Yeah, that the right way to put it Zizka. No one is taking shoots against no one for playing whatever they like to play. We are against a card that breaks the balance of the meta because its a too fastplan B thats really hard to play against and, in most cases, impossible.
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Sire DenathriusNov 23, 2022(March of the Lich King Pre-Patch)
That’s something new that wasn’t there before. Normally aggro decks cap out around 5 mana +/- 1
Ah...aggro still does that i starting to see why you dont get the problem here. The problem is not that aggro plays Sire its that they CAN put Sire in the deck, you know why? because they have 2 mana summon 3 or 4 1/1, 2 mana 1/3 that becomes a 5/3, a location that transfor any minion in a 7/7. They have a "tech" card that its a 3/4 add 2 damage to your opp hand that scales. Those are not slow cards those are too fast cards in a meta were the best AoE in the game that is not on a Mage deck is 5 mana destro cards with 3 attack, sometimes destroy cards with 6 or less attack. You leave a big minion on board? too bad i will pay other 2 mana to get another 4 imps, play other curse, buff all my demons +2/+2 - "I guess you should stick with mage, slow player"
"oh you still manage to clear that? guess i will resummon my imps with a +2/+2 and put a 6/6 on the board" - "YOU STILL MANAGE TO CLEAN THAT AFTeR TAKING aNOTHER BIG HIT? guess now that is turn 10 i will play my 10 mana dealt 40 damage to the face gg wp!"
And just to make it clear that last part is the problem. Wild have waaay worse and more stupidly unbalance decks on the top ranks. There is too little people in wild high ranks that when you start to climb you will find yourself with the only tryhards that keep playing 3 broken meta decks there. So in that sense there is not a better envoirment in wild right now is just that people dont play Wild enough to complain about that. When Wild was super popular people was asking for nerf every 3 threads and stuff like that.
People in this thread is talking about S T A N D A R D not Wild, we get the idea everything is harder to play in wild (because everything is super broken in wildand decks dont work as they normally do because its Wild).
But them againt thats exactly the reason why Wild is not a good example of how the decks should work or anything at all. Thats is why a lot of players avoid wild even when they can stick with cards of the past they like. Because most of them become irrelevant or go into weird decks that you dont want to pilot. Can we go back to the topic? Because no one is telling something about how gross is the card that can nuke you from 30 to 0 on turn 10 just for playing on curve, go face most of the time and keep the board clear enough to dont die.
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Sire DenathriusNov 22, 2022(March of the Lich King Pre-Patch)
Many aggro decks 1. don’t tolerate mistakes 2. are easy to play to platinum but hard to play to high ranks. The reason for this is that with a shorter game plan and a decent opponent there is no room for mistakes.
Many control decks neither, take Big Priest on standard for example, you draw cards two early? you get both 8/8 on hand and now half of your deck is useless. You has to concede. You play "control mill druid" against mage, you keep all your accelerat spells and cards to bait counter spell: turns out the mage was actually mecha and now you will lose on turn 5. We can keep going with the examples both on standard, aggro decks have more safe gameplans because of denathrius covering their overcommit mistakes. Thats the point of the "aggro stuff" in this Thread that you are just avoiding because...you play wild and aggro is supposed to be hard in wild because of infinite healing weapon rogue and turn 4 big priest? - In Standard the most powerful decks are aggro and the ones with most play-rate are ALSO aggro. So regardless of how "not easy to play" aggro (zoo with some late game tools most of them) decks are on Standard they are obviusly the big winners of the format. Pure Long Game decks have really a HARD time dealing with all the free value of every single card.
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Sire DenathriusNov 22, 2022(March of the Lich King Pre-Patch)
I’d say that playing Implock and aggro Druid requires very little skill, especially Implock. There’s no strategy involved, Implock uses the exact same strategy in every game. It doesn’t matter what they play against, which makes me wonder how it can be fun in any way. It’s like playing chess and using the exact same strategy regardless of what the other player does, which an experienced player wouldn’t do. They adapt to the board. Implock requires no adaptation of any sort. It’s ok, but many players who reach legend on Implock wouldn’t be able to beat silver if they had to use a 40 cards deck which requires a more diverse gameplay. It’s ok. Let’s just not pretend that playing a Implock requires deep strategy, because it doesn’t.
