I made this card yesterday after trying to pull it for a month(I have all the best ones already and then some) I have to say, I have found it extremely useful and every time I play it, it freezes the board. I put it in milling decks and those have been a blast to play as well(even when you lose) but mostly using it in zoo. Just wondering if anyone else has used it, or what thoughts are as to the usefulness of it in other decks. Im sure everyone is aware of the plague of miracle trashbags and handlocks, and i feel like in both matchups cho would be extremely useful. against rogues it pretty much stops them dead intheir tracks, esp if you play it around the turn theyre about to spam spells or get him on the board early and protect him.
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Also I think its best in zoo because you only use 2-4 spells max in a zoo deck. early game prevents them from ruining your start, and midgame it stops them from taking out doomguards and buffed mobs
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it prevents use of removal against most other decks too though. he essentially potentially gives you 31+ cards. If they use spell to remove him, you get that spell, and it improves the chance of another minions survival.
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Okay, Im just talking in theory. I have not seen it in practice, but how would that help against Miracle? (Also just FYI, I dont hate on Miracle and even played a LOT of it while learning the game in Season 1. Im not a person who is bitching that it doesnt matter and miracle will win regardless.)
I mean its not like any Rogue spells are that amazing on their own so if I were playing my deck I dont think it would change my play at all. OOh you got a preperation, sap, sinister strike and fan of knives.... why does Miracle care? What spell do you think would help you stop Miracle? It doesnt really burn their cards too much either. I mean yes their hand would be full and one card would get burned at the beginning of their turn but then all their draws would still happen the same because they are still getting a card out of their hand to trigger Gadgetzan.
Again, Im not saying miracle is OP and Im not trying to just bum you out. Im honestly wondering if I missed something. How would that effect a Miracle Rogues play?
Trump runs lorewalker in hes zoo deck iirc. I dont think its that good vs miracle. But it does scare druids and shamans from using their minion removal.
The problem would be if they just leave the lorewalker up. Because then, what are you going to do with the spells? If you use them, he gets them back. And you dont want that, because then your minions will die. A druid will have way more sturdy minions than you. So if you both have "unlimited spells" thanks to lorewalker the druid will end up winning. He can kill most of your minions with one wrath but you need more than that to kill hes yetis and 5+ health minions.
Edit: all of this is of course assuming you run zoo.
Sap for one. do you really want to give a warlock eviscerate or backstab? max HP of monsters in a miracle deck is 4. If you use Cho then set up your board its usually too late for them to do anything about it by the time they decide to remove him. It could screw you over, but then again so can Ragnaros or any number of RNG in this game. When you play a mage, that makes pretty much all of their removal obsolete. do you really want to give someone a frostbolt, fireball, flamestrike, or polymorph? yes it fills your hand up too, but you only play your minions until he kills Cho. Then you have a bunch of spells that you can use without any consequence.
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Again, Im not saying miracle is OP and Im not trying to just bum you out. Im honestly wondering if I missed something. How would that effect a Miracle Rogues play?
You did miss something.
A big part of the reason Rogue is strong is those cheap spells. Add those cheap spells to a Warlock arsenal, and it spells trouble. Now yeah, okay, Deadly Poison and Blade Flurry, not going to do much more than be fodder for Soulfire - but even that's not bad, better drop a fodder Deadly Poison than a valuable Abusive Sergeant.
Also think about the actual flow of a game. A lot of Miracle Rogue decks depend on intermediate board presence; SI:7 Agent, Earthen Ring Farseer, Azure Drake, to slow opponent aggression. So let's say Warlock's managed to establish board presence - nothing whatever super, just a few minions. Typically Rogue has some sort of cheap tempo removal. But with Cho out, the Rogue either has to remove Cho (typically at a cost of 2-3 card effects unless burning a precious Eviscerate), *while leaving the clout of the Warlock board intact*, or remove the clout of the Warlock board, feeding the Warlock hand with cheap spell removal to use against that intermediate Rogue board presence. Neither is really great.
Most miracle rogue wins aren't determined by a Gadgetzan drop by itself - it's what comes before and after; the Gadgetzan helps, sure, yes, of course, but Cho throws a big wrench into the "before" and "after" phases. Unless your opponent's powering a Gadgetzan OTK, Cho can help.
Mind that players aren't saying OMG OMG CHO THE HARD COUNTER TO MIRACLE ROGUE!!!1!one! No - it's more just rehashing that old Lorewalker Cho sideboard. Situationally useful, and in this meta, why not? Especially for Zoo Warlock that doesn't typically run a ton of spells anyways.
Re: your point about Gadgetzan draw and to clarify: Cho isn't supposed to be a counter to Rogue win conditions. It's supposed to be a situational counter to Rogue prevention-of-loss conditions.
