Hearthpwn

This is the deck i have been using with pretty good success. Ancient Watcher + Coghammer is very good early vs agro/midrange decks. Only cards im really not too sure about is the Bomb Lobber and Harrison. This deck is doesnt seem to have any real awful match ups from my experience this season except for certain Rogue and Shaman variations.  I know a lot of people see Troggzor as a win more card, but i dont see it as that at all. Troggzor is very good against other control decks such as priest, handlock, and control warrior and if played correctly he can really force those decks in particular into awkward plays.

Against those decks it really depends on  your draw. If you get Coghammer or Watcher then mull everything else for the second part of that combo, if you dont have any of those then keep minibot, consecration, earthen. Mechmage is probably the most difficult out of the three since they can ping your hero power, but even against them it is only really hard against a good draw by them. i would say that all three of those match ups are around 50/50.

I'm back on the topic after a good Xmas break (happy holidays to all of you readers btw!)

Yes it's a hard time for Paladin since we didn't get much from GvG. Now we must accept that as a CCG there is always something on top and on the bottom of the food chain. It's a bit like for Rogue, they didn't get much from the expansion and the Gadgetzan nerf is making the Miracle build slow and with a lower % winrate. Can Rogue still win ? Yes. Can you make it to Legend with it? Yes. And so i believe that it's the same for Paladin.

Aggro is and will always be a strong archetype in this game. Paladin is likely to be a jack of all trade deck, you can do everything with it, super fast aggro, mid range, drag the game to the very late fatigue control but overall it will always be a little less effective than some other class more specified in one or the other of the game archetype.

I think that the best success you can have is still with a controlish version of Paladin, still with 2 Muster for Battle but only one Quartermaster (we all witnessed that people are clearing the Dudes ASAP the same way you clear beasts against Hunter) and trying to sideboard for the most played decks Hunter and handlock. Going for double BGH could be the answer for Handlock, double Healbot + Lay on Hands should shut down face Hunter.

I was hopping that the new GvG paladin Legendary would have Charge or some burst potential but we still have to build pressure overtime and with such a fast meta it's hard. At least Shielded Minibot and Zombie Chow helps a lot to secure the early game so that's already something.

About the Divine shield deck that appeared recently i'm not a huge fan tbh. Most of the time i see 2 or 3 divine shield on the board, they drop one Blood Knight and as soon as the Blood knight get silenced / removed you simply loose the upper hand you had with the Divine Shield.

In the end, we don't do Control like the best, we don't do Aggro like the best but we can adjust easily. We can switch to face or control as the situation demands it which can't be done when you play face hunter for example. (btw the more i tried Face Hunter the more i see how it's luck dependant... The first grain of sand in the machinery make you loose right away). 

And there's still hope that the next adventure / set will give us something really cool!

You can't really switch to face as the situation demands. Your deck had to be built with an idea. You can't build an aggro Paladin, see it's a control deck, and decide you are going to go to fatigue as a win condition. The class is capable of that, but the individual decks are not.

I think the big problems with Paladin right now are card draw and burst. I don't know which one is more damning. Priest can potentially draw a lot of cards, but have no real burst. Hunter is bursty as fuck, but their card draw is pretty bad. Warrior gets to have both.

It's kind of weird, because Paladin class minions are so bad, Tirion has to carry much of the weight. They are so bad that it's relatively easy to save a silence for Tirion. It's disgusting that Shield Maiden is just a straight up better Guardian of Kings, able to be played on curve with no drawbacks, and you have to pay 1 more mana for a measly 1 health. Lay on Hands I've found that in most control matches I just rush myself to fatigue faster, even if I needed the cards just then to stay in the game in the following turns. Muster / Quarter may as well just be dead, there's no way you are going to pull this off unless you have the board (and are winning anyway) and it's a turn slow, giving them time to clear. It's just terrible. If you are relying on the 8 mana combo of Muster + Quarter - this may as well be our new legendary. 8 mana (slow as fuck), but 11/14 creature split up on board. It's like a slightly better Thaddius.

