In all fairness Gang Up is a terrible card, it's just a terrible card that has found a "degenerate" purpose in the same way Illusions of Grandeur/Donate did in Magic. I haven't seen a single copy of the card in any deck other than Fatigue Rogue, but that said I don't think judging a card on the basis of it being a linear combo piece is necessarily a standard we should adopt because "flavour of the month" decks come and go. If anything, I'm really happy that the first wing of BRM has given so much value and diversity to the players of the game, that's essentially two combo decks that cost only a handful of dust to craft that can move the F2P players away from flooding the metagame with Face Hunter and Mech Mage.
I can kind of understand OP's view point of the mechanic feeling "uninteractive" and "unfair," as I've killed a lot of Priests from 30 health with it while burning his cards, Sapping his threats and Vanishing his board to the point where it has that "Freeze Mage" feel to it. But I don't think the deck is "over powered" at all, and while some decks will have a polarizing match up against it other decks will make use of the "draw your deck" mechanic to just assemble their own OTK combos and win - I've been OTKed by Prophet Vellen, Mind Blast, Smite or Faceless Manipulator, Arcane Golen, Power Overwhelming or Force/Roar several times. I think diversity overall in a CCG has to be respected, even if some playstyles don't necessarily fit your pre-conception of how the game should be played. Technically speaking, the game is still much more interactive than Magic is just because of the low number of card types that are all removable via the combat phase. I mean if you think this stuff is annoying, try playing against Storm or Dredge in Magic ... you have no idea.
Every class doesn't have the versatility of the Druid. Mage, Druid, Rogue and Hunter generally have the upper hand every meta. I like playing priest and my deck usually relies on card draw. the card is OP. If there were a way to combat it, it would be understandable.
Lol, I don't think playing the worst class against mill makes the card OP, it just makes your perspective biased because you can't win with the deck you want to play against it - and even then Prophet Velen is probably an answer to it because they'll never see it comming unless they mill a Mind Blast.
i dont get it why people crying over new decks. its always the same decks out there on the ladder, you should be happy some people try new stuff like mill rogue, new warrior and whatnot so we have some variation.
to lay some sarcasm in, for many it isn't that the decks are the same or that the game is too fast/slow or X class is too strong.
It's that the deck THEY want to play doesn't win all of the games they play. THAT is the problem that has to be fixed.
No deck can win every game even if its the most viable deck and face a good matchups, still R.N.G can do its things, i'm happy that mill rouge is not that popular nor op and i win 3 games against them today because they rely heavily in mulligan Coldlight Oracle and if they didn't get it early then it will be near impossible for them to win, rushing them and spending all mana as possible and the Emperor Thaurissan help a lot.
I don't think mill will be OP. Right now they are focused HEAVILY on the mill making them rather gimmicky. I'm hoping that's due to them being unrefined. More proper iterations will be like deathrattle priest was: a deck that can have a doomsday start but will have a more regular deck if it doesn't work out. Perhaps a more Tempo setup with Gang up having the option of being an odd sort of Thoughtsteal. They already figured out how to do a Healarogue setup for anti-aggro. Handlock did so well for so long because it wasn't dead in the water if it doesn't get it's giants. Rogue needs their mill deck to operate in that way. And I think it can. It won't be as "OMG OP INSTALOOSS" as the current look, but it'll be a ton more stable and long term viable.
I don't think mill has the ability to be another deck, at most you might be able to play a Legendary that you can use with Gang Up and/or Shadowstep but considering how the deck is beholden to Vanish at most all it can have is another synergistic combo finisher. I'm really hoping tho' that this is the deck for Blackrock Skulker and cutting some of the more spell based removal will open some slots up.
I understand the issue of interactivity, and it is a problem to a degree. But in terms of the actual viability of a mill deck at the top levels of the game, it will take some work before we see that. People seem to feel that there's a good chance this will become even more than top tier and move into the realm of oppressive. I seriously doubt that will happen, for a variety of reasons.
I think the feeling that it is super powerful comes from the fact that when you lose, it tends to feel like there's nothing you could have done. It gives you this sense that the deck is much more powerful than it actually is. Try playing ten games in a row against mill rogue. You will feel helpless some number of those games. Others, you'll win and it will feel like they never did anything. That's what happens with these kinds of strategies a lot of the time.
As for mill as a strategy, it suffers from one major drawback, which is that until it kills you it doesn't do anything. it's very much all or nothing in that way. In Hearthstone, thanks to hand size having a max and the way bouncing minions to a full hand works, this isn't as big of a problem as it is in some games. I actually think those factors make mill in Hearthstone a lot more fun to play against than in other games. Most of the time in say, MTG, against a mill deck you don't really alter your play. In Hearthstone you alter your play immediately when you know you're up against mill. You have to come up with a new plan, watch what order you play your minions in, how you spend your mana, etc. In that sense, there is interaction, though I get that it's not the "throw minions at each other" interaction people like.
