Hearthpwn

Quote from scorpyon >>

Thanks? Lol 😎

Hi, posting this here since I didn’t know you had to post all discussion in the card thread (sorry :) )

....

 Like, how are people not seeing this is a trash tier card? So, you are telling me first you have to draw the (bad) card, then play a 6 mana 5/5 which does absolutely nothing on the board while Call of Arms is flooding the board and killing in the face or Cubelock smacking in the face with 3 Doomguards....

...and you just played a 6 mana 5/5.

But wait, it gets better. After doing this and surviving, surely it’s worth it right? Wow, I just drew a 3/3 cleric! Wow, my Primordial Drake now has 4 more power! Note that they still have the SAME TOUGHNESS, so imagine the scenario where a paladin wants to get through your Drake. There are only 2 possibilities, either trading their minions against you 4/8 (they will die anyways) or trading them against your 8/8 (they will also die), OR Spellbreaking the drake, which obviously negates not only the taunt but also the attack.

Against control, yay, a 12/12 Ysera that can be now Deathed! Note that Ysera wins games thanks to its insane value, and again, control decks DO NOT CARE about it’s buffed Attack since they want to Psychic Scream/Execute/Vilespine/Twisting Nether/whatever.

And finally, the fact that after drawing Lady in White you also have to DRAW the buffed cards in a class which doesn’t really have much draw, and play your buffed minions which have the same health as before and die to the exact same things. Like, compare this to Tarim which is one of the most busted Legendaries period, you can easily and inmediately transform a board of weak minions into a huge threat and instakill the opponent, even in the same turn with something like Muster for Battle or Lost in the Jungle. Huge board impact, instant effect, even has taunt, can easily close out games. Lady in white, does nothing on the board, does not even have taunt, relies on you drawing the buffed threats, and the reward is subpar at best.

It’s the epitome of a win-more card.

Like, how are people not seeing this is a trash tier card? So, you are telling me first you have to draw the (bad) card, then play a 6 mana 5/5 which does absolutely nothing on the board while Call of Arms is flooding the board and killing in the face or Cubelock smacking in the face with 3 Doomguards....

...and you just played a 6 mana 5/5.

But wait, it gets better. After doing this and surviving, surely it’s worth it right? Wow, I just drew a 3/3 cleric! Wow, my Primordial Drake now has 4 more power! Note that they still have the SAME TOUGHNESS, so imagine the scenario where a paladin wants  to get through your Drake. There are only 2 possibilities, either trading their minions against you 4/8 (they will die anyways) or trading them against your 8/8 (they will also die), OR Spellbreaking the drake, which obviously negates not only the taunt but also the attack.

Against control, yay, a 12/12 Ysera that can be now Deathed! Note that Ysera wins games thanks to its insane value, and again, control decks DO NOT CARE about it’s buffed Attack since they want to Psychic Scream/Execute/Vilespine/Twisting Nether/whatever.

And finally, the fact that after drawing Lady in White you also have to DRAW the buffed cards in a class which doesn’t really have much draw, and  play your buffed minions which have the same health as before and die to the exact same things. Like, compare this to Tarim which is one of the most busted Legendaries period, you can easily and inmediately transform a board of weak minions into a huge threat and instakill the opponent, even in the same turn with something like Muster for Battle or Lost in the Jungle. Huge board impact, instant effect, even has taunt, can easily close out games. Lady in white, does nothing on the board, does not even have taunt, relies on you drawing the buffed threats, and the reward is subpar at best.

It’s the epitome of a win-more card.

Quote from Dinomaniak >>

So... I play the Naga sea With giants warlock at times. You have the coin 50% of the time, and you have Naga in hand about 30% of the time. And even then, you get 1-2 giants on average. Meaning, you can play the combo you mentioned, around 1 in 20 games ( talking from personal experience, not from data, as I'm not the type to record games and stats, I'm very casual ). Then... making it to turn 5 in wild is surprising with all the rush and/or face decks out there.

You'd be surprised on the win rate, it really isn't that high.
With pirate warrior, with murloc pala, with dude pala, with secret pala, with hunters, mage playing 2x mana wyrm at turn 1, with rush shaman, with early buff druid, you often die at turn 4. You don't even get to play part of the combo, and those rush decks are a lot more consistent than getting 2+ giants in hand and a naga.

Sure, if I get the right cards in hand (condition 1 - which RARELY happens ), and if I get to survive to turn 4-5-6 (condition 2 - again, which RARELY happens), it isn't balanced, that's true, BUT most of the time, I never get to those turns, and when I do, chances that I'll have the proper cards in hand are very slim.
The need for balance in wild is huge, if it would happen, Naga won't be the first place where it needs to happen, but I agree it's a card that should be reconsidered.  My opinion - balance in wild... it's not going to happen, so deal with it.

 

Hi, I know that there are more threads about this subject and until now I had never posted here, but as a long time Wild and regular Legend player, and because I care a lot about this format, I must state again the obvious: we are in a bad place, more than anything I can remember, and I'm afraid about the future and the health of the format.

This is basically a cry for help to Blizzard, my hope is that they don't wait a year or more to act like they usually do if they understand how serious the problems are right now in Wild's meta. I'll explain what I thing are the biggest issues, most of them you already know and are pretty obvious, but still.

Naga Sea Witch: everybody says it, everybody knows it, everybody (mostly) agrees on it Nagalock is probably the most unhealthy and damaging deck to ever have emerged in Wild. I'm not saying this because it is powerful. It is, but it's not Tier 0. I can be beat with an aggressive start or if they stumble (the deck, if it loses, it's sometimes to itself due to having both Naga Witches near the bottom of the deck).