It would really make me sad if Paladin's role was just to keep Zoo honest (and still lose to the other popular aggro decks in the new Mech Mage & old Face Hunter). Zoo and Warrior are the only match-ups I feel are really favored... and I can't remember the last time I won versus a smart Shaman or even a dumb Priest.

Edit: As a personal pet peeve, it really burns me up that Mage has a spell that gives them Armor, and a spell that makes them Immune. It really burns me up that Hunter has a weapon that makes them Immune. Being Immune has always been Paladin's thing.

Xixo's Paladin deck in the Pinnacle did quite well in the tournament (lost only once with it)

I don't have Captain Greenskin. Looks okay, though. I think with the two Owls, no Equality or Consecration,  it's definitely more of a tourney deck and not a ladder deck. It's got some interesting choices, though. Xixo is a hell of a deck builder.

silverhander I'm afraid to say that you've hit the nail on the head with your last post and that things are unlikely to change until the next expansion.

This has been the case since the launch of the game. We waited for Naxx but Avenge and undertaker happened, we waited for nerfs but some (read: hunter) class cards are so overpowered across the board that one or two nerfs won't stop their dominance, and now we have waited for a 100+ card expansion and still nothing has changed, people are even still playing the exact same decks as months ago.

As you say, Paladin class cards remain almost across the board overcosted and/or weak. They are even rendered redundant by neutral minions, such as antique halibut making holy light basically a joke. Meanwhile aggro cards as whole are overpowered in the game generally so without the massive armour gain and removal of something like Warrior, a slow class just will not work. That's us.

Without buffing our existing class cards it will take a very long time before enough good cards are given to Paladin to make it viable. As it stands ~20% of the class cards released whether it's vanilla, an adventure or an expansion are actually viable for Paladin, at that rate you can pretty much expect to wait 1 year minimum before Paladin has enough cards to simply match the toolbox that other classes have today, and by then, they will have many more.

If Blizzard were to give Hunter a few more nerfs eg. UT doesn't gain health, less attack on Highmane, 4 dmg Kill Command, less +mana cost on Freezing Trap, then that class would probably still be strong but not ludicrous like it is now. If they also nerfed Warrior a bit then together this would probably allow for a LOT more Paladin play and variety in decks for all classes. The former will happen but just a matter of how much Blizzard drag their feet, the latter probably will never happen.

Buffs for Paladin will also likely never happen and this is my main issue. It's all very well nerfing cards that are killing the game, but what about buffing cards that are killing classes. Paladin pays 2 mana for it's card draw in Lay on Hands and HoW, all other classes pay 1.5, then there's GoK etc. etc. if these things aren't addressed then we will always be behind.

Quote from silverhander »

You can't really switch to face as the situation demands. Your deck had to be built with an idea. You can't build an aggro Paladin, see it's a control deck, and decide you are going to go to fatigue as a win condition. The class is capable of that, but the individual decks are not.

I think the big problems with Paladin right now are card draw and burst. I don't know which one is more damning. Priest can potentially draw a lot of cards, but have no real burst. Hunter is bursty as fuck, but their card draw is pretty bad. Warrior gets to have both.

It's kind of weird, because Paladin class minions are so bad, Tirion has to carry much of the weight. They are so bad that it's relatively easy to save a silence for Tirion. It's disgusting that Shield Maiden is just a straight up better Guardian of Kings, able to be played on curve with no drawbacks, and you have to pay 1 more mana for a measly 1 health. Lay on Hands I've found that in most control matches I just rush myself to fatigue faster, even if I needed the cards just then to stay in the game in the following turns. Muster / Quarter may as well just be dead, there's no way you are going to pull this off unless you have the board (and are winning anyway) and it's a turn slow, giving them time to clear. It's just terrible. If you are relying on the 8 mana combo of Muster + Quarter - this may as well be our new legendary. 8 mana (slow as fuck), but 11/14 creature split up on board. It's like a slightly better Thaddius.

