Guys, stop quoting the blizzcon stats like they are still relevant. The game has changed a TON since then, and they don't mean anything anymore. It's quite possible that turn 2 is stronger right now, but I doubt it.
Guys, stop quoting the blizzcon stats like they are still relevant. The game has changed a TON since then, and they don't mean anything anymore. It's quite possible that turn 2 is stronger right now, but I doubt it.
In a new episode of Value town 13 days ago ChanmanV brought it up again and Eric Dodds mentioned it's still favourable playing first.
Take Worgen Infiltrator, then proceed to shut down most opening (opponent's turn 1) coin drops.
I used to feel going second was best, but now I feel it depends on your deck build/mana curve. Ideally getting the first card in play improves your chances of retaining board control meaning you're setting the tempo forcing the enemy to play into a board that may not be favorable.Dropping a 3/2 into Worgen Infiltrator as I stated before.
The times where going first feels UP (to me) is when you get a bad draw which doesn't allow you to have an answer to your opponent's coin assuming they choose to use it on their first or second turn. Something like a hand full of 3+s or even 2s for some classes means they are essentially now in the player 2 position. But then that is countered by the potential to play removal/cc a turn earlier which then should swing momentum back to you, assuming you can follow it with a minion or additional removal on the following turn.
Guys, stop quoting the blizzcon stats like they are still relevant. The game has changed a TON since then, and they don't mean anything anymore. It's quite possible that turn 2 is stronger right now, but I doubt it.
There's been very few changes since then. How many cards have changed? A handful. It's still relevant.
Guys, stop quoting the blizzcon stats like they are still relevant. The game has changed a TON since then, and they don't mean anything anymore. It's quite possible that turn 2 is stronger right now, but I doubt it.
There's been very few changes since then. How many cards have changed? A handful. It's still relevant.
Not the game itself, the metagame has changed a ton.
Just because first turn and second turn are balanced overall doesn't mean the coin is doing its job perfectly. With my rogue deck I pray to get the coin. The deck plays uber fast with it. I haven't kept any stats on it though.
Anyway its quite possible that the coin does its job well for 95% of decks and is unbalanced for 5%. Looking at the overall stat is nice, but it also needs to be looked at deck-type by deck-type. It can be a problem.
(P.S. If you don't believe me: Imagine that there are 3000 possible decks and the win rate with the coin is 50:50 with 2999 of them. And one deck has 100% win rate with the coin and 25% without it. The overall stats will say 50:50 all is well. But with that one deck the coin is broken. So don't ever believe Blizz stats, especially given the interviews I've heard they have their head up their asses (or busy elsewhere :)) when asked basic questions they are like um maybe we should keep that stat. If I was them, I'd have so many stats it'd be crazy and fun.)
Negative - they have said not only once, but twice since then. One is a blue post about a week ago, and the other is in an interview on iHearthu that is even more recent with the senior game designer, who pretty much laughed at anyone who thought coin was any good.
Supposedly, still to this day, there are matchups where playing first has a 6% advantage over Coin.
A. most matchups they don't care if they go first or 2nd as it's not much of a difference B. the matchups that don't fit in to "most" aka mirror matchups or matchups against really aggresive decks (warlock murloc for example) they prefer to go FIRST, not second.
going 1st gives you always 1 more mana to use then ur opponent did giving you good options for that turn. The Coin stops that advantage for 1 turn making it equal mana or at turn 1, 1 more mana
It also counts as a spell. In my opinion, that's the strongest part of it. I find the coin more useful when used to proc wild pyro, gaining a card with Auctioneer (or something similar) than gaining the extra mana. It also counts as a card, meaning that mountain Giants can come out sooner, Twilight drakes etc. are stronger from player 2.
I still think turn 1 and turn 2 are fairly balanced with a slight edge towards turn 1, but be fair about it. In the end, it depends on the deck. Some decks I prefer turn 2 (like my control druid using auction and mountain giants) but I prefer turn 1 on my other decks.
I'm sure its been said before, but it being a spell is quite strong. I don't mind the interaction with combos as a card being "played", that's okay to a certain extent, but using it as a spell to trigger Mana Addict, Pyromancer, and Gadgetzan, is when I see Coin as a bit too interactive on the field.
I mean, you can change just change the coin to a non-spell card o_o Shouldn't be hard at all in
Things like Manawyrm + Coin + Mirror Image for a first turn 3/3 and two 0/2 taunts shouldn't be acceptable with their stance on coin + Defias imo, granted Mana Wyrm is a single entity, but their reduction of Defias to a 2/2 also suggests something.
Yes exactly. That's what i was refering about. Blizzard could change the coin to a non spell card to negate its effect combined with cards like wyrm, auctionneer or pyromancer.....but to prevent it to interact with combo they would have to change the mechanics because the coin would still be a card (non spell) and would trigger the combo.
The fact is that they can't do that, since that would make going first even better then it is today. The statistics we have now is with the coin counting as a spell and a card.
This card for some classes is just a huge boost.
Rogues, mages, druids.
Rogues getting sick combo out of it.
Mages boosting the wyrm at 1st draw to 3/3
Druid dropped a 1/1/bubble + fairy dragon
And many more combos that are strong.