I have been playing this game regularly for 5 months now , but i find the idea of milling itself is not right and deter the interactive play , especially making a whole deck around it. I find face Hunters and mech mage may be annoying but you can build a deck to counter them and use your cards strategically to win against them , but facing a mill rouge is like playing with lesser number of cards,sure mill rouge will has its weaknesses but the idea of milling itself doesn't feel right to me
You can counter it, you just need a fast agro deck, like this you vomit your hand faster than he can burn it.
I think the feeling that it is super powerful comes from the fact that when you lose, it tends to feel like there's nothing you could have done. It gives you this sense that the deck is much more powerful than it actually is. Try playing ten games in a row against mill rogue. You will feel helpless some number of those games. Others, you'll win and it will feel like they never did anything. That's what happens with these kinds of strategies a lot of the time.
I like that we might have a new viable archtype, but oh god, yes, a million times that statement. I've been getting wrecked on my Midrange Shaman (which has a higher curve, so Mill seems to do really well against it) and every time I lose it sucks so hard. It feels like there is nothing I could have done. The Coldlight + Shadowstep + Coldlight + Sap to destroy your Fire Elemental makes me want to rage!
I think the feeling that it is super powerful comes from the fact that when you lose, it tends to feel like there's nothing you could have done. It gives you this sense that the deck is much more powerful than it actually is. Try playing ten games in a row against mill rogue. You will feel helpless some number of those games. Others, you'll win and it will feel like they never did anything. That's what happens with these kinds of strategies a lot of the time.
I like that we might have a new viable archtype, but oh god, yes, a million times that statement. I've been getting wrecked on my Midrange Shaman (which has a higher curve, so Mill seems to do really well against it) and every time I lose it sucks so hard. It feels like there is nothing I could have done. The Coldlight + Shadowstep + Coldlight + Sap to destroy your Fire Elemental makes me want to rage!
That's because the cause and effect of such a deck is delayed. If you drop a Rag and it gets BGHed, you can see "Ok I dropped a Rag now, it got BGHed.. so I probably shouldn't have dropped the rag now without expecting a response next turn.
Combo decks though, delay that. You could've put pressure on the rogue at turn 3 but opted for a setup play instead. It SEEMS like it works out since you got no direct response (no 500 minions hitting your face) and now you have the setup you want. Everything seems great even though, honestly, everything is very very wrong. By the time you get punished for it (once the coldlights show up) it's several turns later. Thus it feels like you were doing well then BAM, you lost.
In truth, the trick is to change what you consider a good or bad response. For aggro decks, you want them to NOT hit you: to sit around and do nothing. That's Good. For combo, though, you want the reverse. you WANT them to have to spend cards. You WANT them to have to use removal. Every turn when it's silent is bad. Thus when it's turn 3 and your rogue opponent just daggers and passes, you should be going "#*($# I'm messing up. I should've put more pressure!
As far as wht to do about it: ...not much really. this effect is the nature of combo/midrange decks. Eliminating the deck type will result in a massive aggro game (see HS during deathrattle era). Combo, mill, and the other types are needed parts of the game. We just have to think more deeply and on how the entire game went and beyond 2 turns ahead/behind of where we are at the moment.
edit: this is why Tempo works well against mill btw. When mill has their setup cards (coldlight, gangup, ext.) they want enough peace to use those cards at the right time. When they have their removal cards, they to stall the game until they get their setup cards.
When you're always throwing threats at them, time is what they don't have. They are forced to throw their removal cards and, thus, drain themselves dry. If they have their setup instead, they are forced to use those at a bad time just to keep alive. Combo style decks want to throw enough removal to shut you up then use the extra time to build up. If you never shut up, they can't set up and all that's left is death.
In all fairness Gang Up is a terrible card, it's just a terrible card that has found a "degenerate" purpose in the same way Illusions of Grandeur/Donate did in Magic. I haven't seen a single copy of the card in any deck other than Fatigue Rogue, but that said I don't think judging a card on the basis of it being a linear combo piece is necessarily a standard we should adopt because "flavour of the month" decks come and go. If anything, I'm really happy that the first wing of BRM has given so much value and diversity to the players of the game, that's essentially two combo decks that cost only a handful of dust to craft that can move the F2P players away from flooding the metagame with Face Hunter and Mech Mage.
I can kind of understand OP's view point of the mechanic feeling "uninteractive" and "unfair," as I've killed a lot of Priests from 30 health with it while burning his cards, Sapping his threats and Vanishing his board to the point where it has that "Freeze Mage" feel to it. But I don't think the deck is "over powered" at all, and while some decks will have a polarizing match up against it other decks will make use of the "draw your deck" mechanic to just assemble their own OTK combos and win - I've been OTKed by Prophet Vellen, Mind Blast, Smite or Faceless Manipulator, Arcane Golen, Power Overwhelming or Force/Roar several times. I think diversity overall in a CCG has to be respected, even if some playstyles don't necessarily fit your pre-conception of how the game should be played. Technically speaking, the game is still much more interactive than Magic is just because of the low number of card types that are all removable via the combat phase. I mean if you think this stuff is annoying, try playing against Storm or Dredge in Magic ... you have no idea.