Yeah suuure your 40 card minion pile shows what a complex deck is (beast hunter, ramp druid quest priest). Almost all viable decks have a set gameplan and wincon, that’s what makes them viable. Especially aggro mirrors are extremely decision heavy. For sure there are easy aggro decks, but there are also a lot of easy control decks
You still dont answer any of the arguments about the complexity of aggro decks may its just that you know that you cant answer you can just hold the argument "long game decks are not complex either" and hope that it holds but not really because no one is saying that one is more complex and the other less complex. People just agre that Aggro decks are in general more easy to pilot.
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Sire DenathriusNov 21, 2022(March of the Lich King Pre-Patch)
Hahaha here is the guy claiming control equals skill and aggro equals beginner decks.
It's objectively true that control decks are harder to play than aggro decks.
Nope it isn’t. Best example wild copper hunter, was very hard to play and an aggro deck
Will you deneid that the majority of Aggro decks are more easy to learn and play for beginner players than slow combo-control decks that required specific mulligans for certain matchups ? just to name one of the reasons why Aggro is waayy more intuitive to play for a new player.
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Sire DenathriusNov 21, 2022(March of the Lich King Pre-Patch)
That disqualifies your opinion on the game in general
Aggro decks are beginner friendly, that dont mean aggro decks are not strong or less skilled, is just a fact that their are more easy to pilot and have less space for mistakes. For example token druid aoe buff are just 1+ each normally that keep your board on 4 Attack normally and that prevent you for get target from AoE 5+ AoE from Priest of the 3- less attack AoE too. A lot of players know that 4 is the magic number but beginners will get a 4 attack board even if they overcommit half of the time for the cost of those spells. That is intended. To help players to learn faster how to use the deck.
He dont said that by any means. He said something that is very true. Denathrius is a card that rewar aggro player for actually losin the game on the normal terms of their decks. Which is kind of a problem because control decks have very limite ways to dealt with Denathrius himself right now and they cant use it in most of their decks (Priest cant, Warrior cant, Mage can but them againt mage is a long game anticontrol deck so that its not rare). Aggro need a card like Denatrius? i doubt so, hunter and druid have very good odds of end the game before turn 8 right now and i cant name a deck outside Mage that has a solid game plan to stop those decks right now even if you take Denathrius of the deck so...why dont make his Battle Cry start with 0 damage for example? So you ACTUALLY need outlast the control deck to get the kill.
A end game wincon that benefits too much from plays that your oponent is forced to do is just bad design in a lot of ways.
Sire Den. isnt even in top meta decks played in standard. Those complaining are in low elo or hardstuck. Check out HSreplay.net > Meta tab at top of page > you can see the tiers or you can go to sort by Class decks and see win % that way.
Sire Den is a card that takes a lot of turns, minions to set up. It's not that great. Same people complain about Sire probs complained about C'thun...
you mean the card i see at 10 cost in all the decks of the top tier classes is not Denathrius ? They usually dont get to play the card? yes but that is because you lose before they charge it to lethal. This is the thing tho...IF you manage to get the board they will Denathrius for 2X+ damage and you will lose most certanly. Thats the point of the complain "whenever i get the upper hand against my oponent i lose to Denathrius" Thats the problem, not Denathrius on curve being a overbrokencard.
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Yeah, that the right way to put it Zizka. No one is taking shoots against no one for playing whatever they like to play. We are against a card that breaks the balance of the meta because its a too fast plan B thats really hard to play against and, in most cases, impossible.
Ah...aggro still does that i starting to see why you dont get the problem here. The problem is not that aggro plays Sire its that they CAN put Sire in the deck, you know why? because they have 2 mana summon 3 or 4 1/1, 2 mana 1/3 that becomes a 5/3, a location that transfor any minion in a 7/7. They have a "tech" card that its a 3/4 add 2 damage to your opp hand that scales. Those are not slow cards those are too fast cards in a meta were the best AoE in the game that is not on a Mage deck is 5 mana destro cards with 3 attack, sometimes destroy cards with 6 or less attack. You leave a big minion on board? too bad i will pay other 2 mana to get another 4 imps, play other curse, buff all my demons +2/+2 - "I guess you should stick with mage, slow player"
"oh you still manage to clear that? guess i will resummon my imps with a +2/+2 and put a 6/6 on the board" - "YOU STILL MANAGE TO CLEAN THAT AFTeR TAKING aNOTHER BIG HIT? guess now that is turn 10 i will play my 10 mana dealt 40 damage to the face gg wp!"
