your opponent. That’s a combo. And I’d still wager people have no clue what they’re playing against when you queue up against them. As I said that deck doesn’t exist on hsreply right now, which is a very popular source of deck information. From personal experience not knowing what your opponent playing can be quite disorienting. But now we’re delving into personal opinion. At any rate I applaud you going against the grain with deck choice.
Fair enough. I can go with that distinction.
I thought C'thun Warrior pretty much had to use him to win the game, but I suppose just adding the four cards gives you a potential fatigue win (the ultimate Chad win in control matchups) without actually playing him.
He’s also 3 removal tools and a 6/6 taunt too which is nice for control.
You're right, 72% played winrate is not sooo high....
A card could have a 100% winrate when played and still be garbage in any meta.
I dislike the design behind Tick, I really do, but his power level is always going to be determined by the speed in which other decks can kill you. If decks, control included, have early win conditions the current Tick lists are beatable.
But his win rates are relevant to discussion. Being simply a late game card with a win rate after play of over 70% indicates that warlock late game play is too effective. A control deck with an early win condition is not a control deck. Mecha’thun did have a similar issue, but given that the card had such strict requirements made it more fair for the most part, so the comparison isn’t that good.
If there is a relevant difference between combo and control with regards to this particular topic, I'm interested. I don't really think that people are losing to me because they don't understand the matchup, though. I suppose it's possible, but against control decks who draw lots of cards, the first priority of Tick Lock is to get Tickatus online and try to make sure you have enough time to mill as many cards as possible. It's been my experience that no one is holding Tickatus against me, and they obviously know I don't have C'thun in my deck due to the lack of animation of the 4 pieces splitting at the beginning of the game.
Control and combo decks can be similar simply because a combo deck needs to survive to pull off its combo, a good example would be the some of the OTK Paladin decks that used Shirvalah or the DK hero power. Some combo decks have so much draw that they have no semblance of control to them, like old Hakkar druid or Nomi decks. The real defining feature of most combo decks is a multi card high burst damage combo, like yours. I’d argue throwing C’Thun in the deck doesn’t make it a combo deck because it’s simply one card and a win condition when you need one, whereas the main goal of the deck is to starve your opponent of resources. Looking at your decklist the objective is to gain armor and slam 1 minion after you give it to your opponent. That’s a combo. And I’d still wager people have no clue what they’re playing against when you queue up against them. As I said that deck doesn’t exist on hsreply right now, which is a very popular source of deck information. From personal experience not knowing what your opponent playing can be quite disorienting. But now we’re delving into personal opinion. At any rate I applaud you going against the grain with deck choice.
I don't see how the non-C'thun version of control warrior has much to worry about with Tickatus.
But, if you're having a different experience, just play the Silas/Ashtongue win condition. Their armor vendors will help you get there. And yes, I'm aware you're totally dependent on drawing Silas, just as they are totally dependent on drawing Tickatus.
The reality of the matchup is warrior will come out over 50%.
damn this dude is in every thread speaking nonsense. Just a simple internet troll
No he actually believes what he’s saying but he also doesn’t understand the difference between a combo deck and a control deck.
20-11 against Tick lock with Silas. And counting . . .
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
Just throwing this out there though, what you describe is a combo deck and not a control deck. Combo decks generally are good against control.
20-11 against Tick lock with Silas. And counting . . .
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
Also, everybody here seems to be under the impression that every Control Warrior game would be versus Warlock. Even if Control Warrior's matchup against Controllock is bad, there's still 9 classes OTHER than Warlock that exist and see some amount of play. "Control can't exist if Tickatus exists" is an almost insane - absolutist - statement that goes contrary to how card games even work. A deck being the best of its kind doesn't preclude other decks of its kind from existing. And the amount of nuance that could go into playing the Control Warrior mirror, or against any other class (nuance which I thought Control players would be excited about since they get to wrinkle their brains while they play Hearthstone) is totally lost because Tickatus has everybody so scared to even consider other control options.