It is mainly because of the way the deck works and how it affects the opposing player.

Example: I was playing Reno Priest with the Raza-Anduin-Spawn finisher (again, I usually play non-meta decks but this one is still deceptively powerful, especially cause nobody plays it, but I'll leave that for another thread). Matchup should be pretty even, maybe even favored, I'm quite prepared for huge threats (Lightbomb, Shadow Visions, Shadow Word: Death, Shadowreaper Anduin, Kazakus potion for 5 [ideally, Poly and 5 damage] and other less-optimal AOEs) and a fair amount of healing to not die even if some Giants hit me (Reno, Priest of the Feast, Spirit Lash, etc).

Situation 1: He's on the coin, an plays turn 4 Naga + 4 giants (4 giants is uncommon, but happens). I have Lightbomb and Reno, but I literally cannot do anything not to die even with a Lightbomb and a full heal. I cannot heal myself to more than 37 damage, and Lightbomb is a Turn away. If I had been on the Coin, I probably would have won, but I was not, so I lose. Without any interaction, without any chance, the actual outcome of the game was decided by a coin flip the moment the program decided that I was first and he was second.

Hearthstone has had it's fair amount of degenerate decks, but even against Pirate warrior a match wasn't decided with the flip of a coin, without you being able to do anything or interact in any way, or without you trying to fight back at least with some of your cards.

Situation 2: He's on the coin, and plays turn 4 Naga + 3 giants: I have Lightbomb, and in this case Death too, plus Lightbomb, plus Anduin, so it was looking pretty good. After deliberating, I Death Naga (usually the correct play) and hope to avoid double Darkbomb/Hellfire (as you'll see, it wouldn't have mattered anyways). He leaves me at 6 and plays Loatheb, and on turn 6 I have again no way of winning, even with the supposed tech card (Lightbomb) in hand. I realise Loatheb is supposed to do this, but usually skill-intensive and the precise turn must be carefully considered.

Overall, as you'll see all of these matches were decided on the coin, had absolutely no interaction whatsoever (opponent just tapped, played Naga and Giants, and killed their opponent), and the worst thing of all: there was absolutely no card (in my hand) in those situations which could have prevented me going from 30 to zero health in one turn. The feeling is horrible, absolutely "feels bad", because you basically feel you had no control whatsoever of what happened in that game or any chance to fight back.

The next card may be more controversial, so I'll try to explain it thoroughly

Divine favor: first, let's get one thing out of the way: Call of Arms is the absolute degenerate card and the one that allows Paladin to have such an absurd win rate, and I agree that it should be nerfed, but since that is common knowledge, I want to bring attention to what I consider one of the most "unfair" card in the whole game.

So, Divine Favor. Before Hearthstone, I was a long-time Magic: the Gathering player. For those here who have also played, I've seen it all - the terror of Skullclamp, which almost destroyed the whole game (literally, Magic almost disappeared after that disaster, it was that serious) and the less brutal but still insane short-lived era of Treasure Cruise. Now, these two cards both do basically the same. They allow aggro decks to draw an insane amount of cards (Skullclamp gave +1/-1 and made you draw 2 cards when the creature attached to it died, costed 1 mana to equip). Even if you haven't ever played Magic, you can understand why Skullclamp is considered one of the most broken cards of all time and is banned in almost every format imaginable and restricted in Vintage (the "all goes" eternal format). Coupled with typical x/1 aggro creatures, players could literally draw around 6 cards a turn just by spending 3 mana to attach it 3 times to a X/1 token or weak creature so it died.

Control decks had literally no chance. The hallmark of control decks, having high-cost high-impact cards to win the late-game at the very real cost of getting steamrolled if you didn't draw your low-costed removal, had absolutely no meaning in the face of an opponent who could play all cheap and aggressive cards, steamroll you, but not only that, they could refill their entire hand for 3 mana and even out-value you although you were playing a deck specifically made to draw a lot of cards and have a superior endgame.

Does it sound familiar?

Divine favor makes playing control decks essentially worthless. Why should an opponent, after he has spent all of his cards trying to kill you, and after you've barely managed to AOE and clear several times, be able to draw 9 cards for 3 mana, refill the entire board, and kill you? It's just not fair, dude. You just spent a ton of turns trying to stabilize, and you actually did it (barely) on turn 10. And you have a full grip of cards, cause that's what control decks do.

Aggro had his chance. He could have killed you on turn 5-6, and he certainly does it many times, but now it's turn 10 and he has no hand, no board and no resources left.

Why, why should he refill his entire hand, play it all, and overwhelm the opponent when that opponent had the game completely controlled and had exhausted him of resources? Fortunately HS only has 1 class with this card available, but still, it's just completely unhealthy and nonsensical. It's just not how TCGs work. 

Yes, Divine Favor is useless against aggro and many players even cut it in an aggro-heavy meta, but I wanna emphasize that I'm exposing Divine Favor not because of its inherent power level but  because of what the card does (brutally punish any control deck in existence). It's not even on the same level of Jade Idol - yes, that card invalidates old-school ultra-value, fatigue control decks, but you can still kill Jade Idol users with game-finishing combos (such as Maly Druid or Razakus), which is what most control decks nowadays do . Divine favor punishes any deck which does not want to vomit its hand and wants to draw cards for the aforementioned reasons.

Thanks for reading my ultra long post, and I hope we have some interesting discussions about it.

Danteh