And just to make it clear that last part is the problem. Wild have waaay worse and more stupidly unbalance decks on the top ranks. There is too little people in wild high ranks that when you start to climb you will find yourself with the only tryhards that keep playing 3 broken meta decks there. So in that sense there is not a better envoirment in wild right now is just that people dont play Wild enough to complain about that. When Wild was super popular people was asking for nerf every 3 threads and stuff like that.
People in this thread is talking about S T A N D A R D not Wild, we get the idea everything is harder to play in wild (because everything is super broken in wild and decks dont work as they normally do because its Wild).
But them againt thats exactly the reason why Wild is not a good example of how the decks should work or anything at all. Thats is why a lot of players avoid wild even when they can stick with cards of the past they like. Because most of them become irrelevant or go into weird decks that you dont want to pilot. Can we go back to the topic? Because no one is telling something about how gross is the card that can nuke you from 30 to 0 on turn 10 just for playing on curve, go face most of the time and keep the board clear enough to dont die.
Many control decks neither, take Big Priest on standard for example, you draw cards two early? you get both 8/8 on hand and now half of your deck is useless. You has to concede. You play "control mill druid" against mage, you keep all your accelerat spells and cards to bait counter spell: turns out the mage was actually mecha and now you will lose on turn 5. We can keep going with the examples both on standard, aggro decks have more safe gameplans because of denathrius covering their overcommit mistakes. Thats the point of the "aggro stuff" in this Thread that you are just avoiding because...you play wild and aggro is supposed to be hard in wild because of infinite healing weapon rogue and turn 4 big priest? - In Standard the most powerful decks are aggro and the ones with most play-rate are ALSO aggro. So regardless of how "not easy to play" aggro (zoo with some late game tools most of them) decks are on Standard they are obviusly the big winners of the format. Pure Long Game decks have really a HARD time dealing with all the free value of every single card.
You still dont answer any of the arguments about the complexity of aggro decks may its just that you know that you cant answer you can just hold the argument "long game decks are not complex either" and hope that it holds but not really because no one is saying that one is more complex and the other less complex. People just agre that Aggro decks are in general more easy to pilot.
Will you deneid that the majority of Aggro decks are more easy to learn and play for beginner players than slow combo-control decks that required specific mulligans for certain matchups ? just to name one of the reasons why Aggro is waayy more intuitive to play for a new player.
Aggro decks are beginner friendly, that dont mean aggro decks are not strong or less skilled, is just a fact that their are more easy to pilot and have less space for mistakes. For example token druid aoe buff are just 1+ each normally that keep your board on 4 Attack normally and that prevent you for get target from AoE 5+ AoE from Priest of the 3- less attack AoE too. A lot of players know that 4 is the magic number but beginners will get a 4 attack board even if they overcommit half of the time for the cost of those spells. That is intended. To help players to learn faster how to use the deck.
He dont said that by any means. He said something that is very true. Denathrius is a card that rewar aggro player for actually losin the game on the normal terms of their decks. Which is kind of a problem because control decks have very limite ways to dealt with Denathrius himself right now and they cant use it in most of their decks (Priest cant, Warrior cant, Mage can but them againt mage is a long game anticontrol deck so that its not rare). Aggro need a card like Denatrius? i doubt so, hunter and druid have very good odds of end the game before turn 8 right now and i cant name a deck outside Mage that has a solid game plan to stop those decks right now even if you take Denathrius of the deck so...why dont make his Battle Cry start with 0 damage for example? So you ACTUALLY need outlast the control deck to get the kill.
A end game wincon that benefits too much from plays that your oponent is forced to do is just bad design in a lot of ways.
you mean the card i see at 10 cost in all the decks of the top tier classes is not Denathrius ? They usually dont get to play the card? yes but that is because you lose before they charge it to lethal. This is the thing tho...IF you manage to get the board they will Denathrius for 2X+ damage and you will lose most certanly. Thats the point of the complain "whenever i get the upper hand against my oponent i lose to Denathrius" Thats the problem, not Denathrius on curve being a overbrokencard.