Even if a change in approach is required to deal with Tickatus, which I've already talked about, it wouldn't be a variant on the deck itself, it would just be how you play the matchup. Every matchup requires a different approach for most decks.
If anything, and people have mentioned this already, Lord Juraxxus is the far bigger issue for Control matchups. 2 mana for a 6/6 every turn is a far larger issue than Tick could impose, one that Warrior doesn't have the card generation to deal with for long if the game hits fatigue. Maybe we'll get some Dead Man's Hand retrain or something in the mini set, Blizzard is more aware than we think of things like this, they're just never preemptive.
It’s not that it can’t exist, it’s that it can’t be very competitive. There’s always fringe decks on ladder, that’s a given. It doesn’t mean they’re relevant or good. The moment a control deck gets played a reasonable amount, control lock will pop up to slap it down. That’s what we mean by oppressive.
Your lack of understanding isn’t a counter argument. Tick is never played before turn 8, and likely not often played before turn 10, depending on the matchup, so a 70%+ win rate when played is very telling of the deck’s overall performance in control matchups. If you can’t make that leap in logic I don’t know what to tell you. If you think a 6 mana 8/8 that burns 5 cards from your opponent’s deck is no good then I think that says all we need to know about your grasp of the game. Jaraxxus and tick are both a problem if other control decks are to have a chance in this meta. That’s not debatable.
His list doesn’t seem to have much in the way of control though, which is why I’m curious
I was thinking about this myself, unfortunately that card isn’t super good in many other matchups.
How does your deck fair against, well everything else. It’s gotta be hard to maintain that armor level against aggro and mid range decks. Do you have a secondary win condition?
For the conversation at hand I’d say played win rate is better. We’re talking about the control matchup specifically and he’s a late game card. It doesn’t really matter if he was drawn, just that a game went long enough for him to be played.
He’s also 3 removal tools and a 6/6 taunt too which is nice for control.
But his win rates are relevant to discussion. Being simply a late game card with a win rate after play of over 70% indicates that warlock late game play is too effective. A control deck with an early win condition is not a control deck. Mecha’thun did have a similar issue, but given that the card had such strict requirements made it more fair for the most part, so the comparison isn’t that good.
Control and combo decks can be similar simply because a combo deck needs to survive to pull off its combo, a good example would be the some of the OTK Paladin decks that used Shirvalah or the DK hero power. Some combo decks have so much draw that they have no semblance of control to them, like old Hakkar druid or Nomi decks. The real defining feature of most combo decks is a multi card high burst damage combo, like yours. I’d argue throwing C’Thun in the deck doesn’t make it a combo deck because it’s simply one card and a win condition when you need one, whereas the main goal of the deck is to starve your opponent of resources. Looking at your decklist the objective is to gain armor and slam 1 minion after you give it to your opponent. That’s a combo. And I’d still wager people have no clue what they’re playing against when you queue up against them. As I said that deck doesn’t exist on hsreply right now, which is a very popular source of deck information. From personal experience not knowing what your opponent playing can be quite disorienting. But now we’re delving into personal opinion. At any rate I applaud you going against the grain with deck choice.
No he actually believes what he’s saying but he also doesn’t understand the difference between a combo deck and a control deck.
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
Just throwing this out there though, what you describe is a combo deck and not a control deck. Combo decks generally are good against control.
Can’t even find Silas Warrior on HS replay. The only deck on HS replay that uses Silas as far as I can tell is 1 version of control lock. It’s entirely possible your success is from people not knowing what they’re playing against. Kudos for that at the very least, but without more widespread data it’s hard to say with any certainty.
It’s not that it can’t exist, it’s that it can’t be very competitive. There’s always fringe decks on ladder, that’s a given. It doesn’t mean they’re relevant or good. The moment a control deck gets played a reasonable amount, control lock will pop up to slap it down. That’s what we mean by oppressive.
Control lock will suppress any other control deck. There’s a reason warrior isn’t prevalent on ladder right now