They just shut you down from the very begging and you can't keep up.
Maybe am wrong?
Yes, you're wrong.
Blizzard gave official stats for all classes at Blizzcon. It's still marginally better to go first for all classes.
I doubt that I am wrong.
It shouldn't count as a combo and a spell card.
It should just give 1 mana.
You can doubt all you like. You are still wrong. :)
Blizzard have actual stats on this, you know.
See here: http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/197-fireside-chat-blizzcon-panel
Look at the two pictures with the legend "First turn advantage"
Statistics say otherwise, it's still more people winning when goin first then goin second. Atm it's somewere around 53% in favour of going first.
Guys, stop quoting the blizzcon stats like they are still relevant. The game has changed a TON since then, and they don't mean anything anymore. It's quite possible that turn 2 is stronger right now, but I doubt it.
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In a new episode of Value town 13 days ago ChanmanV brought it up again and Eric Dodds mentioned it's still favourable playing first.
Edit: It was actually not Value town, it was actually GGDOAs chat with Ben Brode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMYFZ7Tp9Vk Released the same day tho.
Take Worgen Infiltrator, then proceed to shut down most opening (opponent's turn 1) coin drops.
I used to feel going second was best, but now I feel it depends on your deck build/mana curve. Ideally getting the first card in play improves your chances of retaining board control meaning you're setting the tempo forcing the enemy to play into a board that may not be favorable.Dropping a 3/2 into Worgen Infiltrator as I stated before.
The times where going first feels UP (to me) is when you get a bad draw which doesn't allow you to have an answer to your opponent's coin assuming they choose to use it on their first or second turn. Something like a hand full of 3+s or even 2s for some classes means they are essentially now in the player 2 position. But then that is countered by the potential to play removal/cc a turn earlier which then should swing momentum back to you, assuming you can follow it with a minion or additional removal on the following turn.
I do agree it shouldn't trigger spell cards like mages wyrm and rouges combo 3 drop.
There's been very few changes since then. How many cards have changed? A handful. It's still relevant.
Not the game itself, the metagame has changed a ton.
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Just because first turn and second turn are balanced overall doesn't mean the coin is doing its job perfectly. With my rogue deck I pray to get the coin. The deck plays uber fast with it. I haven't kept any stats on it though.
Anyway its quite possible that the coin does its job well for 95% of decks and is unbalanced for 5%. Looking at the overall stat is nice, but it also needs to be looked at deck-type by deck-type. It can be a problem.
(P.S. If you don't believe me: Imagine that there are 3000 possible decks and the win rate with the coin is 50:50 with 2999 of them. And one deck has 100% win rate with the coin and 25% without it. The overall stats will say 50:50 all is well. But with that one deck the coin is broken. So don't ever believe Blizz stats, especially given the interviews I've heard they have their head up their asses (or busy elsewhere :)) when asked basic questions they are like um maybe we should keep that stat. If I was them, I'd have so many stats it'd be crazy and fun.)
Negative - they have said not only once, but twice since then. One is a blue post about a week ago, and the other is in an interview on iHearthu that is even more recent with the senior game designer, who pretty much laughed at anyone who thought coin was any good.
Supposedly, still to this day, there are matchups where playing first has a 6% advantage over Coin.
Most pro's will tell you two things:
A. most matchups they don't care if they go first or 2nd as it's not much of a difference
B. the matchups that don't fit in to "most" aka mirror matchups or matchups against really aggresive decks (warlock murloc for example) they prefer to go FIRST, not second.
It also counts as a spell. In my opinion, that's the strongest part of it. I find the coin more useful when used to proc wild pyro, gaining a card with Auctioneer (or something similar) than gaining the extra mana. It also counts as a card, meaning that mountain Giants can come out sooner, Twilight drakes etc. are stronger from player 2.
I still think turn 1 and turn 2 are fairly balanced with a slight edge towards turn 1, but be fair about it. In the end, it depends on the deck. Some decks I prefer turn 2 (like my control druid using auction and mountain giants) but I prefer turn 1 on my other decks.
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+1
It kind of is a little OP imo. I play Rogue and I can just tempo my opponent out of the game too often with the coin.
I'm sure its been said before, but it being a spell is quite strong. I don't mind the interaction with combos as a card being "played", that's okay to a certain extent, but using it as a spell to trigger Mana Addict, Pyromancer, and Gadgetzan, is when I see Coin as a bit too interactive on the field.
http://www.youtube.com/user/vtxaishi
You're not going crazy, I edit 2~3 times each post
I mean, you can change just change the coin to a non-spell card o_o
Shouldn't be hard at all in
Things like Manawyrm + Coin + Mirror Image for a first turn 3/3 and two 0/2 taunts shouldn't be acceptable with their stance on coin + Defias imo, granted Mana Wyrm is a single entity, but their reduction of Defias to a 2/2 also suggests something.
http://www.youtube.com/user/vtxaishi
You're not going crazy, I edit 2~3 times each post
The fact is that they can't do that, since that would make going first even better then it is today. The statistics we have now is with the coin counting as a spell and a card.