So..few games today. mostly against warrior + mage. Warriors keeps shield slam + harrison for my Tirion. Even if I try to bate Jones out with a truesilver. They just get 20+ armor with a few cards only and wait out for their Alexstrasa+ Gromash Combo. I keep my Lay on hands or GOK, but I can't deal with the 8/8 this turn and heal up. You see the death's bite sitting at 1 charge and their is nothing you can do. I tried a game playing more aggressive, but got got punished by brawl.
Mechmages started out with the 2-mana snow thingie. Even though I had a Zombie out, I could not use my truesliver and of course got blast maged, sitting with an empty board, frozen and facing lethal in 2 turns.
Paladin is not rewarding enough and too frustrating to play
This reminds me of sort of a funny story. I was watching Reynad some time ago, and his greedy Druid deck loses to a slow Paladin with Black Knight and Sen'jins. He starts musing about how awesome Paladin is for a ladder deck, and goes in and starts building. When he emerges with this midrange deck, he hits the ladder. It's Priest. He saves Tirion in his opening hand so the Priest can't thoughtsteal him -- that's the best counter. To just slam it on curve and keep an 8 drop in your opening hand because the rest of your deck is so jank that your own legendary would close the game.
He drops Tirion on Turn 8. He's got this. The Priest proceeds to cast PW: Shield on Tirion, hero power himself, and wait 2 turns to Mind Control. Reynad starts fuming and says, "there is absolutely NO WAY Priest does not get your Tirion in this match up!" and proceeds to go on tilt and lose.
I love Tirion. He's my favorite legendary. He has to carry so much of the class, though, that everyone expects him. I think Bolvar improved the situation a little bit, and running cards like Sylvanas make it so you potentially and get Tirion to live, but I just thought it was a funny story and indicative of my experiences in the match-up. Priest always gets Tirion. Hahaha.
He hits the deck again, subs some things out, and decides to go with two Guardian of Ki-... then just says, "I don't feel like playing Paladin. I'm going play Warlock."
Edit: Speaking of Harrison Jones, if your Muster gets hit by Jones, you may not even see Tirion hit the board. Haha. Incoming 2-4 cards!
Edit2: I've also been hit by 2 Shrinkmeisters, and had Tirion get Cabal'd!
I don't have Captain Greenskin. Looks okay, though. I think with the two Owls, no Equality or Consecration, it's definitely more of a tourney deck and not a ladder deck. It's got some interesting choices, though. Xixo is a hell of a deck builder.
You can't really switch to face as the situation demands. Your deck had to be built with an idea. You can't build an aggro Paladin, see it's a control deck, and decide you are going to go to fatigue as a win condition. The class is capable of that, but the individual decks are not.
I think the big problems with Paladin right now are card draw and burst. I don't know which one is more damning. Priest can potentially draw a lot of cards, but have no real burst. Hunter is bursty as fuck, but their card draw is pretty bad. Warrior gets to have both.
It's kind of weird, because Paladin class minions are so bad, Tirion has to carry much of the weight. They are so bad that it's relatively easy to save a silence for Tirion. It's disgusting that Shield Maiden is just a straight up better Guardian of Kings, able to be played on curve with no drawbacks, and you have to pay 1 more mana for a measly 1 health. Lay on Hands I've found that in most control matches I just rush myself to fatigue faster, even if I needed the cards just then to stay in the game in the following turns. Muster / Quarter may as well just be dead, there's no way you are going to pull this off unless you have the board (and are winning anyway) and it's a turn slow, giving them time to clear. It's just terrible. If you are relying on the 8 mana combo of Muster + Quarter - this may as well be our new legendary. 8 mana (slow as fuck), but 11/14 creature split up on board. It's like a slightly better Thaddius.
It would really make me sad if Paladin's role was just to keep Zoo honest (and still lose to the other popular aggro decks in the new Mech Mage & old Face Hunter). Zoo and Warrior are the only match-ups I feel are really favored... and I can't remember the last time I won versus a smart Shaman or even a dumb Priest.
Edit: As a personal pet peeve, it really burns me up that Mage has a spell that gives them Armor, and a spell that makes them Immune. It really burns me up that Hunter has a weapon that makes them Immune. Being Immune has always been Paladin's thing.