Every class doesn't have the versatility of the Druid. Mage, Druid, Rogue and Hunter generally have the upper hand every meta. I like playing priest and my deck usually relies on card draw. the card is OP. If there were a way to combat it, it would be understandable.
Lol, I don't think playing the worst class against mill makes the card OP, it just makes your perspective biased because you can't win with the deck you want to play against it - and even then Prophet Velen is probably an answer to it because they'll never see it comming unless they mill a Mind Blast.
I don't think mill will be OP. Right now they are focused HEAVILY on the mill making them rather gimmicky. I'm hoping that's due to them being unrefined. More proper iterations will be like deathrattle priest was: a deck that can have a doomsday start but will have a more regular deck if it doesn't work out. Perhaps a more Tempo setup with Gang up having the option of being an odd sort of Thoughtsteal. They already figured out how to do a Healarogue setup for anti-aggro. Handlock did so well for so long because it wasn't dead in the water if it doesn't get it's giants. Rogue needs their mill deck to operate in that way. And I think it can. It won't be as "OMG OP INSTALOOSS" as the current look, but it'll be a ton more stable and long term viable.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I don't think mill has the ability to be another deck, at most you might be able to play a Legendary that you can use with Gang Up and/or Shadowstep but considering how the deck is beholden to Vanish at most all it can have is another synergistic combo finisher. I'm really hoping tho' that this is the deck for Blackrock Skulker and cutting some of the more spell based removal will open some slots up.
There is a lot more things out there that are a lot less fun to play against than mill...
DJ
I understand the issue of interactivity, and it is a problem to a degree. But in terms of the actual viability of a mill deck at the top levels of the game, it will take some work before we see that. People seem to feel that there's a good chance this will become even more than top tier and move into the realm of oppressive. I seriously doubt that will happen, for a variety of reasons.
I think the feeling that it is super powerful comes from the fact that when you lose, it tends to feel like there's nothing you could have done. It gives you this sense that the deck is much more powerful than it actually is. Try playing ten games in a row against mill rogue. You will feel helpless some number of those games. Others, you'll win and it will feel like they never did anything. That's what happens with these kinds of strategies a lot of the time.
As for mill as a strategy, it suffers from one major drawback, which is that until it kills you it doesn't do anything. it's very much all or nothing in that way. In Hearthstone, thanks to hand size having a max and the way bouncing minions to a full hand works, this isn't as big of a problem as it is in some games. I actually think those factors make mill in Hearthstone a lot more fun to play against than in other games. Most of the time in say, MTG, against a mill deck you don't really alter your play. In Hearthstone you alter your play immediately when you know you're up against mill. You have to come up with a new plan, watch what order you play your minions in, how you spend your mana, etc. In that sense, there is interaction, though I get that it's not the "throw minions at each other" interaction people like.
Nothing doing, traveler.
So what's the verdict here? Is anyone still playing the deck with success?
You can counter it, you just need a fast agro deck, like this you vomit your hand faster than he can burn it.
I like that we might have a new viable archtype, but oh god, yes, a million times that statement. I've been getting wrecked on my Midrange Shaman (which has a higher curve, so Mill seems to do really well against it) and every time I lose it sucks so hard. It feels like there is nothing I could have done. The Coldlight + Shadowstep + Coldlight + Sap to destroy your Fire Elemental makes me want to rage!
That's because the cause and effect of such a deck is delayed. If you drop a Rag and it gets BGHed, you can see "Ok I dropped a Rag now, it got BGHed.. so I probably shouldn't have dropped the rag now without expecting a response next turn.
Combo decks though, delay that. You could've put pressure on the rogue at turn 3 but opted for a setup play instead. It SEEMS like it works out since you got no direct response (no 500 minions hitting your face) and now you have the setup you want. Everything seems great even though, honestly, everything is very very wrong. By the time you get punished for it (once the coldlights show up) it's several turns later. Thus it feels like you were doing well then BAM, you lost.
In truth, the trick is to change what you consider a good or bad response. For aggro decks, you want them to NOT hit you: to sit around and do nothing. That's Good. For combo, though, you want the reverse. you WANT them to have to spend cards. You WANT them to have to use removal. Every turn when it's silent is bad. Thus when it's turn 3 and your rogue opponent just daggers and passes, you should be going "#*($# I'm messing up. I should've put more pressure!
As far as wht to do about it: ...not much really. this effect is the nature of combo/midrange decks. Eliminating the deck type will result in a massive aggro game (see HS during deathrattle era). Combo, mill, and the other types are needed parts of the game. We just have to think more deeply and on how the entire game went and beyond 2 turns ahead/behind of where we are at the moment.
edit: this is why Tempo works well against mill btw. When mill has their setup cards (coldlight, gangup, ext.) they want enough peace to use those cards at the right time. When they have their removal cards, they to stall the game until they get their setup cards.
When you're always throwing threats at them, time is what they don't have. They are forced to throw their removal cards and, thus, drain themselves dry. If they have their setup instead, they are forced to use those at a bad time just to keep alive. Combo style decks want to throw enough removal to shut you up then use the extra time to build up. If you never shut up, they can't set up and all that's left is death.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.