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If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
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Got it in a pack 5 days ago , was so happy went straight to try it with some Thoughtsteals and Mindgames , it's so fun when ur enemy ignores it and play for fun , but its also sad when he kills it right away :( , today i had 3 Deathwings in my hand (2 golden) from using Mindvisions and passing them away with Cho :P. Very fun card with huge potential
There's an interesting Murloc Warloc deck floating around where the guy who did the write-up on hearthstone.2p.com stated that after adding Cho in to the list his win-rate went up 30%. Since Murloc Warlock really doesn't run any spells besides Soulfire and occasionally Mortal Coil the draw back of Cho just isn't there.
Basically Cho shuts down board wipes and in aggressive minion centric decks it's very hard for your opponent to get anything to stick long enough to remove him any other way BUT with removal spells... which, of course, you NEVER want to give to Zoo/Murloc ;)
Noxious also LOVES him some Cho. It's amazing the plays he pulls off with that guy.
Re: your point about Gadgetzan draw and to clarify: Cho isn't supposed to be a counter to Rogue win conditions. It's supposed to be a situational counter to Rogue prevention-of-loss conditions.
Okay, yeah I did miss that I guess. Also I thought that it was being mentioned more broadly than just in the Miracle/Zoo matchup. I still feel like it is a weak reason to include Cho specifically for playing against Miracle Rogue. I mean Rogue's really only need those creatures you mentioned to maintain some kind of board presence and to soften you up for the combo.
Consider the following facts though:
A) As a Rogue in a Zoo/Miracle matchup, you are more concerned with clearing the Zoo's minions that hurt you than you are getting minor board presence (Zoo's will easily overrun you if you worry about board presence over board clear)
B) Most of your spells that you will use in achieving that goal you dont care if they have(pretty much anything minus Eviscerate)
C) Zoo lifetapping softens them up for the combo without any work from the rogue anyways so the minor board presence that those creatures provided arent really needed.
I just dont see why Cho would matter to the Rogue, especially in that matchup. It seems like a minor inconvenience at most and Zoo already has the upper hand. I'm not saying that Cho is a bad addition to a Zoo deck and I think you could find a use for him in other decks as well (like maybe a Weapon Warrior deck I mean what is your opponent gonna do with an Upgrade! and Brawl, good luck finding a use for Brawl AFTER I brawled, lol). Im just saying that I do not think that Miracle Rogue is the matchup that should convince you to throw him in.
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I made this card yesterday after trying to pull it for a month(I have all the best ones already and then some) I have to say, I have found it extremely useful and every time I play it, it freezes the board. I put it in milling decks and those have been a blast to play as well(even when you lose) but mostly using it in zoo. Just wondering if anyone else has used it, or what thoughts are as to the usefulness of it in other decks. Im sure everyone is aware of the plague of miracle trashbags and handlocks, and i feel like in both matchups cho would be extremely useful. against rogues it pretty much stops them dead intheir tracks, esp if you play it around the turn theyre about to spam spells or get him on the board early and protect him.
Check out my decks & feel free to make suggestions!
Also I think its best in zoo because you only use 2-4 spells max in a zoo deck. early game prevents them from ruining your start, and midgame it stops them from taking out doomguards and buffed mobs
Check out my decks & feel free to make suggestions!
Yea, Lorewalker Cho would be great against Miracle Rogue. Never thought of that before! It might be the only matchup where it's actually viable.
it prevents use of removal against most other decks too though. he essentially potentially gives you 31+ cards. If they use spell to remove him, you get that spell, and it improves the chance of another minions survival.
Check out my decks & feel free to make suggestions!
Okay, Im just talking in theory. I have not seen it in practice, but how would that help against Miracle? (Also just FYI, I dont hate on Miracle and even played a LOT of it while learning the game in Season 1. Im not a person who is bitching that it doesnt matter and miracle will win regardless.)
I mean its not like any Rogue spells are that amazing on their own so if I were playing my deck I dont think it would change my play at all. OOh you got a preperation, sap, sinister strike and fan of knives.... why does Miracle care? What spell do you think would help you stop Miracle? It doesnt really burn their cards too much either. I mean yes their hand would be full and one card would get burned at the beginning of their turn but then all their draws would still happen the same because they are still getting a card out of their hand to trigger Gadgetzan.
Again, Im not saying miracle is OP and Im not trying to just bum you out. Im honestly wondering if I missed something. How would that effect a Miracle Rogues play?
Trump runs lorewalker in hes zoo deck iirc.
I dont think its that good vs miracle. But it does scare druids and shamans from using their minion removal.
The problem would be if they just leave the lorewalker up. Because then, what are you going to do with the spells? If you use them, he gets them back. And you dont want that, because then your minions will die.
A druid will have way more sturdy minions than you. So if you both have "unlimited spells" thanks to lorewalker the druid will end up winning. He can kill most of your minions with one wrath but you need more than that to kill hes yetis and 5+ health minions.