It would really make me sad if Paladin's role was just to keep Zoo honest (and still lose to the other popular aggro decks in the new Mech Mage & old Face Hunter). Zoo and Warrior are the only match-ups I feel are really favored... and I can't remember the last time I won versus a smart Shaman or even a dumb Priest.

 

Edit: As a personal pet peeve, it really burns me up that Mage has a spell that gives them Armor, and a spell that makes them Immune. It really burns me up that Hunter has a weapon that makes them Immune. Being Immune has always been Paladin's thing.

I can't say anything about your comment in the Edit section, i never played WoW however the rest of your comment is absolutely accurate. In the end i would rather have a draw mechanic than a burst. Burst feel always stupid since it's not a reward for playing correctly, it's just a way to congratulate you because you managed to draw all your combo components. I recently lost a game against druid while i was at 24 life, he bursted me out with two copies of Shade of Naxx he dropped the previous turn then they went to 3/3 and he dropped Savage FON combo and that was it... I don't care about loosing but i care about the way i loose!

Like Mpfranke said you can die pretty fast when playing Paladin, Snowchugger can be a massive pain in the ass (and so it can be when you play Control Warrior because wasting a Shield Slam will have a toll on you later as i've often experienced) and the late game isn't necessarily in your favor either but given the current cards at our disposal there isn't much we can do. It's not a problem of the way you play or the way you deckbuild, it's pretty much a problem of what you have been given to deckbuild with, exactly as you pointed out.

That list from Xixo is very good but again it's a tournament deck, Paladin is very good in Paladin meta because you can pick it up exactly when you need it to defeat a specific deck that you're facing. Ladder is still too "diversified" since you will face both very low decks (control Warrior / Priest) to very fast deck (hello Stupid Hunter! / Mech Mage). Plus Handlock in the mix, you can't have a decklist that covers all this, you have no choice but to cover some and give up on the rest. Unfortunately Control Warrior doesn't have the same issue since his hero power helps him a lot against all type of decks and his cards synergize with that mechanic very well. I wish the Dudes are 2/2 instead of 1/1...

On the end game you can't rely on Tirion only to do the job, he will get smashed pretty badly or stolen) because everyone expect him. Boom, Ragnaros or even Stallag / Feugen can add a good pressure but again it's not as effective as Grommash or Antonidas.

I wouldn't expect that Blizzard will start buffing cards for us to become competitive. It doesn't look like it's in the way of thinking and we will have to wait for the next set to see what we get. TBH i wouldn't like to see a buff since buffing seems a bit dumb. I've read a topic recently demanding that Boom got nerfed or War Golem get buffed so people can start playing with a competitive War Golem to match a very big legendary card... wtf?!?

 There might be the hope that Paladin is more effective once you've reached legend but it's sure a difficult climb with only Paladin all the way up there.

Quote from Mpfranke »

So..few games today. mostly against warrior + mage. Warriors keeps shield slam + harrison for my Tirion. Even if I try to bate Jones out with a truesilver. They just get 20+ armor with a few cards only and wait out for their Alexstrasa+ Gromash Combo. I keep my Lay on hands or GOK, but I can't deal with the 8/8 this turn and heal up. You see the death's bite sitting at 1 charge and their is nothing you can do. I tried a game playing more aggressive, but got got punished by brawl.

Mechmages started out with the 2-mana snow thingie. Even though I had a Zombie out, I could not use my truesliver and of course got blast maged, sitting with an empty board, frozen and facing lethal in 2 turns. 

Paladin is not rewarding enough and too frustrating to play

 

 

 

This reminds me of sort of a funny story. I was watching Reynad some time ago, and his greedy Druid deck loses to a slow Paladin with Black Knight and Sen'jins. He starts musing about how awesome Paladin is for a ladder deck, and goes in and starts building. When he emerges with this midrange deck, he hits the ladder. It's Priest. He saves Tirion in his opening hand so the Priest can't thoughtsteal him -- that's the best counter. To just slam it on curve and keep an 8 drop in your opening hand because the rest of your deck is so jank that your own legendary would close the game.