I've been having some success with Brodos' Control Paladin posted in this thread. I really don't like the play style of midrange Paladin, and it feels like in some ways I'm trying to play the class counter intuitive to what Blizzard believes should be played. Going against the grain frequently just results in headaches. The one tournament ready Paladin deck has become stagnant, it's pretty much just Faramir's list. I'm waiting for someone to really take hold of late game Paladin and try some things, because in my own experiences, I'm just getting frustrated and coming up short.
I don't know what the next control Paladin will look like, but I want to see something new.
It's a tournament deck, those tend to be different from laddering decks; besides it's Darkwonyx who always makes weird decks (did you see his combo-Warlock?) xd
Oh, I know. I'd just be curious to see it. Scarlet Purifier did some work there.
Hey, Brodos. I actually saw that deck this morning and been playing around with it. I replaced Troggzor with Dr. Boom, though, and a Zombie Chow with Seal of Light. So far it's pretty okay, but like classic Control Pal, it seems to die to aggro. Do you have any vods of you playing with it?
Priest at least has valuable minions. Blademaster, Auchenai, Dark Cultist, and Cabal can stick around a long time. When I look at a Priest's deck and only see like 10 minions in it, I always wonder how they win any games.
Someone mentioned ( and I agree ) that Paladin is kind of stuck between "I want these combo cards" and "these are good minions", and has to really make concessions to play. I used to joke that Paladin's class mechanic was 2-for-1ing themselves on card advantage. I think the class needs to really get it's draw in order if the idea is to play like 2 to 3 cards a turn to try and keep up.
I just don't know how to do that. It's a shame we don't have a big bursty win condition (Tinker Rogue, Combo Druid, Control Warrior) or the ability to grind it out (Priest, Control Warrior). I really want there to be more than 1 Paladin deck that can compete on high level. I really don't want to do something like Leeroy + Faceless for burst.
Some more theorycrafting, I think Repentance might be okay. I'd only play it after Turn 7, really, and I don't think anyone would expect it. It's hilarious to get this on a Jaraxxus and set the player's health to 1.
I'm also using Bomb Lobbers & Dr. Boom. Dr. Boom is just good, you could probably fit him into any deck. My problem with Lay on Hands is the same it's always been, really. It's just a slow, slow card. I think the best case scenario is that you'd draw an Equality (assuming you have a board) or an Owl on Turn 10. The draw is obviously helpful, but I'm kind of doubting it lately.
I agree what you are saying about hoping you draw it.
Geddon... I don't know. I'm not convinced yet. While it's true that Geddon will help CW trigger Armorsmith and stuff, I think Geddon being another board clear with Equality is pretty cool. He's basically a huge Pyromancer that is actually a threat. I think I need to test him a bit more before I've made up my mind on the big guy.
I want to be clear that I don't think it's dead because popular streamers don't play it, I think popular streamers don't play it because it may be dead. Midrange and control are also pretty different. I'd also like this thread to be a forum for discussion of where control paladin to go, not a dick waving contest of your personal records.
Also, by "D9" do you mean Day9? Last time I checked he's playing an Echo gimmick deck. I don't really think that's indicative of the meta or a reason to run Paladin to counter it.
I think there needs to be some discussion about Baron Geddon. While there is anti-synergy with the hero power, it's another clear with Equality, and another potential BGH target. If you play Warrior, you know that you'd want your opponent to BGH your Baron as opposed to other stuff like 100% of the time.
I agree with some of the stuff Dwl_ is talking about, too. Juggler over Pyro makes sense, even if there's some RNG evolved with Equality clears, at least you don't lose your own board. I also like Bomb Lobber as a soft replacement for Kodo, even if Aldor + Kodo was great for one big threat on the board (I can't count the time I blew up a Ragnaros pre-GvG). I'm trying to make Cult Masters work, but the most I can get is that it usually replaces itself... in a good situation you can get a lot of draw, though.
I noticed some Warriors have reduced their Shield Block to x1, and I feel like I may have to cut Lay on Hands. In control vs. control, I find I can go into fatigue fairly quickly between a choice Harrison and Lay on Hands, and I don't like the speed at which I draw the deck sometimes.
I really hate Zombie Chows. They can get value, but they make some of the hard match-ups so much worse. It's great to draw him for a turn 1 play against aggro, but he feels clunky and bad when he is just potentially feeding Acolytes or Northshires or something. I kind of think Seal of Light is a potential replacement here.