Edit: all of this is of course assuming you run zoo.
Cho is awesome, but he wont win you games by turn 5, so he isnt used as much as he should.
Not sure if hyped yet.
Sap for one. do you really want to give a warlock eviscerate or backstab? max HP of monsters in a miracle deck is 4. If you use Cho then set up your board its usually too late for them to do anything about it by the time they decide to remove him. It could screw you over, but then again so can Ragnaros or any number of RNG in this game. When you play a mage, that makes pretty much all of their removal obsolete. do you really want to give someone a frostbolt, fireball, flamestrike, or polymorph? yes it fills your hand up too, but you only play your minions until he kills Cho. Then you have a bunch of spells that you can use without any consequence.
Check out my decks & feel free to make suggestions!
You did miss something.
A big part of the reason Rogue is strong is those cheap spells. Add those cheap spells to a Warlock arsenal, and it spells trouble. Now yeah, okay, Deadly Poison and Blade Flurry, not going to do much more than be fodder for Soulfire - but even that's not bad, better drop a fodder Deadly Poison than a valuable Abusive Sergeant.
Also think about the actual flow of a game. A lot of Miracle Rogue decks depend on intermediate board presence; SI:7 Agent, Earthen Ring Farseer, Azure Drake, to slow opponent aggression. So let's say Warlock's managed to establish board presence - nothing whatever super, just a few minions. Typically Rogue has some sort of cheap tempo removal. But with Cho out, the Rogue either has to remove Cho (typically at a cost of 2-3 card effects unless burning a precious Eviscerate), *while leaving the clout of the Warlock board intact*, or remove the clout of the Warlock board, feeding the Warlock hand with cheap spell removal to use against that intermediate Rogue board presence. Neither is really great.
Most miracle rogue wins aren't determined by a Gadgetzan drop by itself - it's what comes before and after; the Gadgetzan helps, sure, yes, of course, but Cho throws a big wrench into the "before" and "after" phases. Unless your opponent's powering a Gadgetzan OTK, Cho can help.
Mind that players aren't saying OMG OMG CHO THE HARD COUNTER TO MIRACLE ROGUE!!!1!one! No - it's more just rehashing that old Lorewalker Cho sideboard. Situationally useful, and in this meta, why not? Especially for Zoo Warlock that doesn't typically run a ton of spells anyways.
Re: your point about Gadgetzan draw and to clarify: Cho isn't supposed to be a counter to Rogue win conditions. It's supposed to be a situational counter to Rogue prevention-of-loss conditions.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Got it in a pack 5 days ago , was so happy went straight to try it with some Thoughtsteals and Mindgames , it's so fun when ur enemy ignores it and play for fun , but its also sad when he kills it right away :( , today i had 3 Deathwings in my hand (2 golden) from using Mindvisions and passing them away with Cho :P. Very fun card with huge potential
xXxOMGFxXx#1924 (Battle.net)
Ósama ßin Laggin (LoL - Eune)
There's an interesting Murloc Warloc deck floating around where the guy who did the write-up on hearthstone.2p.com stated that after adding Cho in to the list his win-rate went up 30%. Since Murloc Warlock really doesn't run any spells besides Soulfire and occasionally Mortal Coil the draw back of Cho just isn't there.
Basically Cho shuts down board wipes and in aggressive minion centric decks it's very hard for your opponent to get anything to stick long enough to remove him any other way BUT with removal spells... which, of course, you NEVER want to give to Zoo/Murloc ;)
Noxious also LOVES him some Cho. It's amazing the plays he pulls off with that guy.
Okay, yeah I did miss that I guess. Also I thought that it was being mentioned more broadly than just in the Miracle/Zoo matchup. I still feel like it is a weak reason to include Cho specifically for playing against Miracle Rogue. I mean Rogue's really only need those creatures you mentioned to maintain some kind of board presence and to soften you up for the combo.
Consider the following facts though:
A) As a Rogue in a Zoo/Miracle matchup, you are more concerned with clearing the Zoo's minions that hurt you than you are getting minor board presence (Zoo's will easily overrun you if you worry about board presence over board clear)
B) Most of your spells that you will use in achieving that goal you dont care if they have(pretty much anything minus Eviscerate)
C) Zoo lifetapping softens them up for the combo without any work from the rogue anyways so the minor board presence that those creatures provided arent really needed.
I just dont see why Cho would matter to the Rogue, especially in that matchup. It seems like a minor inconvenience at most and Zoo already has the upper hand. I'm not saying that Cho is a bad addition to a Zoo deck and I think you could find a use for him in other decks as well (like maybe a Weapon Warrior deck I mean what is your opponent gonna do with an Upgrade! and Brawl, good luck finding a use for Brawl AFTER I brawled, lol). Im just saying that I do not think that Miracle Rogue is the matchup that should convince you to throw him in.