He drops Tirion on Turn 8. He's got this. The Priest proceeds to cast PW: Shield on Tirion, hero power himself, and wait 2 turns to Mind Control. Reynad starts fuming and says, "there is absolutely NO WAY Priest does not get your Tirion in this match up!" and proceeds to go on tilt and lose.

I love Tirion. He's my favorite legendary. He has to carry so much of the class, though, that everyone expects him. I think Bolvar improved the situation a little bit, and running cards like Sylvanas make it so you potentially and get Tirion to live, but I just thought it was a funny story and indicative of my experiences in the match-up. Priest always gets Tirion. Hahaha.

He hits the deck again, subs some things out, and decides to go with two Guardian of Ki-... then just says, "I don't feel like playing Paladin. I'm going play Warlock."

Edit: Speaking of Harrison Jones, if your Muster gets hit by Jones, you may not even see Tirion hit the board. Haha. Incoming 2-4 cards!

Edit2: I've also been hit by 2 Shrinkmeisters, and had Tirion get Cabal'd!

Yeah Reynad often starts saying that something that beat him is very strong in the current meta, switches to it and then start loosing before reversing his previous statement lol... tbh i have the same issue with Priest. Everytime i play against it they thoughtsteal my best stuff, have the perfect opening or the right Shadow Word at the best possible time. I go mad, switch to Priest and just thoughtsteal crappy stuff and never see any Shadow word until turn 64!

Whatever kind of Pally deck you play, you will always have a tough time against Priest no matter what :/

Tirion rarely gets me value anymore, everybody knows he's coming and can easily deal with all of our threats until he is played, by which point they can just remove/silence/steal him.

I'm really not sure how it's fair that Priest can steal cards, it just seems like an automatic tempo swing in their favour that can win games no matter how far behind they are, but this is coming from a Paladin only player so perhaps it's simply because we are so weak generally and have very few answers to priest that I feel this way, because other classes don't seem to find it so bad.

Shrinkmeister has significantly worsened our matchup with Priest as now they can effectively play 3 minions and remove one of your for 2 cards. Paladin has no reliable gimmicks or combos and relies entirely on value trading so this is basically the ultimate hard counter to our class.

I would be able to accept that we are severely handicapped against Priest though, if it wasn't also the case that we are a poor matchup to basically every other class in the game too, especially the most popular one, Hunter.

But ultimately I believe that the issue is we have no particular win conditions, no reliable combos, no bursts etc. Even muster/quartermaster when pulled off successfully seems to be easily dealt with. We are still confined to an arena style game of minion trading, only in a constructed setting where everyone is exploiting mechanics or setting up combos that will end the game before you'll have the chance to win that way.

The 8 Life is a game changer against Hunter. They have a hard time to Kill command you to death thanks to Healbot and it might give you enough time to go get that Lay on Hands. If you do, it's a win against Face Hunter!

Quote from dwl_ »

^ Despite that it's still not always enough against face-hunter; such a stupid deck goddamnit >:(

I know...

To be honest i generally start the season as Priest and then i switch to something else once i hit Rank 8 or above.

I'm having fun withy the secretadin deck but in terms of the ladder, no, I'm having no luck at all. Stuck at rank 14 which is the lowest I have ever been stuck at since launch. I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I do know that I face mainly hunters and warriors and I can't seem to find a deck that succeeds against both.

Last season I climbed to rank 5 very quickly then toward the end began to plummet and have been stuck there since.

After GvG release, Muster Paladin got easy wins because people didn't have a clue how to play against it. Meaning that most of the times your 1/1 survived until it was too late. Now after all that popularity and streaming you are effectively waiting for an 8 turn Muster/Quartermaster in order to get a combo going. 