I'm trying your deck in your signature, Dwl_. I like the look of it.
This reminds me of sort of a funny story. I was watching Reynad some time ago, and his greedy Druid deck loses to a slow Paladin with Black Knight and Sen'jins. He starts musing about how awesome Paladin is for a ladder deck, and goes in and starts building. When he emerges with this midrange deck, he hits the ladder. It's Priest. He saves Tirion in his opening hand so the Priest can't thoughtsteal him -- that's the best counter. To just slam it on curve and keep an 8 drop in your opening hand because the rest of your deck is so jank that your own legendary would close the game.
He drops Tirion on Turn 8. He's got this. The Priest proceeds to cast PW: Shield on Tirion, hero power himself, and wait 2 turns to Mind Control. Reynad starts fuming and says, "there is absolutely NO WAY Priest does not get your Tirion in this match up!" and proceeds to go on tilt and lose.
I love Tirion. He's my favorite legendary. He has to carry so much of the class, though, that everyone expects him. I think Bolvar improved the situation a little bit, and running cards like Sylvanas make it so you potentially and get Tirion to live, but I just thought it was a funny story and indicative of my experiences in the match-up. Priest always gets Tirion. Hahaha.
He hits the deck again, subs some things out, and decides to go with two Guardian of Ki-... then just says, "I don't feel like playing Paladin. I'm going play Warlock."
Edit: Speaking of Harrison Jones, if your Muster gets hit by Jones, you may not even see Tirion hit the board. Haha. Incoming 2-4 cards!
Edit2: I've also been hit by 2 Shrinkmeisters, and had Tirion get Cabal'd!
I don't have Captain Greenskin. Looks okay, though. I think with the two Owls, no Equality or Consecration, it's definitely more of a tourney deck and not a ladder deck. It's got some interesting choices, though. Xixo is a hell of a deck builder.
You can't really switch to face as the situation demands. Your deck had to be built with an idea. You can't build an aggro Paladin, see it's a control deck, and decide you are going to go to fatigue as a win condition. The class is capable of that, but the individual decks are not.
I think the big problems with Paladin right now are card draw and burst. I don't know which one is more damning. Priest can potentially draw a lot of cards, but have no real burst. Hunter is bursty as fuck, but their card draw is pretty bad. Warrior gets to have both.
It's kind of weird, because Paladin class minions are so bad, Tirion has to carry much of the weight. They are so bad that it's relatively easy to save a silence for Tirion. It's disgusting that Shield Maiden is just a straight up better Guardian of Kings, able to be played on curve with no drawbacks, and you have to pay 1 more mana for a measly 1 health. Lay on Hands I've found that in most control matches I just rush myself to fatigue faster, even if I needed the cards just then to stay in the game in the following turns. Muster / Quarter may as well just be dead, there's no way you are going to pull this off unless you have the board (and are winning anyway) and it's a turn slow, giving them time to clear. It's just terrible. If you are relying on the 8 mana combo of Muster + Quarter - this may as well be our new legendary. 8 mana (slow as fuck), but 11/14 creature split up on board. It's like a slightly better Thaddius.
It would really make me sad if Paladin's role was just to keep Zoo honest (and still lose to the other popular aggro decks in the new Mech Mage & old Face Hunter). Zoo and Warrior are the only match-ups I feel are really favored... and I can't remember the last time I won versus a smart Shaman or even a dumb Priest.
Edit: As a personal pet peeve, it really burns me up that Mage has a spell that gives them Armor, and a spell that makes them Immune. It really burns me up that Hunter has a weapon that makes them Immune. Being Immune has always been Paladin's thing.
I've been having some success with Brodos' Control Paladin posted in this thread. I really don't like the play style of midrange Paladin, and it feels like in some ways I'm trying to play the class counter intuitive to what Blizzard believes should be played. Going against the grain frequently just results in headaches. The one tournament ready Paladin deck has become stagnant, it's pretty much just Faramir's list. I'm waiting for someone to really take hold of late game Paladin and try some things, because in my own experiences, I'm just getting frustrated and coming up short.
I don't know what the next control Paladin will look like, but I want to see something new.