Midrange paladin is playable, but nothing amazing at the moment. Control Paladin is a hell to ladder with, and on tournament there is no reason to play it since it has no clear matchup against any deck. Not even control Warrior.

not realy

Nope. Playing an old Kelzadin deck with redemptions on belchers and sunwalkers. It's a deck with filled board clears, heals, and late game stuff. I smile every time I face a hunter or zoo deck, cause I know I'll just heal and wipe the board clean always. Ctrl warrior and handlocks aren't even a problem too. It's still very good. 

I am stuck at rank 5 for a good 2 days now, always losing from Hunters/Zoo with openings of Undertaker and tons of deathrattles, IF I don't draw the perfect countering hand and IF they miss a turn during midgame. Of course, any Paladin deck can win against them on paper, but I can't score anything better than 50/50, with many games just lost due to their amazing starts or my slow starts. 

Not saying that Paladin is not viable, because it is on its better spot since the time of Giant Control but I think that it's about time they considered a nerf to the Undertaker card (probably not increasing health but only power) since it's a nightmare to ladder against aggro decks that win during their first two turns effectively.

Quote from Grumhul »

I am stuck at rank 5 for a good 2 days now, always losing from Hunters/Zoo with openings of Undertaker and tons of deathrattles, IF I don't draw the perfect countering hand and IF they miss a turn during midgame. Of course, any Paladin deck can win against them on paper, but I can't score anything better than 50/50, with many games just lost due to their amazing starts or my slow starts. 

Not saying that Paladin is not viable, because it is on its better spot since the time of Giant Control but I think that it's about time they considered a nerf to the Undertaker card (probably not increasing health but only power) since it's a nightmare to ladder against aggro decks that win during their first two turns effectively.

I don't think Paladin or Shaman or Rogue or even Control Hunter etc. are really going to be any fun to play until UT gets a nerf, it's just killing the diversity of the game enormously. Just like Hunter always has, with Zoo always taking some of the blame too.

Just a thought about the much wanted undertaker nerf i see on this site every 2 topics... Is it really required? I'm not trolling here, just asking.

Here's the way i see it. You play Hunter so basically you mulligan your starting hand heavily for it. You pack your deck with minions with Deathrattle to pump it up. You play a LOT of 1 mana minions who of course have very low stats. Most of the classes you play against are packing cards to counter it ASAP.

Druid has Wrath / Keeper of the Grove.

Mirror has Owl / Bow and obviously can "outundertaker" you.  

Mage has Frostbolt / Mana Wyrm.

Priest has Shadow Word Pain. (at the very least lol)

Rogue has Backstab / Poison Blade.

Shaman has Earth shock / Rockbiter Weapon / Lightning Bolt.

Warlock has Darkbomb and can also "outundertaker" you.

Warrior has Fiery War Axe / Execute and a lot of other tricks.

Paladin has the hardest way to remove it i agree, Owl or maybe Aldor until you can go Pyro + Equality.

So everyone has ways to get him out of the board. Now if they nerf it and it no longer gains Life, every minion in game kills it right away. What is the point of the card anymore? You actually go on a "limited" gamble here when you start packing Clockwork Gnome and such. Once you get rid of the undertaker Clockwork and Leper are just terrible minions to have on the board or draw later on during the game. It's a nightmare to see Undertaker die fast because you know that the rest of your minions are very poor in term of sticky. The get killed right away and your chances on winning are now very low unless you get some nasty top decks like UTH / Kill Command and such.

My point is, in the end i believe that we already have many tools to get rid of Undertaker and that the problem is more about the Hunter Hero Power that put you on a clock rather than Undertaker.

Just a thought, playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here i guess. People will probably believe that i'm absolutely wrong lol. Anyway...

Diversity of the game won't stand any chance as long as everyone feel like it's super important to get to Legend ASAP. They will keep playing whatever has the highest win ratio, the fastest game speed and the lowest Dust cost. And once they get to Rank 5 and keep getting stopped by Warrior Control or any other deck during 3 weeks and prevent them to get to Legend they will cry about how P2W decks are just stupid...

Undertaker is just the tip of the iceberg. The real problem is probably more on the way they designed some hero power and gave too much power to fast aggro decks.

Just my 2 cents :p