Oh, I know. I'd just be curious to see it. Scarlet Purifier did some work there.
What a strange deck. Pyros and Muster. It'd be nice to see a full decklist.
In the final of what? There's like 4 tournaments going on right now. Do you have a link to the vod/twitch?
Excellent, let me know when! I think I'll leave your list as is, TBK is one of my favorite cards and he's been slowly circulating back in, I think.
Thank you for the deck and the advice. I don't know what I'd cut for the Pyromancer, though. Everything in it just feels so right.
If you do get a vod, I'd be the first to watch it.
Hey, Brodos. I actually saw that deck this morning and been playing around with it. I replaced Troggzor with Dr. Boom, though, and a Zombie Chow with Seal of Light. So far it's pretty okay, but like classic Control Pal, it seems to die to aggro. Do you have any vods of you playing with it?
Priest at least has valuable minions. Blademaster, Auchenai, Dark Cultist, and Cabal can stick around a long time. When I look at a Priest's deck and only see like 10 minions in it, I always wonder how they win any games.
Someone mentioned ( and I agree ) that Paladin is kind of stuck between "I want these combo cards" and "these are good minions", and has to really make concessions to play. I used to joke that Paladin's class mechanic was 2-for-1ing themselves on card advantage. I think the class needs to really get it's draw in order if the idea is to play like 2 to 3 cards a turn to try and keep up.
I just don't know how to do that. It's a shame we don't have a big bursty win condition (Tinker Rogue, Combo Druid, Control Warrior) or the ability to grind it out (Priest, Control Warrior). I really want there to be more than 1 Paladin deck that can compete on high level. I really don't want to do something like Leeroy + Faceless for burst.
Some more theorycrafting, I think Repentance might be okay. I'd only play it after Turn 7, really, and I don't think anyone would expect it. It's hilarious to get this on a Jaraxxus and set the player's health to 1.
I'm also using Bomb Lobbers & Dr. Boom. Dr. Boom is just good, you could probably fit him into any deck. My problem with Lay on Hands is the same it's always been, really. It's just a slow, slow card. I think the best case scenario is that you'd draw an Equality (assuming you have a board) or an Owl on Turn 10. The draw is obviously helpful, but I'm kind of doubting it lately.
I agree what you are saying about hoping you draw it.
Geddon... I don't know. I'm not convinced yet. While it's true that Geddon will help CW trigger Armorsmith and stuff, I think Geddon being another board clear with Equality is pretty cool. He's basically a huge Pyromancer that is actually a threat. I think I need to test him a bit more before I've made up my mind on the big guy.
I want to be clear that I don't think it's dead because popular streamers don't play it, I think popular streamers don't play it because it may be dead. Midrange and control are also pretty different. I'd also like this thread to be a forum for discussion of where control paladin to go, not a dick waving contest of your personal records.
Also, by "D9" do you mean Day9? Last time I checked he's playing an Echo gimmick deck. I don't really think that's indicative of the meta or a reason to run Paladin to counter it.
I think there needs to be some discussion about Baron Geddon. While there is anti-synergy with the hero power, it's another clear with Equality, and another potential BGH target. If you play Warrior, you know that you'd want your opponent to BGH your Baron as opposed to other stuff like 100% of the time.
I agree with some of the stuff Dwl_ is talking about, too. Juggler over Pyro makes sense, even if there's some RNG evolved with Equality clears, at least you don't lose your own board. I also like Bomb Lobber as a soft replacement for Kodo, even if Aldor + Kodo was great for one big threat on the board (I can't count the time I blew up a Ragnaros pre-GvG). I'm trying to make Cult Masters work, but the most I can get is that it usually replaces itself... in a good situation you can get a lot of draw, though.
I noticed some Warriors have reduced their Shield Block to x1, and I feel like I may have to cut Lay on Hands. In control vs. control, I find I can go into fatigue fairly quickly between a choice Harrison and Lay on Hands, and I don't like the speed at which I draw the deck sometimes.
I really hate Zombie Chows. They can get value, but they make some of the hard match-ups so much worse. It's great to draw him for a turn 1 play against aggro, but he feels clunky and bad when he is just potentially feeding Acolytes or Northshires or something. I kind of think Seal of Light is a potential replacement here.
I'm trying your deck in your signature, Dwl_. I like the look of it.